HBO Real Sports/Marist Poll About Concussions In Football

[ChicosBailBonds]

Will you just stop?  Seriously this is just another talking point that is wrapped in language an political bullsh*t, when in truth it is much more nuanced.

**The shortage of primary care physicians existed prior to ACA - simply put primary care is not a very lucrative field that has been beaten to death by insurance companies for years.

**This shortage is going to be exacerbated because more people will have insurance and will therefore be going to the doctor.  I'm not sure that is a bad thing.  People should go to the doctor.

It would be like going back to 1910 and proclaiming that we should stop manufacturing cars because we are creating a shortage of mechanics.

Yes, the shortage started many years ago because of other wonderful decisions we made.  That doesn't mean we aren't putting in on the fast track now, because we certainly are.  Sorry, I'm bias as I have way too many doctors in the family so I get to hear their points of view.  Guilty as charged.  My wife's father I assure you is doing backflips in his grave right now (received his med degree from Marquette).  

[brandx]

Yup, a lot did go for the money.   So as make it less and less of a desired job, where are the smart and talented people going to go....medicine?  LOL.   

Nothing like lowering the standard of care across the board.  What a deal.  Our race to the bottom in some of the things we do is awesome.

And all this after we just worked so hard to make teaching a more desirable job   

[tower912]

Government subsidized health care is the norm in nearly every other industrialized nation on the planet.    They still have people becoming doctors.   This is a change, adjustments will be made.    Just like the NFL has had to adjust to not leading with the helmet, hitting defenseless receivers, cutting down on hitting in practice......you know,  stuff to cut down on concussions.... it will get figured out.     Like not using the arm bar or putting two hands on the dribbler.   It is a change and it will take some time to figure out.      So it is with any change.    There will still be doctors in a generation and there will still be sports injuries in a generation and there will still be people complaining in a generation.  

[Lennys Tap]

I thought it was Syphilis...just keep your johnson in your pants and it is 100% preventable. 

Most preventable disease that's almost 100% lethal. Make jokes if you wish, but smoking kills a boatload of people. Brushing it off by saying that the smokers who die of lung cancer might have gotten it even if they didn't smoke so you can't blame it on cigarettes is a specious argument that would make even a tobacco lobbyist cringe.

I hate how litigious our society is. That said, when you knowingly produce a physically addictive product (and lie about it) and it turns out that said product kills people by the millions, don't you think those companies should have some liability?

[Hards Alumni]

Most preventable disease that's almost 100% lethal. Make jokes if you wish, but smoking kills a boatload of people. Brushing it off by saying that the smokers who die of lung cancer might have gotten it even if they didn't smoke so you can't blame it on cigarettes is a specious argument that would make even a tobacco lobbyist cringe.

I hate how litigious our society is. That said, when you knowingly produce a physically addictive product (and lie about it) and it turns out that said product kills people by the millions, don't you think those companies should have some liability?

Let me answer for him. 

No.  Because there is a chance that these people were predisposed to get lung cancer anyway. 

EVERYONE IS GOING TO DIE

/micdrop

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm hearing directly from doctors, not politicians....the actual people in the trenches that have to provide the services.  It's going to be SO AWESOME in the coming decade.  Just wait until next year when the employ mandate kicks in.  Millions of people ticked off now because they have been dropped, you haven't seen anything yet.  It will be on steroids next year.  Not that we weren't warned time and time again.

[4everwarriors]

So, you're hearin' from those money hungry sumbitches, hey?

[brandx]

I'm hearing directly from doctors, not politicians....the actual people in the trenches that have to provide the services.  It's going to be SO AWESOME in the coming decade.  Just wait until next year when the employ mandate kicks in.  Millions of people ticked off now because they have been dropped, you haven't seen anything yet.  It will be on steroids next year.  Not that we weren't warned time and time again.

People are dropped EVERY year. Prices rise EVERY year.

Yes - I think it will be So AWESOME.

[jesmu84]

I'm hearing directly from doctors, not politicians....the actual people in the trenches that have to provide the services.  It's going to be SO AWESOME in the coming decade.  Just wait until next year when the employ mandate kicks in.  Millions of people ticked off now because they have been dropped, you haven't seen anything yet.  It will be on steroids next year.  Not that we weren't warned time and time again.

If you can't afford healthcare, you shouldn't have it. Get rid of all government handouts - SS, Unemployment, Welfare, Food stamps, etc, etc. People will stop being lazy. Unemployment will decrease. The country will flourish. Let the private corporations take over. Give us freedoms. The government shouldn't be interfering with our lives as much (except women's healthcare). If people get left behind, so be it - only the strong/rich survive. /teal

I love biased rants. Let's do it again sometime.

The whole of the argument is so much more complicated than any one piece of legislature or tax or whatever.

[4everwarriors]

Inchin' toward the intended outcome------single payer system.

