Florida, Florida, Florida

[ChicosBailBonds]

No, Chico's, no.
A person who smoked pot several days ago is not walking around today feeling paranoid. It doesn't work that way. Stop making stuff up.

Wasn't making anything up.  Here you go


Medical examiner Shiping Bao told jurors that he had changed his opinion with regard to whether Martin's marijuana level could have affected his physical or mental state on the night of the shooting. Bao initially concluded that the amount of THC (tetrahydrocannabinol) in Martin's blood would not have had any effect on the 17-year-old.

However, during his testimony last week, Bao referenced Martin's THC level, noting that "Marijuana could have no effect or some effect."

In Zimmerman's call to a non-emergency police line, he told a dispatcher that a person he was observing (who turned out to be Martin) appeared to be "on drugs."

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Lots of should haves.  Agree.  Not sure anyone said GZ didn't make a mistake(s).  Of course, let's treat TM the same way.


"Hey man, why are you following me?

"Instead of....you got a problem with me.....well you do now?"   Of course, that doesn't count because GZ said it and it cannot be corroborated so immediately the default is that he is a liar.  

If he was out to apprehend, why wouldn't he just take his gun out right from the start and keep him at bay until the cops came?

Better yet, if he was feet from his house why didn't he go into it rather than attack GZ?

You are absolutely correct that there are mistakes on both parties. I wish Martin would have just walked home. I wish Martin would have called the cops so they could come out and straighten the whole thing out. I wish a lot of things happened differently.

But, I hold the neighborhood watch captain with the pistol more responsible than the unarmed kid walking home from the store.

As far as apprehension vs prevention, I guess we are getting into semantics. I can't put myself in Zimmerman's shoes, but based off of the police call(s), he want people CAUGHT. Now, I understand his frustration, but neighborhood watch isn't about "catching" people. It's about PREVENTION of crime.

For me, a guy walking around in plain clothes, in the dark, carrying a gun, isn't doing much to prevent crime. Wear a yellow jacket. Carry a huge flashlight, identify yourself, introduce yourself to people you don't recognize, etc. etc. Zimmerman wanted to make sure this kid was caught. He was trying to give the police his exact location and description. Again, Zimmerman isn't trained for this. Bad stuff can happen. Bad stuff did happen.

There is a reason why MU has "yellow jackets" out walking around on campus instead of students in plain clothes carrying guns.

Crime prevention is about visibility, observation and presence. I don't think an armed citizen in plain clothes following a "suspect" is crime prevention... it's a seen from a Charles Bronson movie.  

[forgetful]

Chicos, lets assume that TM did have drugs in his system that would make him paranoid.

Fact of the matter is, some dude got out of his car in the rain and stalked him through a neighborhood for no particular reason.  Being afraid/concerned under this scenario is not paranoid, it is the prudent rational thing to think.

Also, Trayvon did ask Zimmerman why he was following him, right before the altercation occurred and shortly before Trayvon "hit the ground" as reported by his girlfriend.

Now just like everything else, none of this can be confirmed, but witnesses validate it (his girlfriend).

Oh wait that can't be right, because TM jumped out of non-existent bushes and surprised GZ.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The demographics white hispanic and non-hispanic white have been being used long before GZ.  It is the predominant way of distinguishing between individuals of hispanic origin and those that are not.  The US census even used this breakdown.  Google non-hispanic white and read up.

I don't disagree with that, but it has not been used in reporting.  That was the point. In fact one outlet did a search a about 6 months or so ago showing that the first time some of these news services had EVER used the term was in this case.  Not one time prior had they ever done so and it coincidentally came after the same services claimed he was white, only to find out they were wrong.

A separate analysis done on the NY Times around their use of the term can be found here.  It was the first time in the NY Times HISTORY they used the term White Hispanic about a specific individual.  Amazing.  

