[Paint Touches] Is Marquette a top-20 program?

[PaintTouches]

Andy Glockner says no. We respond.

http://painttouches.com/2013/09/23/is-marquette-a-top-20-program/

[LloydMooresLegs]

Hard to argue with much of what he has to say-- it isn't that negative.  Strotty makes a storng case in response, but it is hard to judge (as Strotty acknowledges) until we see who is ahead of MU.  I would think that MU should be top 15 to 18, but we shall see...

[🏀]

Hard to argue with much of what he has to say-- it isn't that negative.  Strotty makes a storng case in response, but it is hard to judge (as Strotty acknowledges) until we see who is ahead of MU.  I would think that MU should be top 15 to 18, but we shall see...

Strotty didn't write that one.

[Dawson Rental]

You have to almost ignore recent history to put UCLA in front of Marquette.  On the other hand, their past is the gold standard for basketball programs.

Thank god that ability/inclination to land a four or five star big man wasn't a part of the criteria!

[LloydMooresLegs]

Strotty didn't write that one.

thx; good call

[LAZER]

I'm having a really hard time coming up with 20 programs in front of MU. I also don't see the point in using hypotheticals to make your case.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You have to almost ignore recent history to put UCLA in front of Marquette.  On the other hand, their past is the gold standard for basketball programs.

Thank god that ability/inclination to land a four or five star big man wasn't a part of the criteria!

How recent?  UCLA has three Final Fours in the last 7 years and four conference championships....that seems pretty recent. 

[bilsu]

UCLA also has a good chance at recruiting a McDonals's all-american. The biggest argument I would have that MU is not a top 20 program is the fact that they virtually never have any interest from a potential McDonald's all-american. That might change in the future if Buzz can keep his success going, but right we have not been able to recruit a top 25 player.

[Atticus]

Recent history doesn't mean anything. We are the only team from 2003 to not make it back to the final 4, I believe. What does that mean? Nothing.

[MuMark]

My guess is his top 20 are in no order
Duke
NC
Kentucky
AZ
Kansas
Michigan
Michigan State
OSU
Wisconsin
IU
Florida
Louisville
Syracuse
Memphis
UConn
Gonzaga
Georgetown
Illinois
UCLA
Nova

15 seem pretty obvious to me....the last 5 or so could easily include Marquette but he has us at 21 or 22 which is no big slight

[Dawson Rental]

How recent?  UCLA has three Final Fours in the last 7 years and four conference championships....that seems pretty recent. 

I stand corrected.

[LAZER]

My guess is his top 20 are in no order
Duke
NC
Kentucky
AZ
Kansas
Michigan
Michigan State
OSU
Wisconsin
IU
Florida
Louisville
Syracuse
Memphis
UConn
Gonzaga
Georgetown
Illinois
UCLA
Nova

15 seem pretty obvious to me....the last 5 or so could easily include Marquette but he has us at 21 or 22 which is no big slight

That seems to be the most likely. I have a tough time with Memphis, Illinois, Villanova and maybe Gonzaga.

[Atticus]

I look at conference affiliation. We don't register when it comes to head-to-head against Big East teams. No one cares about our history when it comes to conferences. Just a fact.

[79Warrior]

How recent?  UCLA has three Final Fours in the last 7 years and four conference championships....that seems pretty recent. 

True Dat. Its laughable to place UCLA behind MU.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think we are omitted because of two things:

1. Glockner doesn't buy into the new Big East. (Though I think its funny that he counts it as a strength for Creighton)
2. He also believes that Buzz will leave after this season

Even with these possibilities I think we are a top 15 program in recent history. But I wear some mega blue and gold goggles

[The Lens]

This the most asinine thing I have ever read.  We've made 3 straight Sweet 16's and an Elite 8 and own the nation's SIXTH longest NCAA tourney appearance streak.  And we made all those NCAA's playing in the nation's most difficult conference. 

So he's not sold on the NBE...so his perception of current is heavily based on future?  Even still, our recruiting class in 2013 was ranked 12th - so we have some future upside too.  I just don't get this.