[forgetful]

Source?  The latest study, in fact, shows no statistically significant difference between the athlete population and the general population.  That may change, but that is the situation right now.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on the other stuff, but merely pointing out that more research needs to be done and the scientific community is going to require a bit more evidence than our wonderful media types and many of the chicken littles out there....thankfully.  The scientific community isn't there on this issue yet.

Oh, and WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE.    


I'm sure you would also agree, then, that since CTE cannot be tested in a living human being a story like this from CBS (the headline) is just poor journalism and a lot of less educated people will just believe it to be true.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57611388/cte-diagnosed-in-hall-of-famer-tony-dorsett-two-other-living-nfl-players-report/

Bringing this slightly back to the origin topic.

CTE can be tested in living people now...its just a very recent development and they conducted that test on Tony Dorsett and confirmed he does have CTE (aka accumulation of tau fibrils).  So the CBS headline is absolutely not poor journalism.

What I was indicating is that there is consensus amongst scientists/health professionals that repeated head trauma/concussions leads to neurodegenerative conditions.  No additional studies really necessary for this.

Further there is consensus that accumulation of tau fibrils correlates with neurodegenerative conditions.  Until recently, they couldn't correlate the cause of these tau fibrils to concussions/head trauma.  It will still be difficult to do that experiment (not possible to have proper controls).  Rather there will be a statistical correlation, not a true cause and effect determination. 

Regardless, this does not detract from the well documented studies demonstrating that repeated head trauma/concussions does lead to neurodegenerative conditions.

An unanswered question is whether the tau fibrils themselves are the cause of the neuodegenerative diseases or whether a precursor state (that is not imageable) is responsible for the neurological impairment (similar to the case with beta amyloid aggregation).

Fortunately, the scientists will answer these questions and will continue to ignore McCarthy as he has 0 credibility.

[ChicosBailBonds]

[forgetful]

Also, I read the article where the "consensus statement" was placed, and the point they are illustrating is not that CTE isn't caused by contact sports, rather that the appropriate double blind study (that would take 30-50 years to complete) hasn't been completed yet.  Rather the concept is based on 90 years of studies demonstrating that repeated head trauma leads to CTE.

It was meant to be interpreted by scientists, who would rationalize it correctly. 

Some of the contributors to that statement have came out and said that the reports that they are saying that CTE isn't related to contact sports is absurd as they are some of the leading experts saying that CTE is caused by contact sports. 

[jesmu84]

I've always kinda wondered, since I don't follow the sports, how do Australian rules football, rugby, etc compare to the NFL in terms of injuries, especially head injuries? They basically don't wear pads right?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Bringing this slightly back to the origin topic.

CTE can be tested in living people now...its just a very recent development and they conducted that test on Tony Dorsett and confirmed he does have CTE (aka accumulation of tau fibrils).  So the CBS headline is absolutely not poor journalism.

What I was indicating is that there is consensus amongst scientists/health professionals that repeated head trauma/concussions leads to neurodegenerative conditions.  No additional studies really necessary for this.

Further there is consensus that accumulation of tau fibrils correlates with neurodegenerative conditions.  Until recently, they couldn't correlate the cause of these tau fibrils to concussions/head trauma.  It will still be difficult to do that experiment (not possible to have proper controls).  Rather there will be a statistical correlation, not a true cause and effect determination.  

Regardless, this does not detract from the well documented studies demonstrating that repeated head trauma/concussions does lead to neurodegenerative conditions.

An unanswered question is whether the tau fibrils themselves are the cause of the neuodegenerative diseases or whether a precursor state (that is not imageable) is responsible for the neurological impairment (similar to the case with beta amyloid aggregation).

Fortunately, the scientists will answer these questions and will continue to ignore McCarthy as he has 0 credibility.

Not yet.  UCLA has developed a test that identifies SOME CTE traits in the living, but it does not fully replicate the CTE post mortem test.  Not yet, anyway.  UCLA acknowledges this and one of the push backs from other doctors, researchers is that the traits it does identify are also present in other brain disorders that are not CTE.



"CTE is the degenerative brain disease linked to concussions and repetitive brain trauma and thought to be incredibly common among former football players. Currently, it can only be fully diagnosed postmortem, but it has been found in more than 50 deceased professional football players. As the PBS Frontline documentary League of Denial chronicled, CTE was at the center of the National Football League’s denial of the dangers of concussions, as the league tried to cover up the links between brain trauma suffered on the football field and problems, including dementia, memory loss, depression, and suicidal thoughts, that CTE can cause. Dr. Bennet Omalu, one of the researchers who first identified CTE and was subsequently silenced by the NFL, is among the doctors involved in UCLA’s testing.

It still isn’t possible to diagnose CTE in living players, but researchers involved in the project told ESPN that identifying signs could help both in developing a live diagnosis and in figuring out how to treat, manage, and possibly cure the disease. It could also help answer one of the key questions about CTE and football: exactly how prevalent is the disease in former players?