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/why-did-new-york-times-call-george-zimmerman-white-hispanic/2012/03/28/gIQAW6fngS_blog.html


Is the media going to now call our President a white African American?  

Look, the media got burned bad in this one...very badly.  The editing of the tapes was criminal and they will pay dearly as a result.  The stirring up of the other crap most Americans can see through.  It was disgusting.  

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos, lets assume that TM did have drugs in his system that would make him paranoid.

Fact of the matter is, some dude got out of his car in the rain and stalked him through a neighborhood for no particular reason.  Being afraid/concerned under this scenario is not paranoid, it is the prudent rational thing to think.

If he was so afraid of this "stalker", why did he attack him and not just go into his house a few feet away?  Why didn't he seek the safety of his house....isn't that rational? 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

A chain of events that stops if he isn't attacked by TM.  It's not as if it was a chain of events that was a runaway train.  He followed him, nothing illegal about it.  He called the cops, ahead of time.  Had a gun, nothing illegal about it.  He was attacked (this is what the evidence shows, what the jury believes....Pakuni can say that's not the case, that's what REASONABLE people believe happened and stated in the jury deliberations).  He fired in self defense.


Don't attack a guy feet from your home, don't break his nose, don't pummel his head into the concrete, and you are still alive.  Bad decision.

The chain of events doesn't even start if Zimmerman applies a tiny bit of common sense and self control. He's NOT TRAINED to identify and follow a "suspect". The second he took 1 step towards Martin, he was wrong. When he didn't immediately identify himself as neighborhood watch, he was wrong.

As far as "legal" or not, I know how/why Zimmerman was found not guilty. My problem is that I think the laws are poorly written/interpreted that it allows for untrained individuals to arm themselves and follow private citizens because somebody MIGHT commit a crime.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The chain of events doesn't even start if Zimmerman applies a tiny bit of common sense and self control. He's NOT TRAINED to identify and follow a "suspect". The second he took 1 step towards Martin, he was wrong. When he didn't immediately identify himself as neighborhood watch, he was wrong.

As far as "legal" or not, I know how/why Zimmerman was found not guilty. My problem is that I think the laws are poorly written/interpreted that it allows for untrained individuals to arm themselves and follow private citizens because somebody MIGHT commit a crime.

Absolutely doesn't matter.  The jurors said the same thing.  Two separate events.  Should GZ have followed him, no.  Him following him didn't lead to TM's death.  TM could have gone into his house.  Could have not attacked GZ.  Could have run away.  Etc, etc, etc.  It was the act of attacking GZ that cost him his life.  Two separate incidents.

[forgetful]

If he was so afraid of this "stalker", why did he attack him and not just go into his house a few feet away?  Why didn't he seek the safety of his house....isn't that rational? 

For the 50th time.  We don't know that he attacked GZ first, there is no evidence to support that assertion as contradicting reports exist.  The contradictory reports are sufficient for reasonable doubt, but not proof in either direction.

Also, the fact of the matter is we will never know why he didn't just go into his house, as he was gunned down by GZ.  For all we know GZ was reaching for his gun (note, I am not saying this occurred, just illustrating that we have no idea what happened).

[StillAWarrior]

You are absolutely correct that there are mistakes on both parties. I wish Martin would have just walked home. I wish Martin would have called the cops so they could come out and straighten the whole thing out. I wish a lot of things happened differently.

But, I hold the neighborhood watch captain with the pistol more responsible than the unarmed kid walking home from the store.

As far as apprehension vs prevention, I guess we are getting into semantics. I can't put myself in Zimmerman's shoes, but based off of the police call(s), he want people CAUGHT. Now, I understand his frustration, but neighborhood watch isn't about "catching" people. It's about PREVENTION of crime.

For me, a guy walking around in plain clothes, in the dark, carrying a gun, isn't doing much to prevent crime. Wear a yellow jacket. Carry a huge flashlight, identify yourself, introduce yourself to people you don't recognize, etc. etc. Zimmerman wanted to make sure this kid was caught. He was trying to give the police his exact location and description. Again, Zimmerman isn't trained for this. Bad stuff can happen. Bad stuff did happen.