[MU82]

An awful lot in the article is based on Buzz's possible (perhaps even imminent) departure.

[brewcity77]

An awful lot in the article is based on Buzz's possible (perhaps even imminent) departure.

Which at this point is ridiculous. I'm not saying he stays, but he's turned down job after job for years. I know...none of those jobs were Texas, but they were Oklahoma, Oregon, Arkansas, and Texas A&M, all significantly larger schools with more money than Marquette has. And by the same token, Texas isn't Indiana, Duke, Kansas, or UNC.

Regardless, this program survived the loss of Crean and could survive the loss of Buzz. The budget, facilities, and proven track record of success over 2 coaches shows this program can succeed at a high level. With Buzz, we are definitely top-20, especially when you factor in future potential. Even without him, I still think you can argue us ahead of Maryland, Illinois, Gonzaga, and the other schools fighting for those last spots.

[Lennys Tap]

IMO we are somewhere between 15 and 20. I think we reached the top 20 (as a program) last year or the year before.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm kind of contradicting myself here, but maybe we shouldn't be in the top 20. Last year ESPN ranked their top 50 programs of all time. We were ranked 17th. I remember thinking "yep, that's about where we are at." That ranking was including when were dominant in the 70s. So if you take out the 70s, is it really that surprising that someone would perceive us as top 25 rather than top 20?

I guess I need to see the list of who's above us before I can make a judgement.

[WarriorFan]

IF you take all the modern multiple tournament winners:
UCLA   11   
Kentucky   8   
Indiana   5   
North Carolina   5   
Duke   4   
Connecticut   3   1
Kansas   3   
Louisville   3   
Florida   2   
Michigan State   2   
North Carolina State   2   
(11 teams)
which means throwing out Oklahoma A&M, Cincy, and USF because they're not "modern" multiple winners,
Then add the "modern" single winners:
Syracuse
Maryland
Arizona
Arkansas
michigan
Villanova
NC State
Michigan State
Marquette
excluding UNLV, of course, because they "might" have cheated,
THEN you have the real TOP 20.
It's based on results... not based on if your coach might leave next year!

[frozena pizza]

Eh, I don't think this is so bad.  When ESPN put out it's 50 in 50, they had us at #17, which is probably about right.  Glockner seems to have moved us down a few slots because of the uncertainty of the new conference and Buzz's future at MU.  Whether there is anything to these concerns, I do think many national analysts view Marquette as having a lower ceiling than most of the programs that will be listed in the top 20.  

Yes, in 2003, we made it to the Final Four and had a lottery pick who became a NBA superstar.  We love to talk about our run of tournament appearances and sweet sixteens, but Memphis and Illinois have appeared in title games since our 2003 run.  Villanova has a final four and a #1 seed since then.  Gonzaga was ranked #1 going into the tournament last year.  Yes, we have had good recruiting classes, but it's not like we are getting MD All-Americans.  Just saying it's a close call and whether we come in #18 or #22 in one person's list doesn't really matter.

[KenoshaWarrior]

Memphis should be ahead of us.  Illinois not at all

[bilsu]

IF you take all the modern multiple tournament winners:
UCLA   11   
Kentucky   8   
Indiana   5   
North Carolina   5   
Duke   4   
Connecticut   3   1
Kansas   3   
Louisville   3   
Florida   2   
Michigan State   2   
North Carolina State   2   
(11 teams)
which means throwing out Oklahoma A&M, Cincy, and USF because they're not "modern" multiple winners,
Then add the "modern" single winners:
Syracuse
Maryland
Arizona
Arkansas
michigan
Villanova
NC State
Michigan State
Marquette
excluding UNLV, of course, because they "might" have cheated,
THEN you have the real TOP 20.
It's based on results... not based on if your coach might leave next year!

Modern to me would be champions after the tournament went to a field of 64.

[LAZER]

Memphis should be ahead of us.  Illinois not at all

I don't think either should.

Pastner's future is just as big of a question mark as Buzz without as much proven success. They play in a worse conference and their program was built by a coach who is no longer there.  Both schools have great fanbases and big budgets, but if Pastner leaves, I think that program is in worse shape than MU.