Florida, Florida, Florida

[StillAWarrior]

Two pieces of evidence he was scared:
1. He ran
2. The testimony from the friend with whom he was speaking while being followed.

Honest follow up ... other than the aforementioned, what further evidence might you imagine to indicate he was scared, or at least apprehensive, about being followed by a stranger?

Number 2 is what I was really asking about.  I didn't know if there was testimony that he told his friend that he was scared.  I didn't hear all of her testimony and I haven't read the transcript.  Obviously, running is evidence that he was scared.  It is circumstantial and could just also be seen as evidence of other things.

[Lennys Tap]

This is much more about politics than justice or a search for the truth. Both "sides" have a false narrative they're trying to push - neighborhoods overrun by violent packs of young black men or a racist America where it's open season on young black men. Initially, the local authorities filed NO charges against their civilian "watch commander". Pretty amazing. After the media, the NAACP and our justice department put on the pressure a special counsel decided to charge Zimmerman with 2nd degree MURDER. Equally amazing. This was a tragedy where mistakes by both parties resulted in a horrific outcome. George Zimmerman should shoulder considerable blame/responsibility for his part. And some punishment. Anyone so far to the right not to see that needs an adjustment to their prescription. But he isn't a murderer, and anyone so far to the left to believe he is needs a similar adjustment.

[MerrittsMustache]

This is much more about politics than justice or a search for the truth. Both "sides" have a false narrative they're trying to push - neighborhoods overrun by violent packs of young black men or a racist America where it's open season on young black men. Initially, the local authorities filed NO charges against their civilian "watch commander". Pretty amazing. After the media, the NAACP and our justice department put on the pressure a special counsel decided to charge Zimmerman with 2nd degree MURDER. Equally amazing. This was a tragedy where mistakes by both parties resulted in a horrific outcome. George Zimmerman should shoulder considerable blame/responsibility for his part. And some punishment. Anyone so far to the right not to see that needs an adjustment to their prescription. But he isn't a murderer, and anyone so far to the left to believe he is needs a similar adjustment.

It may not be court-order and it may not be enough in some people's mind, but George Zimmerman is mostly definitely facing a "punishment" for his actions.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I can't really argue with that. I think GZ got caught up in the moment and truly believed that he was going to play an integral role in arresting the person who had been breaking into homes in his neighborhood. I don't think he necessarily went about things in the right fashion, but he wasn't completely wrong either, if that makes sense.  

I'd be willing to bet that there's a significantly higher number of people who keep guns in their cars than you and I realize. I happen to know 2 of those people and I never would have guessed it had they not told me.

Yea, I agree with this.

As far as the firearm, I only make the comment because there is a lot more work and responsibility to carrying a firearm, and he was willing to do that... it's not unreasonable to ask that he keep a vest and flashlight in his car if he was really interested in PREVENTING crime.

But, crime prevention isn't very satisfying. Apprehension provides instant gratification.

[Lennys Tap]

It may not be court-order and it may not be enough in some people's mind, but George Zimmerman is mostly definitely facing a "punishment" for his actions.

I don't disagree, but a year or two in the joint would have ultimately served justice, Zimmerman and the Martin family better.

[Lennys Tap]

But, crime prevention isn't very satisfying. Apprehension provides instant gratification.

Crime "prevention" only works in the moment. The minute the police presence, neighborhood watch folks, etc. are gone the criminal is back in business. Apprehension leads to (hopefully) incarceration, erasing the possibility of crime perpetrated by that individual for a much longer time.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Crime "prevention" only works in the moment. The minute the police presence, neighborhood watch folks, etc. are gone the criminal is back in business. Apprehension leads to (hopefully) incarceration, erasing the possibility of crime perpetrated by that individual for a much longer time.

To me, prevention/presence can last a lot longer.

In general, most thefts and crime are based upon opportunity and ease. If there are people walking around a neighborhood being vigilant, if people put there stuff away and lock their doors, etc. etc. it goes a long way to prevent criminal activity.

Apprehension takes a bad guy off of the street, but it doesn't do a ton to prevent crime in the future (another guy could take his place, or he could eventually come back).

Anyways, my point is that prevention isn't very glamorous and takes hours of time (boring).

Apprehension includes a rush of adrenaline and immediate satisfaction.

[StillAWarrior]

To me, prevention/presence can last a lot longer.

In general, most thefts and crime are based upon opportunity and ease. If there are people walking around a neighborhood being vigilant, if people put there stuff away and lock their doors, etc. etc. it goes a long way to prevent criminal activity.

