[Paint Touches] Analyzing Marquette’s transfers under Buzz Williams

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

What about a kid who plays in four open gyms, never participates in an official practice, and never makes it to the first day of classes?

He came to MU, stayed in the dorms, practiced with the team, presumably ate the food (on MU's dime) and left the program.

We can slice this up 1 thousand different ways.

If not calling him a "transfer" helps people sleep better at night, then I won't do it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

What about a kid who plays in four open gyms, never participates in an official practice, and never makes it to the first day of classes?

I would call that a horrific recruiting mistake.      Usually it takes more than 4 practices to know someone doesn't belong.

[Jay Bee]

MU offered scholarships and those kids accepted. If they change schools, that's a transfer.

I don't say that to be a dick, but those are the facts. It's not arbitrary.

No, those aren't the facts. The specifics are different in each case, but they are absolutely not all transfers.

In addition, the facts aren't that "MU offered scholarships and those kids accepted" for all of these guys. Absolutely not fact.

Take Newbill for example. He was offered a scholarship subject to certain requirements, including applying and being accepted by the University. That never happened. If X happens, we will grant you a scholarship. X never happened, a scholarship was never granted.

[Lennys Tap]

Actually, Donovan accepted the job with the Orlando Magic and then went back to Florida. THOSE are the facts.

I stand corrected 'Stache. Point remains I don't think you'll see his name in the Magic's media guide as an ex coach, even though he was "offered" and "accepted".

[GGGG]

What about a kid who plays in four open gyms, never participates in an official practice, and never makes it to the first day of classes?

Roseboro took classes at MU.

[keefe]

I would call that a horrific recruiting mistake. 

Menard, Christian, or Manchild?

[GGGG]

NM

[MerrittsMustache]

I stand corrected 'Stache. Point remains I don't think you'll see his name in the Magic's media guide as an ex coach, even though he was "offered" and "accepted".

Page 159 of the 2012-13 Orlando Magic Media Guide

"May 31, 2007        Name Billy Donovan head coach."

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/media/2.0/teamsites/magic/2012-13OrlandoMagicMediaGuide.pdf

[Dr. Blackheart]

I only feel bad about three of these...fact is 11 left on their own hand including McMorrow who couldn't play again at MU for technical reasons due to his heart condition which was publicized at the time.

[MerrittsMustache]

I only feel bad about three of these...fact is 11 left on their own hand including McMorrow who couldn't play again at MU for technical reasons due to his heart condition which was publicized at the time.

Having 1/3 of Buzz's recruits transfer is not a positive, but it's not like the departing players had clashes with Buzz or the staff or the coaching style.

Jamal Ferguson was blocked by better players and wanted more PT. Same with Jamail Jones. Both could have been limited-minute role players.

T.J. Taylor was homesick and his lead recruiter left MU to become a head coach. He followed him.

Reggie Smith didn't understand his actually skill-level and has since transferred again.

Erik Williams and Patrick Hazel all had "outside forces" leading to their transfers.

Jeronne Maymon was transferred by his father.

D.J. Newbill never completed his application (allegedly) and he has since transferred again in order to be closer to home.

McMorrow wasn't medically cleared by MU's medical staff.

Roseboro and Mbao were projects who were simply in over their heads at MU. Roseboro transferred from St. Bonaventure as well and Mbao has been a non-factor at Marshall.

[Golden Avalanche]

He came to MU, stayed in the dorms, practiced with the team, presumably ate the food (on MU's dime) and left the program.

We can slice this up 1 thousand different ways.

If not calling him a "transfer" helps people sleep better at night, then I won't do it.

Ah, whatever. Glory be to god I yam what I yam and not what ye be for that be too deep a hole for me to see.

[PaintTouches]

I asked this on Twitter and never got to the bottom of it. Does anyone know why Taylor had to sit out a year while Roseboro played immediately?

[4everwarriors]

Actually, Donovan accepted the job with the Orlando Magic and then went back to Florida. THOSE are the facts.

Dude's beginnin' to sound like Dana Altman, hey?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

No, those aren't the facts. The specifics are different in each case, but they are absolutely not all transfers.

In addition, the facts aren't that "MU offered scholarships and those kids accepted" for all of these guys. Absolutely not fact.

Take Newbill for example. He was offered a scholarship subject to certain requirements, including applying and being accepted by the University. That never happened. If X happens, we will grant you a scholarship. X never happened, a scholarship was never granted.

You know what? You're right.

I was wrong.

The term "transfer" has a specific definition, and guys who aren't enrolled shouldn't receive that designation.

I guess I was coming from an angle that those offers/kids leaving shouldn't be considered "nothing". Maybe we just need a category of "signed but never played".

[GGGG]

I asked this on Twitter and never got to the bottom of it. Does anyone know why Taylor had to sit out a year while Roseboro played immediately?

Or when Shane Larkin left DePaul during the summer and went to Miami.