There is a reason why MU has "yellow jackets" out walking around on campus instead of students in plain clothes carrying guns.

Crime prevention is about visibility, observation and presence. I don't think an armed citizen in plain clothes following a "suspect" is crime prevention... it's a seen from a Charles Bronson movie.  

I agree with most of what you'v said here, but your last line -- and you've used it a couple of times now -- is one of the things that keeps getting under people's skin.  You keep saying you don't like the way this went down..mistakes...carelessness...prevention...etc.  And then you compare it to a well-known series of movies where the protagonist was a vigilante who was specifically out there hunting and killing people.  That rubs a lot of people the wrong way.  I think Zimmerman made some stupid mistakes that tragically led to the death of Martin.  But, I don't think he set out to kill Martin and I think he acted in self defense.  I think the prosecution's biggest mistake in the case was to try to make a case that Zimmerman wanted to kill Martin.  I think if they'd have just focused their attention on manslaughter, they might have been able to get that conviction.

[ATWizJr]

Actually, all the verdict establishes is that the jury didn't feel that the state proved murder or manslaughter beyond a reasonable doubt.

a distinction without a difference.

[ChicosBailBonds]

For the 50th time.  We don't know that he attacked GZ first, there is no evidence to support that assertion as contradicting reports exist.  The contradictory reports are sufficient for reasonable doubt, but not proof in either direction.

Also, the fact of the matter is we will never know why he didn't just go into his house, as he was gunned down by GZ.  For all we know GZ was reaching for his gun (note, I am not saying this occurred, just illustrating that we have no idea what happened).

Reasonable person standard.  Reasonable people, the jurors of Florida, believe the is what happened.  We have a defendant when told by police AFTER his statement that the entire thing was captured on video said, "THANK GOD!".  This was going to prove his story.

This is what I find funny. Some of you basically calling this guy a liar, when it was he who called the cops in the first place.  He is the one that was hoping like hell there was a video to back up his story. 

Then I read wonderful hypothesis that seem to indicate that he had his gun out from the very beginning, or an intent to kill him from the start.  If so, can someone explain to me why he let his face get bashed in and his skull smashed in before finally pulling the trigger?  Again, reasonable person standard.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I agree with most of what you'v said here, but your last line -- and you've used it a couple of times now -- is one of the things that keeps getting under people's skin.  You keep saying you don't like the way this went down..mistakes...carelessness...prevention...etc.  And then you compare it to a well-known series of movies where the protagonist was a vigilante who was specifically out there hunting and killing people.  That rubs a lot of people the wrong way.  I think Zimmerman made some stupid mistakes that tragically led to the death of Martin.  But, I don't think he set out to kill Martin and I think he acted in self defense.  I think the prosecution's biggest mistake in the case was to try to make a case that Zimmerman wanted to kill Martin.  I think if they'd have just focused their attention on manslaughter, they might have been able to get that conviction.

That's fair. I use the Bronson thing as an extreme comparison, and your right, the intent is different.

I don't think GZ set out to kill anybody. think he's a guy who was frustrated about the crime in his neighborhood. Instead of just calling the cops, he followed a kid because he didn't want the kid to "get away". He could have called out to TM, he could have ID'd himself to TM. But, he didn't.

That's an important distinction for me. I don't think Zimmerman did a good enough job of preventing an altercation. He engaged in an activity that started one.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Absolutely doesn't matter.  The jurors said the same thing.  Two separate events.  Should GZ have followed him, no.  Him following him didn't lead to TM's death.  TM could have gone into his house.  Could have not attacked GZ.  Could have run away.  Etc, etc, etc.  It was the act of attacking GZ that cost him his life.  Two separate incidents.

Well, for me, they aren't separate events.