Apprehension takes a bad guy off of the street, but it doesn't do a ton to prevent crime in the future (another guy could take his place, or he could eventually come back).

Anyways, my point is that prevention isn't very glamorous and takes hours of time (boring).

Apprehension includes a rush of adrenaline and immediate satisfaction.

My personal belief is that there is a middle ground between prevention and apprehension:  observation.  I believe that this was what Zimmerman had in mind that night -- try to keep an eye on Martin until the cops arrived.  Once he lost sight of him, I think this included looking around for him.  Others obviously think he had different plans that night.  Only one person knows for sure.

[Lennys Tap]

To me, prevention/presence can last a lot longer.

In general, most thefts and crime are based upon opportunity and ease. If there are people walking around a neighborhood being vigilant, if people put there stuff away and lock their doors, etc. etc. it goes a long way to prevent criminal activity.

 

Wow. It's your fault, you didn't lock the door. If only women didn't wear short skirts they wouldn't get raped.

Sorry, I think the only solution is getting robbers, rapists, etc. off the street - something you can't do unless you "apprehend" them.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Wow. It's your fault, you didn't lock the door. If only women didn't wear short skirts they wouldn't get raped.

Sorry, I think the only solution is getting robbers, rapists, etc. off the street - something you can't do unless you "apprehend" them.

Woah. I think we got off track, Lenny.

I believe in apprehension 100%.

I'm just saying that if you have some minor burglaries and whatnot in your area, prevention goes a long ways.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

My personal belief is that there is a middle ground between prevention and apprehension:  observation.  I believe that this was what Zimmerman had in mind that night -- try to keep an eye on Martin until the cops arrived.  Once he lost sight of him, I think this included looking around for him.  Others obviously think he had different plans that night.  Only one person knows for sure.

Yea, that's fair.

Again, I don't think George was out for murder, but I think he made a lot of bad decisions and created a situation that didn't need to happen.

[Pakuni]

a distinction without a difference.

Or not.

http://voices.suntimes.com/early-and-often/zimmerman-juror-from-chicago-goes-public-george-zimmerman-got-away-with-murder/

[ChicosBailBonds]

If you think GZ was acting as a reasonable person at any point in the story, then I really don't want to live in your neighborhood.

I think you would love to live in my neighborhood.  Though you will be a minority, just as I am....which I love, but some people don't like that.  Safe place, good folks, honest and hard working, don't put up with BS from vandals, teens, etc.  Neighborhood watch here works great, plus a committed police department that aggressively polices. 


I did enjoy your comment that I'm reading into the story what I want to see......I'd ask if you are doing the same.    

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well, for me, they aren't separate events.

I don't know exactly how the physical altercation occurred. I've never claimed to.

But, I know that Zimmerman actively made several poor decisions that led up to altercation with TM. If he had decided differently at any of those points, the altercation never occurs.

- Wear a yellow jacket
- don't follow a "suspect"
- ID yourself to strangers
- Call out to the "suspect"
- Stay in your car after you call the cops
- Work in pairs
- etc.

Just imagine if TM was a 17 year old girl. Does that change your opinion? Should a 17yr old girl be frightened of an unidentified man following her around?

It wasn't a 17 year old girl.  I'd expect a 17 year old girl to act with more brains than TM and go inside the house, or call the cops, neither of which TM did.

I have to ask, why all of a sudden is GZ creepy?  Because TM said so?  Isn't that just as much profiling as those claiming GZ profiled TM? 

As mentioned earlier, I'm the block captain for my neighborhood, we never work in pairs and certainly don't have yellow jackets, or anything of the kind.  This isn't public safety at MU.  We're private citizens, who work, go to our kids school and sporting functions, etc.  I tend to walk my dog with me when I cruise the neighborhood....if you saw my dog she would try to lick an assailant to death, not a viscious bone in her body.  We act on the rule of whether you see something suspicious, go ahead and report it.  We're fortunate to have the police station about 1/2 mile away, so they are there in no time.  In other parts of the country, they don't have that benefit. We have very low crime in my neighborhood, other areas not so lucky.  So I think you're painting too broad a brush.  Not all places or situations are equal.  Some have higher crime, less police presence, bad response times, and few volunteers (neighborhood watch).

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

It wasn't a 17 year old girl.  I'd expect a 17 year old girl to act with more brains than TM and go inside the house, or call the cops, neither of which TM did.

I have to ask, why all of a sudden is GZ creepy?  Because TM said so?  Isn't that just as much profiling as those claiming GZ profiled TM? 