[forgetful]

Not yet.  UCLA has developed a test that identifies SOME CTE traits in the living, but it does not fully replicate the CTE post mortem test.  Not yet, anyway.  UCLA acknowledges this and one of the push backs from other doctors, researchers is that the traits it does identify are also present in other brain disorders that are not CTE.



"CTE is the degenerative brain disease linked to concussions and repetitive brain trauma and thought to be incredibly common among former football players. Currently, it can only be fully diagnosed postmortem, but it has been found in more than 50 deceased professional football players. As the PBS Frontline documentary League of Denial chronicled, CTE was at the center of the National Football League’s denial of the dangers of concussions, as the league tried to cover up the links between brain trauma suffered on the football field and problems, including dementia, memory loss, depression, and suicidal thoughts, that CTE can cause. Dr. Bennet Omalu, one of the researchers who first identified CTE and was subsequently silenced by the NFL, is among the doctors involved in UCLA’s testing.

It still isn’t possible to diagnose CTE in living players, but researchers involved in the project told ESPN that identifying signs could help both in developing a live diagnosis and in figuring out how to treat, manage, and possibly cure the disease. It could also help answer one of the key questions about CTE and football: exactly how prevalent is the disease in former players?

The new imaging technique can identify tau aggregation in the brains of living individuals.  That correlated with cognitive impairment in my mind and many scientists/doctors is a diagnosis.  The authors are going to take the cautious approach and say it is not possible yet...why?

Because the only accepted diagnosis is to analyze the brains of dead individuals to confirm the presence of abnormal tau plaques.  Unless Dorsett or others that have undergone the new UCLA test want to allow themselves to be autopsied to confirm that the buildup observed in the imaging approach correlate well with those in autopsies in humans, then it will not be confirmed as a "diagnostic tool."

As for the traits being observed in other illnesses besides CTE...you are correct, because CTE is specific to the same type of neurodegenerative process with the caveat of being caused by repeated head trauma.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Face it Chico, your company threw a fat pile of cash at a long-term loser.

[Pakuni]

I'm hearing directly from doctors, not politicians....the actual people in the trenches that have to provide the services.  It's going to be SO AWESOME in the coming decade.  Just wait until next year when the employ mandate kicks in.  Millions of people ticked off now because they have been dropped, you haven't seen anything yet.  It will be on steroids next year.  Not that we weren't warned time and time again.

Anecdotal evidence from a handful of personal associates is always the best evidence.
Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[keefe]

Anecdotal evidence from a handful of personal associates is always the best evidence.
Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Precisely how you and a handful of like-minded cronies pile on here against anyone with a contrary position. Pardon the pun but, "Physician, heal thyself!"

[ChicosBailBonds]

Anecdotal evidence from a handful of personal associates is always the best evidence.
Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

I admitted my bias, try it yourself.  By the way, it's not just anecdotal.  It's funny seeing how many doctors are against this (cue the but but but the AMA supported it....LOL).

You haven't seen anything yet with this thing.  Wait until the 3 month payment grace period actually starts to trigger and the doctors and insurance companies have to pay for all the deadbeats...that's right...what do you think happens then...section 156.270..that's what happens on a 11,000 page bill is passed with no one knowing what is in it. 

The best line I have heard from doctors.  "If you need to pass it to see what's in it we call that a STOOL SAMPLE".  Never has something so proper ever been said.

[jesmu84]

nm

[4everwarriors]

Yo, this country's gone to hell in a hand basket.

[Pakuni]

I admitted my bias, try it yourself.  By the way, it's not just anecdotal.  It's funny seeing how many doctors are against this (cue the but but but the AMA supported it....LOL).

So the largest doctors' association supports it, but you know  doctors who oppose it, ergo, your opinion is right?
Got it.

What is my bias, by the way? I haven't said anything pro or con the ACA. I'm just poking fun at the notion that your chats with a handful of self-selected doctors means Armageddon is just around the corner.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It's going to be A W E S O M E

[keefe]

So the largest doctors' association supports it, but you know  doctors who oppose it, ergo, your opinion is right?
Got it.

What is my bias, by the way? I haven't said anything pro or con the ACA. I'm just poking fun at the notion that your chats with a handful of self-selected doctors means Armageddon is just around the corner.

So you are dismissive of intel from troops in the trenches? Before an AFSOC team goes behind the lines it is provided reams of imint, sigint, and elint from NSA, CIA and the respective service intel communities. But no team ever goes outside the wire without finding every swinging dick who has been in your oparea recently so you can pick his brain for every possible piece of information that will not just help you kill tangos but will keep your men safe.

There is nothing trivial about first hand evidence. Overhead imagery and Predator feeds are great but I place greater value on the word of the Ranger or Seal who has crawled on those rocks. The AMA might endorse something but its perspective is materially different from the doctor providing primary care.