I don't know exactly how the physical altercation occurred. I've never claimed to.

But, I know that Zimmerman actively made several poor decisions that led up to altercation with TM. If he had decided differently at any of those points, the altercation never occurs.

- Wear a yellow jacket
- don't follow a "suspect"
- ID yourself to strangers
- Call out to the "suspect"
- Stay in your car after you call the cops
- Work in pairs
- etc.

Just imagine if TM was a 17 year old girl. Does that change your opinion? Should a 17yr old girl be frightened of an unidentified man following her around?

[WellsstreetWanderer]

GZ is a Neighborhood Watch member. He saw someone suspicious walking slowly in the rain, not a normal pace for a person wanting to not get wet. A watch person is on the lookout for his neighborhood and he had a permit for his gun. If TM had not confronted him it would not have gone down the way it did. Both made unfortunate decisions.
Shame on the media for lying to us by omission of key facts, exaggerating others and generally making this story something it was not.

[MerrittsMustache]

That's fair. I use the Bronson thing as an extreme comparison, and your right, the intent is different.

I don't think GZ set out to kill anybody. think he's a guy who was frustrated about the crime in his neighborhood. Instead of just calling the cops, he followed a kid because he didn't want the kid to "get away". He could have called out to TM, he could have ID'd himself to TM. But, he didn't.

That's an important distinction for me. I don't think Zimmerman did a good enough job of preventing an altercation. He engaged in an activity that started one.

Zimmerman was out running errands when he noticed Martin wandering through the neighborhood, between houses, not on the sidewalk. He wasn't out "patrolling" the neighborhood that night. He just happened to see him from his car.

He also noticed, as he stated to the police dispatcher, that Martin was reaching in his waistband and later that he had something in his hands. For all Zimmerman knew, it was a weapon. Personally, if I thought there was even a slight chance that a suspicious-looking person was holding a gun, I would not approach him and announce to him that I was neighborhood watch. Hell, I wouldn't approach him at all. Would anyone on here?

I'm not trying to excuse the mistakes made by either party - just pointing out some facts.

In all honesty, I do think that if GZ was wearing a bright orange "Neighborhood Watch" vest, Martin would not have feared him and would have just gone home.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Zimmerman was out running errands when he noticed Martin wandering through the neighborhood, between houses, not on the sidewalk. He wasn't out "patrolling" the neighborhood that night. He just happened to see him from his car.

He also noticed, as he stated to the police dispatcher, that Martin was reaching in his waistband and later that he had something in his hands. For all Zimmerman knew, it was a weapon. Personally, if I thought there was even a slight chance that a suspicious-looking person was holding a gun, I would not approach him and announce to him that I was neighborhood watch. Hell, I wouldn't approach him at all. Would anyone on here?

I'm not trying to excuse the mistakes made by either party - just pointing out some facts.

In all honesty, I do think that if GZ was wearing a bright orange "Neighborhood Watch" vest, Martin would not have feared him and would have just gone home.

The knife cuts both ways though, right?

Imagine what TM thought when Zimmerman started following him between houses? Did Zimmerman reach for his waistband? Did TM think he had a gun? What was going through TM's mind?

If Zimmerman was afraid, imagine how TM felt.

AND, if Zimmerman thought the kid was too dangerous to approach, he shouldn't have gotten out of his truck.

[MerrittsMustache]

The knife cuts both ways though, right?

Imagine what TM thought when Zimmerman started following him between houses? Did Zimmerman reach for his waistband? Did TM think he had a gun? What was going through TM's mind?

If Zimmerman was afraid, imagine how TM felt.

AND, if Zimmerman thought the kid was too dangerous to approach, he shouldn't have gotten out of his truck.

I agree.

