2013 NFC North/NFL Thread

[NavinRJohnson]

FWIW, NFL experts on twitter blowing up saying trade Cutler after the tender.

I've been on the side of the franchise tag, but with every win, their draft position gets worse, Jays value (to the Bears) declines, and the decision just gets tougher. More and more, I think they're going to just let him walk. More and more I think that may be the right decision.

[wadesworld]

Anybody think Jay Cutler would be 21 for 27 with 263 yards, 2 touchdowns and 0 interceptions through just over a half in these conditions?  Keep telling yourself he's the better starting quarterback, but that would be continuing to ignore the facts.  Cutler has all the measurables but none of the intangibles or the ability to play to a game plan.  McCown is the opposite.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Anybody think Jay Cutler would be 21 for 27 with 263 yards, 2 touchdowns and 0 interceptions through just over a half in these conditions?  Keep telling yourself he's the better starting quarterback, but that would be continuing to ignore the facts.  Cutler has all the measurables but none of the intangibles or the ability to play to a game plan.  McCown is the opposite.

Why do you care? Youre not even a Bears fan.

[NavinRJohnson]

Dallas looking a bit like the Packers on Thanksgiving. For the time being, beginning to look more and more like that Packer-bear game at the end of the year could be a thing.

[NavinRJohnson]

Dallas looking a bit lot like the Packers on Thanksgiving. For the time being, beginning to look more and more like that Packer-bear game at the end of the year could be a thing.

Just had to fix the above.

[wadesworld]

Why do you care? Youre not even a Bears fan.

Just think it's funny that Bears fans think they're better off with a guy who turns the ball over but might hit a long play once a game vs. a guy who is consistent and values the football.  It's not a coincidence that the team who wins the turnover battle almost always wins in the NFL.  Jay Cutler has 159 total touchdowns to 172 total turnovers.  That is not very good.  In fact, that is embarrassing.  He has also played in a total of 2 playoff games in his career.  Not the kind of quarterback I would want under center, personally.

For comparison's sake, Aaron Rodgers has 261 total touchdowns to 99 total turnovers.  Tom Brady has 486 total touchdowns compared to 251 total turnovers.  Peyton Manning has 534 total touchdowns compared to 313 total turnovers.  Drew Brees has 389 total touchdowns compared to 262 total turnovers.

Even a guy like Philip Rivers who I consider to be the most like Jay Cutler in that he has all the physical tools but just can't put it together mentally and is very turnover prone because he relies on his physical gifts and lacks fundamentals has a total of 227 touchdowns compared to 183 total turnovers.  Tony Romo with 255 total touchdowns compared to 149 total turnover.  Matthew Stafford 120 touchdowns compared to 99 total turnovers.  Matt Schaub 135 total touchdowns to 122 total turnovers (bad).  Eli Manning 248 total touchdowns to 252 total turnovers (awful).  Matt Ryan 162 total touchdowns to 110 total turnovers.  Joe Flacco 147 total touchdowns to 141 total turnovers (bad).  Ben Rothlisberger 252 total touchdowns to 209 total touchdowns.  Even the Ol' Gunslinger Brett Favre had 567 total touchdowns to 542 total turnovers.

Of all these quarterbacks Jay Cutler is far and away the worst in total touchdowns compared to total turnovers and in ratios of touchdowns to turnovers.  Jay Cutler is a really, really bad quarterback.

[JWags85]

My only contribution to this argument that has been beaten to death is McCown has been throwing to the best 1-2 WR combo in the league right now.  Never in his career has Cutler had those targets, even the first half of the season where he was having a good year.  Jeffrey has exploded the last few weeks and made McCown's job alot easier.  Just 2 short years ago it was Johnny Knox and Roy Williams.

Jay Cutler is a really, really bad quarterback.

That's just a dumb, hyperbolic statement.  Because he's not a HOF QB like listed above, he's suddenly Blaine Gabbert.  Ok cool.

[wadesworld]

My only contribution to this argument that has been beaten to death is McCown has been throwing to the best 1-2 WR combo in the league right now.  Never in his career has Cutler had those targets, even the first half of the season where he was having a good year.  Jeffrey has exploded the last few weeks and made McCown's job alot easier.  Just 2 short years ago it was Johnny Knox and Roy Williams.

That's just a dumb, hyperbolic statement.  Because he's not a HOF QB like listed above, he's suddenly Blaine Gabbert.  Ok cool.

That makes absolutely no sense. The Bears did not trade for Alshon, Brandon, and Bennet after Cutler got hurt. And again, you know your quarterback is bad when you're saying he was "having a good year" and "maybe his best year in his career" when he had 1 more touchdown than he had turnover. Probably not a coincidence they're blowing up since he got hurt.