As mentioned earlier, I'm the block captain for my neighborhood, we never work in pairs and certainly don't have yellow jackets, or anything of the kind.  This isn't public safety at MU.  We're private citizens, who work, go to our kids school and sporting functions, etc.  I tend to walk my dog with me when I cruise the neighborhood....if you saw my dog she would try to lick an assailant to death, not a viscious bone in her body.  We act on the rule of whether you see something suspicious, go ahead and report it.  We're fortunate to have the police station about 1/2 mile away, so they are there in no time.  In other parts of the country, they don't have that benefit. We have very low crime in my neighborhood, other areas not so lucky.  So I think you're painting too broad a brush.  Not all places or situations are equal.  Some have higher crime, less police presence, bad response times, and few volunteers (neighborhood watch).

I never described GZ as creepy.

As far as my female analogy, I'm merely trying to illustrate that an adult male following a teenager in the dark (in the teen's own neighborhood) can be seen as threatening/scary. Can we agree on that?

As far as the jackets/flashlight/work in pairs stuff, well, I bring all of those up because they are viable options for crime prevention before you decide that you need a firearm for protection. If your neighborhood watch is effective without those items, then that's great. If crime picks up in your area, I would suggest jackets and flashlights before I'd recommend a pistol.

[mu_hilltopper]

I'd love to hear a sociologist talk about, not their opinion of the case, but rather, an opinion on the two sides of this case and why it appears impossible to coalesce around a truth of the matter.

What I mean by that is .. there are two camps.  Speaking from "my" camp, I believe there is a likely, logical conclusion to the event that occurred.  I've debated 4-5 people I have enormous intellectual respect for, people who I generally agree with, and I've had little luck convincing them of what I'm certain is the conclusion .. the lack of success -- or even "understanding" is enormously befuddling.  I keep asking myself "Really?" -- (which is likely what they are saying about my position.)

What I mean by that is .. like taxation, immigration, abortion, gay marriage, whatever, while I have an opinion, I can see why others could have the opposite.  It doesn't befuddle me at all.  The divisions in the Zimmerman case baffle me .. each of us likely imagines it may be something akin to conversations 500 years ago about whether the earth was round or not (with their side claiming 'round.')

I imagine which side you're on shows insight into a some sociological genome class we each belong to. 

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Just returned from several weeks abroad and the local paper waiting for me on the driveway. Front page article caught my eye as there seems to be a surge of burglaries in the neighborhood and authorities are asking for people to be on the lookout for "suspicious" persons and to notify them.....

[Lennys Tap]

I'd love to hear a sociologist talk about, not their opinion of the case, but rather, an opinion on the two sides of this case and why it appears impossible to coalesce around a truth of the matter.

What I mean by that is .. there are two camps.  Speaking from "my" camp, I believe there is a likely, logical conclusion to the event that occurred.  I've debated 4-5 people I have enormous intellectual respect for, people who I generally agree with, and I've had little luck convincing them of what I'm certain is the conclusion .. the lack of success -- or even "understanding" is enormously befuddling.  I keep asking myself "Really?" -- (which is likely what they are saying about my position.)

What I mean by that is .. like taxation, immigration, abortion, gay marriage, whatever, while I have an opinion, I can see why others could have the opposite.  It doesn't befuddle me at all.  The divisions in the Zimmerman case baffle me .. each of us likely imagines it may be something akin to conversations 500 years ago about whether the earth was round or not (with their side claiming 'round.')

I imagine which side you're on shows insight into a some sociological genome class we each belong to.  

Remember the disconnect over the OJ verdict? White America watched in stunned disbelief as black America celebrated the acquittal of a guy who committed a brutal, horrific double murder. Much of that disconnect came from diametrically opposing views of our legal/justice system. In a community where the police are mistrusted (sometimes for good reasons) it wasn't a stretch to think they planted evidence.

Fast forward to Zimmerman/Martin. The role one feels race played in the confrontation (from 0-10) informs one's opinion on whether you view it as tragedy or murder.

[mu_hilltopper]

Remember the disconnect over the OJ verdict? White America watched in stunned disbelief as black America celebrated the acquittal of a guy who committed a brutal, horrific double murder. Much of that disconnect came from diametrically opposing views of our legal/justice system. In a community where the police are mistrusted (sometimes for good reasons) it wasn't a stretch to think they planted evidence.

Fast forward to Zimmerman/Martin. The role one feels race played in the confrontation (from 0-10) informs one's opinion on whether you view it as tragedy or murder.