Martin saw a "creepy-ass cracker" following him for reasons unknown and it scared him. Zimmerman saw a suspicious-looking person wandering through yards and was concerned. It's easy to sit back and say that GZ should have politely ID'd himself or that Martin should have just run home. In the moment, however, neither of them knew what the other was up to and none of us know what we would have done in a similar situation. Again, I agree with your notion that some sort of easily-visible neighborhood watch jacket/vest/tag would have been beneficial and possibly even life-saving (although it may not have been an option since GZ was just out running errands).

Zimmerman didn't approach Martin when he got out of his truck. He went to see where he went so that he could tell police where he was when they arrived.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Zimmerman didn't approach Martin when he got out of his truck. He went to see where he went so that he could tell police where he was when they arrived.

And for me, that's where the whole thing goes wrong.

I don't think Zimmerman had bad intentions, but he didn't have the proper self control to evaluate the situation and the potential risks/danger. He's not trained for these scenarios, so I wish he would have just stayed out of it.

The chain of events didn't begin with a physical altercation, it began when Zimmerman tried to track a "potentially dangerous suspect who might have a gun".

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I agree.
Again, I agree with your notion that some sort of easily-visible neighborhood watch jacket/vest/tag would have been beneficial and possibly even life-saving (although it may not have been an option since GZ was just out running errands).

George remembered to bring his gun when he ran errands. Probably not too much to ask for him to throw in a flashlight and vest into his truck.

[Pakuni]

I agree.

Martin saw a "creepy-ass cracker" following him for reasons unknown and it scared him. Zimmerman saw a suspicious-looking person wandering through yards and was concerned. It's easy to sit back and say that GZ should have politely ID'd himself or that Martin should have just run home. In the moment, however, neither of them knew what the other was up to and none of us know what we would have done in a similar situation. Again, I agree with your notion that some sort of easily-visible neighborhood watch jacket/vest/tag would have been beneficial and possibly even life-saving (although it may not have been an option since GZ was just out running errands).

Zimmerman didn't approach Martin when he got out of his truck. He went to see where he went so that he could tell police where he was when they arrived.

I generally agree, but ....
None of us knows what happened between the time Zimmerman ended his 911 call and the confrontation between he and Martin.
Did Zimmerman continue to pursue Martin?
Did Martin, after running away, come back and confront Zimmerman?
Did they happen upon one another by chance?
We don't know. We have Zimmerman's account, but obviously he has pretty strong incentive to portray himself in the best possible light. And, IMO, the actions of both up to that point make me doubtful of his version because it would require a complete role reversal (i.e. scared teen suddenly becomes emboldened to hunt down GZ and assault him). But maybe that is what happened.

[StillAWarrior]

I generally agree, but ....
None of us knows what happened between the time Zimmerman ended his 911 call and the confrontation between he and Martin.
Did Zimmerman continue to pursue Martin?
Did Martin, after running away, come back and confront Zimmerman?
Did they happen upon one another by chance?
We don't know. We have Zimmerman's account, but obviously he has pretty strong incentive to portray himself in the best possible light. And, IMO, the actions of both up to that point make me doubtful of his version because it would require a complete role reversal (i.e. scared teen suddenly becomes emboldened to hunt down GZ and assault him). But maybe that is what happened.

Honest question:  is it clear that he was a scared teen?  I'm assuming that would come from the phone conversation from this friend, but I don't know.  I can understand the whole, "wouldn't you be scared if some strange man was following/stalking/tracking/hunting/looking at/etc. you" theory, but I'm genuinely curious of there was actually evidence that he was scared (aside from the fact that he ran).

[Pakuni]

Honest question:  is it clear that he was a scared teen?  I'm assuming that would come from the phone conversation from this friend, but I don't know.  I can understand the whole, "wouldn't you be scared if some strange man was following/stalking/tracking/hunting/looking at/etc. you" theory, but I'm genuinely curious of there was actually evidence that he was scared (aside from the fact that he ran).

Two pieces of evidence he was scared:
1. He ran
2. The testimony from the friend with whom he was speaking while being followed.