And the Hall of Famers listed above? Some are, sure. But Matt Ryan, Phillip Rivers, Tony Romo, Eli Manning, Ben Rothlisberger, Joe Flacco, Matt Schaub, Matthew Stafford? Uhh...

Again, though, just ignore the numbers and facts. Not sure how a guy who has 13 more career turnovers than touchdowns and 1 career playoff appearance/win can be looked at as anything other than a bad quarterback.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

I would still absolutely take Cutler, no question in my mind. Bears dont beat Cinci without him and they beat Minnesota last week if he was healthy.

[JWags85]

That makes absolutely no sense. The Bears did not trade for Alshon, Brandon, and Bennet after Cutler got hurt. And again, you know your quarterback is bad when you're saying he was "having a good year" and "maybe his best year in his career" when he had 1 more touchdown than he had turnover. Probably not a coincidence they're blowing up since he got hurt.

And the Hall of Famers listed above? Some are, sure. But Matt Ryan, Phillip Rivers, Tony Romo, Eli Manning, Ben Rothlisberger, Joe Flacco, Matt Schaub, Matthew Stafford? Uhh...

Again, though, just ignore the numbers and facts. Not sure how a guy who has 13 more career turnovers than touchdowns and 1 career playoff appearance/win can be looked at as anything other than a bad quarterback.

I stated it earlier, but subtracting the Lions game (in which his protection was as bad as it was when he was getting hit 15 times a game, uncommon for this year), up until his injury, his QBR was top 5 in the league. 10 TDs, 3 INTs in those 5 games.  Thats what I was referring to.  If he wasn't having a better year, none of this contract talk would ever have come up.  They'd let him walk.  Anyone who watched Cutler leading the offense early in the season saw the difference.  If he doesn't hurt his groin and those numbers had continued, he gets a deal no question.

Cutler has had the keys to a competent offense with weapons for less than a half season.  McCown had it the entire time.  To compare the last few years with a ramshackle line, a dumbass OC, and scrubs at WR to the Bears offensive tools at McCown's disposal now isn't fair.  Alshon broke out, with Cutler, in the NO game and has continued to improve like you would expect a wildly talented 2nd year WR to, it has nothing to do with QB play, I was referring to the timing.  At the beginning of the season, Cutler was still relying on Marshall and Bennett, but now the passing game has opened up even more cause teams can no longer double team Marshall or Jeffrey will eat them alive.  You put Cutler back at the helm and he will put up similarly gaudy numbers.  For as much as the defense has evaporated, this offense has continued to progress, even when Trestman makes head scratching decisions.

But if you want to say that the offense has exploded and a WR broke out because of a 35 year old journeyman QB in a way that Cutler couldn't, go for it.  You put McCown at the helm of the Lovie Smith offense, and he would be mocked and deemed "really, really bad" as well.  QBs are given far too much credit and shouldered with far too much blame depending on team performance.

[Dish]

I just landed in Seattle and missed the second half, but to not punt once, in that weather is incredible.

[MerrittsMustache]

Heard that as well. I just don't think they'll get much of anything for him in that scenario. Better be chain you have a deal worked out.

The team could franchise him so that he's under their control but then allow him to unofficially work out a contract extension with Tennessee (or whatever team). They make the trade, Titans tear up the franchise contract and sign him long-term.

There's no doubt that Cutler is a better QB than McCown and any rookie QB the Bears might draft (McCarron? Fales?). However, with as bad as the D has been, this team isn't going anywhere regardless of who's under center. Emery may need to sacrifice some production at QB (i.e. trade Cutler) in order to be able to spend more money fixing the defense.

[damuts222]

Cutler is still the better option.  Give him the reins, if he fails to deliver then your decision is made for you.

Facts:

- The offensive line was re-built, it takes time to mesh.  Mills, Bushrod, Long, etc.
- New head coach, new offense and new offensive coordinator, how many times has this happened in the last few years to the Bears...
- Passing defense rankings w/McCown, Rams 21st, Cowboys 32nd, Vikings 30th, RAVENS 13th, Packers 20th, Redskins 26th.  Besides Ravens these teams are bad on defense.

  It takes time for a team to mesh especially given the roster and coaching changes in the past offseason.

[Dish]

With a decent sample size available now, I think it's a real conversation at this point. The question though to me isn't "who's better?", it's "which allocation of funds makes you compete for a Super Bowl?". Franchising Cutler would be $16 million. Any long term deal with signing bonus is at a minimum in that same neighborhood, but not just for one year, for multiple years. We'll stick to $16 million, Bears still would need a back up as well as McCown's deal is up. From a talent standpoint, how much do you value Cutler's WAR above McCown's? If the argument is made that McCown is only valuable to the Bears in Trestman's system (quite fair argument), then you could further the argument not to pay Cutler.

To me, it comes down to Cutler at $16 mil per year versus McCown at $5 mil per year plus how you allocate that other $11 million. Is Cutler worth that extra $11 million?