To the discredit of my brain cells, I don't recall much about the OJ verdict's controversy .. I can't recall debating it with anyone 18 years ago.   Admittedly, my universe is mostly caucasian, and perhaps 18 years has changed those caucasians to be more sensitive to race issues (??).

As for race being a/the factor in whether you view it as a murder or something else  .. I think that statement should be refined a bit.  I think most believe race is a factor, I do.  One side believes something along the lines of "yes, it's intolerable prejudice and race" versus the other side of "yes, it's justifiable profiling we all do."

[ChicosBailBonds]

I never described GZ as creepy.

As far as my female analogy, I'm merely trying to illustrate that an adult male following a teenager in the dark (in the teen's own neighborhood) can be seen as threatening/scary. Can we agree on that?

As far as the jackets/flashlight/work in pairs stuff, well, I bring all of those up because they are viable options for crime prevention before you decide that you need a firearm for protection. If your neighborhood watch is effective without those items, then that's great. If crime picks up in your area, I would suggest jackets and flashlights before I'd recommend a pistol.

But you have to also flip that and look at it from the other angle.  There were a bunch of crimes in the neighborhood caused by male youths, African Americans.  Not 17 year old girls.  I get where you are going with this, but in this situation GZ highly unlikely to follow a girl because she didn't fit the description of what was going on. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

But you have to also flip that and look at it from the other angle.  There were a bunch of crimes in the neighborhood caused by male youths, African Americans.  Not 17 year old girls.  I get where you are going with this, but in this situation GZ highly unlikely to follow a girl because she didn't fit the description of what was going on. 

My point is that he shouldn't be following ANYBODY. Doesn't matter what they look like.

He's not trained for it.
He's not dressed for it.
He didn't ID himself.
There was an altercation.
A kid is dead.

[forgetful]

I'd love to hear a sociologist talk about, not their opinion of the case, but rather, an opinion on the two sides of this case and why it appears impossible to coalesce around a truth of the matter.

What I mean by that is .. there are two camps.  Speaking from "my" camp, I believe there is a likely, logical conclusion to the event that occurred.  I've debated 4-5 people I have enormous intellectual respect for, people who I generally agree with, and I've had little luck convincing them of what I'm certain is the conclusion .. the lack of success -- or even "understanding" is enormously befuddling.  I keep asking myself "Really?" -- (which is likely what they are saying about my position.)

What I mean by that is .. like taxation, immigration, abortion, gay marriage, whatever, while I have an opinion, I can see why others could have the opposite.  It doesn't befuddle me at all.  The divisions in the Zimmerman case baffle me .. each of us likely imagines it may be something akin to conversations 500 years ago about whether the earth was round or not (with their side claiming 'round.')

I imagine which side you're on shows insight into a some sociological genome class we each belong to. 

I wholeheartedly agree, from a sociology/psychology standpoint this case is fascinating.  I'm sure people will be studying it for years.

[ChicosBailBonds]

My point is that he shouldn't be following ANYBODY. Doesn't matter what they look like.

He's not trained for it.
He's not dressed for it.
He didn't ID himself.
There was an altercation.
A kid is dead.

I understand it completely.  Just to play what if scenario since that is thrown around here.  Say GZ followed a different guy he found to be suspicious and actually watched him break into a home and attempt to kill someone.  He had a choice to make, seconds to make it, to go in and do something about it or wait for the cops to arrive.  He goes in, kills the suspect, saves a life.  Good thing or bad thing?

[Lennys Tap]

I understand it completely.  Just to play what if scenario since that is thrown around here.  Say GZ followed a different guy he found to be suspicious and actually watched him break into a home and attempt to kill someone.  He had a choice to make, seconds to make it, to go in and do something about it or wait for the cops to arrive.  He goes in, kills the suspect, saves a life.  Good thing or bad thing?

GZ saves an innocent life = good thing.
GZ takes an innocent life = bad thing.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I understand it completely.  Just to play what if scenario since that is thrown around here.  Say GZ followed a different guy he found to be suspicious and actually watched him break into a home and attempt to kill someone.  He had a choice to make, seconds to make it, to go in and do something about it or wait for the cops to arrive.  He goes in, kills the suspect, saves a life.  Good thing or bad thing?

Well, I'll defer to law enforcement professionals, who tell me that it's never a good idea to follow or engage a "suspect". Too many things can go wrong, especially with a firearm involved.

Observe. Report. Don't follow. Don't engage.

I don't expect the neighborhood watch to get into a gunfight and save me from a break-in and murder. That's just not realistic to me.