Honest follow up ... other than the aforementioned, what further evidence might you imagine to indicate he was scared, or at least apprehensive, about being followed by a stranger?

[MerrittsMustache]

And for me, that's where the whole thing goes wrong.

I don't think Zimmerman had bad intentions, but he didn't have the proper self control to evaluate the situation and the potential risks/danger. He's not trained for these scenarios, so I wish he would have just stayed out of it.

The chain of events didn't begin with a physical altercation, it began when Zimmerman tried to track a "potentially dangerous suspect who might have a gun".

I can't really argue with that. I think GZ got caught up in the moment and truly believed that he was going to play an integral role in arresting the person who had been breaking into homes in his neighborhood. I don't think he necessarily went about things in the right fashion, but he wasn't completely wrong either, if that makes sense.  

George remembered to bring his gun when he ran errands. Probably not too much to ask for him to throw in a flashlight and vest into his truck.

I'd be willing to bet that there's a significantly higher number of people who keep guns in their cars than you and I realize. I happen to know 2 of those people and I never would have guessed it had they not told me.

[forgetful]

Reasonable person standard.  Reasonable people, the jurors of Florida, believe the is what happened.  We have a defendant when told by police AFTER his statement that the entire thing was captured on video said, "THANK GOD!".  This was going to prove his story.

This is what I find funny. Some of you basically calling this guy a liar, when it was he who called the cops in the first place.  He is the one that was hoping like hell there was a video to back up his story. 

Then I read wonderful hypothesis that seem to indicate that he had his gun out from the very beginning, or an intent to kill him from the start.  If so, can someone explain to me why he let his face get bashed in and his skull smashed in before finally pulling the trigger?  Again, reasonable person standard.

Reasonable people concluded that there was not definitive evidence to convict for murder or manslaughter, not that they believed GZs version of the events.

Fact of the matter is, GZ changed his story several times.  His final story does not line up with concrete evidence (see his video reenactment), so either he is a liar or he doesn't really remember how the whole thing went down and his mind is filling in gaps.  I tend to believe the latter.  PTSD will help you fill in the gaps and if you are traumatized from a particular action, lets say killing someone, you mind will fill in gaps with information that makes you feel better about your action.  

The comment that his hand was on his gun the entire time, was my poke at you guys making stuff up.  I thought it was clear (and later flat out said it)...the internet is not a great venue for subtle tricks of the English language.

GZ didn't let his face get bashed in and his skull smashed.  Medical experts confirmed his injuries were minor.  Your reading into the story what you want to see.  

Phone conversation confirms GZ caught up to TM.  TM asked "Why are you following me".  Phone conversation indicates TM hit the ground (this would imply that GZ tried to detain/restrain TM).  What happens next is anyones guess.

Using a reasonable person standard, I would assume that GZ at this point is already reaching for his gun.  As he believes he is detaining a criminal.  Fight ensues, GZ takes some licks, kills TM.

If you think GZ was acting as a reasonable person at any point in the story, then I really don't want to live in your neighborhood.

[forgetful]

I can't really argue with that. I think GZ got caught up in the moment and truly believed that he was going to play an integral role in arresting the person who had been breaking into homes in his neighborhood. I don't think he necessarily went about things in the right fashion, but he wasn't completely wrong either, if that makes sense.  

I'd be willing to bet that there's a significantly higher number of people who keep guns in their cars than you and I realize. I happen to know 2 of those people and I never would have guessed it had they not told me.

Absolutely, people keep guns in their cars.  But how many of them conceal carry in a rear inside the waistband holster when they are out running errands.  Even then, how many of them remember to arm themselves when they get out of their car (to determine what street they are on) to report to the police.

I'll note that it is kind of odd, that the reason GZ got out of his car was to be able to report to police his location.  Turns out he was on his own street on the dog walk that he uses everyday.  Seems like the reason he got out of his car was not to determine his location.