Maybe the NCAA changed the rule last year...

[Jay Bee]

Or when Shane Larkin left DePaul during the summer and went to Miami.

Maybe the NCAA changed the rule last year...

The NCAA doesn't explain why they rule how they do on exceptions..... Larkin, the rumor is, made a plea about his transfer being medically related. What exactly he and Barry said - we don't know. What additional information might have requested.. their thought process on granting an exception, etc... we don't know.

Similarly, don't know why Taylor wasn't able to play. Maybe there were... other things going on.

[MerrittsMustache]

The NCAA doesn't explain why they rule how they do on exceptions..... Larkin, the rumor is, made a plea about his transfer being medically related. What exactly he and Barry said - we don't know. What additional information might have requested.. their thought process on granting an exception, etc... we don't know.

Similarly, don't know why Taylor wasn't able to play. Maybe there were... other things going on.

IIRC, Larkin missed the first few games of his freshman season before he was ruled to be eligible.

[Lennys Tap]

Page 159 of the 2012-13 Orlando Magic Media Guide

"May 31, 2007        Name Billy Donovan head coach."

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/media/2.0/teamsites/magic/2012-13OrlandoMagicMediaGuide.pdf

He is listed as a "Transaction" but when they list the coaches and their records at Orlando his tenure as head coach (May 31, 2007-June 6, 2007 Wins 0 Losses 0) is not included.

[dgies9156]

What I would be curious about is the general transfer rate for the university at large. The reality is that young folks come to a college and find it, on reflection, not right for them. Any number of reasons govern the need for a change. I had one acquaintance in the general population who came on campus for three days and went home. Not entirely sure why but did and gave up a free ride.

Key point is not if there are transfers. There will be. Kids get "recruited over," they may not like Buzz or his style of coaching, they don't like Milwaukee, the dorms aren't as nice at north Carolina or they simply don't like the inevitable tundraland Wisconsin becomes from Thanksgiving to Easter.

I don't see the big deal unless someone like Davante transfers@!

[T-Bone]

What I would be curious about is the general transfer rate for the university at large. The reality is that young folks come to a college and find it, on reflection, not right for them. Any number of reasons govern the need for a change. I had one acquaintance in the general population who came on campus for three days and went home. Not entirely sure why but did and gave up a free ride.

Key point is not if there are transfers. There will be. Kids get "recruited over," they may not like Buzz or his style of coaching, they don't like Milwaukee, the dorms aren't as nice at north Carolina or they simply don't like the inevitable tundraland Wisconsin becomes from Thanksgiving to Easter.

I don't see the big deal unless someone like Davante transfers@!

I don't see it as a big deal either. 
In 2010, the student transfer rate was about 33% - http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/27/transfer/
This 2012 study has the same results - http://chronicle.com/article/A-Third-of-Students-Transfer/130954/

[warriorchick]

I don't see it as a big deal either. 
In 2010, the student transfer rate was about 33% - http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/27/transfer/
This 2012 study has the same results - http://chronicle.com/article/A-Third-of-Students-Transfer/130954/

As was mentioned in another thread, those stats are students who start at one school, and for any reason at all, leave and take classes at another.  I would venture that the majority are for reasons other than simple "bad fit", including going from a 2-year to 4-year school to finish a Bachelor's degree, and no longer being able to afford the first school and switching to a less expensive one.

[MerrittsMustache]

He is listed as a "Transaction" but when they list the coaches and their records at Orlando his tenure as head coach (May 31, 2007-June 6, 2007 Wins 0 Losses 0) is not included.

You said: "I don't think you'll see his name in the Magic's media guide as an ex coach."

Turns out, he's listed in the media as an ex coach.

May 31, 2007      Name Billy Donovan head coach.
June 6, 2007       Release Billy Donovan from his contract.


Point plankn!

[keefe]

As was mentioned in another thread, those stats are students who start at one school, and for any reason at all, leave and take classes at another.  I would venture that the majority are for reasons other than simple "bad fit", including going from a 2-year to 4-year school to finish a Bachelor's degree, and no longer being able to afford the first school and switching to a less expensive one.

Well, I read in my Phoenix University Alumni Magazine that PU is the transfer destination of choice for today's college student who demands a more flexible, accommodating educational circumstance.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Menard, Christian, or Manchild?

I'd add to that list.  Goes to show, recruiting and evaluations is hard.  Sometimes you find out pretty early, sometimes in the middle of the season, sometimes at the end of the season, but recruiting is hard.  Glad everyone finally agrees that is the case....sure took a year or 5 to recognize that for some.

[Dawson Rental]

Newbill never got to campus.  He wasn't a transfer.  Both Roseboro and TJT got to campus and enrolled.  They were transfers. 

Aaron Durley was another player who has the same set of facts as Newbill.  I would agree that he shouldn't be considered a transfer, but the article classifies him as one.