[GGGG]

One conclusion I can draw from this season.  Phil Emery has done a pretty good job so far.  And when you look at what Kansas City is doing with a real football coach, you could draw the conclusion that Emery had a significant impact on their improvement as well.

[JWags85]

With a decent sample size available now, I think it's a real conversation at this point. The question though to me isn't "who's better?", it's "which allocation of funds makes you compete for a Super Bowl?". Franchising Cutler would be $16 million. Any long term deal with signing bonus is at a minimum in that same neighborhood, but not just for one year, for multiple years. We'll stick to $16 million, Bears still would need a back up as well as McCown's deal is up. From a talent standpoint, how much do you value Cutler's WAR above McCown's? If the argument is made that McCown is only valuable to the Bears in Trestman's system (quite fair argument), then you could further the argument not to pay Cutler.

To me, it comes down to Cutler at $16 mil per year versus McCown at $5 mil per year plus how you allocate that other $11 million. Is Cutler worth that extra $11 million?

This is the more interesting argument.  What terrifies me is looking around at most of the QBs in the league.  While McCown is performing fantastically (even the biggest Cutler supporters don't deny that fact), his age and his prior career (which suggests a regression to the mean at some point) are what worries me.  That $11 million saved, while allocated to improving defense, also comes with the burden of finding a QB in the draft.  The Bears aren't going to be drafting high enough to get a stud, so its a crapshoot.  And the Brown's search for QB replacements this season has shown there isn't a ton of quality out there.  So you may end up with someone like Schaub, who is also not young.  If the Bears could somehow get Cutler in range of $10mm, which I don't think is likely thanks to Flacco's dumb ass, then its an easier decision.

[Dish]

One conclusion I can draw from this season.  Phil Emery has done a pretty good job so far.  And when you look at what Kansas City is doing with a real football coach, you could draw the conclusion that Emery had a significant impact on their improvement as well.

Agreed. However (and every GM doesn't bat 1.000), picking Shea over Chandler Jones as his first ever pick will haunt him.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I just landed in Seattle and missed the second half, but to not punt once, in that weather is incredible.

D A L L A S  C O W B O Y S


Three games this year that had no punts, two against Dallas.  Dallas also had one game in which only one punt was done.  On pace to give up 6,800 yards, the 2nd most in NFL history and they still have an outside shot of the all-time record.

[brandx]

D A L L A S  C O W B O Y S


Three games this year that had no punts, two against Dallas.  Dallas also had one game in which only one punt was done.  On pace to give up 6,800 yards, the 2nd most in NFL history and they still have an outside shot of the all-time record.

Gotta agree- -this is the worst defense I have ever seen in the NFL.

[brandx]

One conclusion I can draw from this season.  Phil Emery has done a pretty good job so far.  And when you look at what Kansas City is doing with a real football coach, you could draw the conclusion that Emery had a significant impact on their improvement as well.

We don't know yet what KC is - only beat one team w/ a winning record -Philly - and that was early when they were really struggling.

Per Emery - he did an outstanding job building the O-Line, but this off-season will tell us everything about him. Obviously, he has to decide about cutler (I'd be shocked at a long-term contract), but he also has to re-build a brutally awful defense that could lose Peppers, Tillman and Jenkins.

He was put in an awful place by the previous regime. Tillman is 33 and injury prone. Jenkins is 30 - they need him but is he worth a big contract at that age. And while Briggs is under contract, approaching his mid-30s, we will start to see a decline.

Other than O-Line and receivers, the entire team needs to be re-built. Even RB as Forte approaches 30 and it's easy to look at history and see when RBs start to decline.

If he has this team competing for Division crown in 2 years, he is a miracle worker. We'll see.

[GGGG]

Agreed. However (and every GM doesn't bat 1.000), picking Shea over Chandler Jones as his first ever pick will haunt him.

Yeah...and Ron Wolf drafted Jon Michels back in '96.  (Of course he was going to take Ray Lewis...even had him on the phone.)

[Dish]

Yeah...and Ron Wolf drafted Jon Michels back in '96.  (Of course he was going to take Ray Lewis...even had him on the phone.)

Never heard that before, good and interesting, love nuggets like that.

[GGGG]

Never heard that before, good and interesting, love nuggets like that.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/ravens-lewis-went-a-pick-too-soon-for-packers-308j3sf-189135481.html

[muarmy81]

Why do you care? Youre not even a Bears fan.

Because some packer fans are upset with their backup and feel it necessary to stir the pot...

[Lennys Tap]

D A L L A S  C O W B O Y S


Three games this year that had no punts, two against Dallas.  Dallas also had one game in which only one punt was done.  On pace to give up 6,800 yards, the 2nd most in NFL history and they still have an outside shot of the all-time record.

How 'bout them 'Boys?