Heat/Spurs Game 6

[ChicosBailBonds]

During any other game, they call a foul on Green 9 times out of 10.  Whether one thinks its a foul or not doesn't matter, lebron gets the benefit of the doubt 90% of the time.

That's because it was a foul and should be called on Green 9 times out of 10 if not every time.  It's not a matter of the benefit of the doubt, he is blocking James advancement to the rim...it is a blocking foul whether that is LeBron James with the ball or George Gershwin.

[GGGG]

Lebron is great. Jordan was great. Lebron can do a lot of things on the court Jordan could never do. Jordan did a lot of things that Lebron can't do. Ten years from now we may be able to have a legitimate debate about who was better. Until then, I'm going to enjoy watching Lebron do things that I have never seen before.

Completely 100% agree.  Lebron James is a special player.  Enjoy him.

[GGGG]

Now, I happen to think Jordan is the best ever, but a guy like Robertson, with todays training may be the best ever.  Dude averaged a triple double...that will never be done again.  Lebron averages a triple double I'll gladly crown him king.

Oscar Robertson was a great player.  But he averaged a triple double in 1961-62.  Nine teams in the league...the worst of which averaged 110.9 ppg.  (Which is more than the top NBA scoring team in the NBA averaged this year - Denver at 106)  It was simply a different league back then and hard to compare to today.

Furthermore, all of Oscar's opponents would have the same access to training too right?

[GGGG]

I honestly think the big difference is James as been crowned king since he was very young.  He never had to fight for anything, all the 'real' greats did.  James has to a large extent made due on sheer god given talent (he has a lot of it).

I have read this statement a few times now, and I still have no idea what you mean.  "He never had to fight for anything."  WTF does that even mean???

[MerrittsMustache]

I have read this statement a few times now, and I still have no idea what you mean.  "He never had to fight for anything."  WTF does that even mean???

Because of LeBron's combination of size, speed, strength and athleticism, a lot people view him similarly to the kid in junior high who hit puberty first and is "good" because he's bigger than everyone else. There is a whole lot more to becoming an all-time great basketball than being big and having a lot of God-given abilities. Just ask Derrick Coleman, Eddy Curry or Kwame Brown.

[GGGG]

Because of LeBron's combination of size, speed, strength and athleticism, a lot people view him similarly to the kid in junior high who hit puberty first and is "good" because he's bigger than everyone else. There is a whole lot more to becoming an all-time great basketball than being big and having a lot of God-given abilities. Just ask Derrick Coleman, Eddy Curry or Kwame Brown.

Well then that's a really dumb statement.  I'm not sure what would lead people to believe that he doesn't work hard or put the time in.

BTW, Derrick Coleman doesn't belong on that list.  He was kind of a dick, but he was a good basketball player.  Averaged a double-double five of his first seven seasons in the NBA and stuck around for 16 years.

[Golden Avalanche]

Well then that's a really dumb statement.  I'm not sure what would lead people to believe that he doesn't work hard or put the time in.

BTW, Derrick Coleman doesn't belong on that list.  He was kind of a dick, but he was a good basketball player.  Averaged a double-double five of his first seven seasons in the NBA and stuck around for 16 years.

When people are resorting to the "LeBron is really only that good because he's bigger than everybody else" criticism, all hope is lost.

Dude's a phenomenon. Guy has rolled two triple-doubles this Finals and some have the temerity to claim he's underperforming. 'Merica.

[Lennys Tap]

I'm quite aware the hand is part of the ball, the arm is not....as I stated.  It was also a blocking foul, which 9 times out of 10 would be called at any other part of the game.  And you're right, these announcers have never made any mistakes in any of these games.  LOL. 

Lots of people are paid to be broadcasters and many of them are called idiots, including by you right here on this board.  I guess you have exceptions.  LOL

You're aware that the hand is part of the ball, yet as part or your insistence that LeBron was fouled you said Green got him on the hand. LOL, nice backtrack. As for the blocking call, no f'ing way. LeBron lowered his shoulder and initiated contact - either a no call or a charge.

Jeff Van Gundy is not just a broadcaster. He's a former NBA coach who really knows the game. You're an NBA hater who almost never even watches but are cheering for the Heat. I'll go with his informed and unprejudiced opinion over yours.

[MU B2002]

Jeff Van Gundy... and unprejudiced opinion over yours.

He may be a little prejudiced after the way the Heat treated Stan.

[Sunbelt15]

Because of LeBron's combination of size, speed, strength and athleticism, a lot people view him similarly to the kid in junior high who hit puberty first and is "good" because he's bigger than everyone else. There is a whole lot more to becoming an all-time great basketball than being big and having a lot of God-given abilities. Just ask Derrick Coleman, Eddy Curry or Kwame Brown.

Athleticism gets you the shot, but Skill puts it in the basket. Skill is not God-given. Skill is only obtained through hard work, repetition, and overcoming mistakes. That's why he's considered the best in the world. Those with great talent that didn't work as hard like Tracy McGrady, find themselves on a championship contending team, at the  end of the bench, not contributing at all. Your statement about Lebron is very bad.

[StillAWarrior]

I actually feel sorry for people that watch Lebron and can't appreciate that they are seeing something truly special and unique.

I agree.  My son and I were talking about this exact thing the other day, and I told him to enjoy watching LeBron because he's a great player and guys like him don't come along all the time.  And that's not a popular position to take where we live.

I just don't understand the hate and criticism.  He's an incredible talent and one of the greatest ever.  At this point, it's pretty clear to me that he doesn't have the killer instinct and competitive fire that Jordan had, but who knows what he'll be like in five years.  I personally doubt he'll ever have that -- which in my mind means he'll always come up short in the comparisons to Jordan -- but that doesn't change the fact that he's one of the greatest players I've ever seen.  If the biggest criticism that people have is "you're no Jordan," well...that's not bad.  And like I said, I just don't understand why people seem to hate him just because he's no Jordan.

[GGGG]

Athleticism gets you the shot, but Skill puts it in the basket. Skill is not God-given. Skill is only obtained through hard work, repetition, and overcoming mistakes. That's why he's considered the best in the world. Those with great talent that didn't work as hard like Tracy McGrady, find themselves on a championship contending team, at the  end of the bench, not contributing at all. Your statement about Lebron is very bad.

I agree with this.

But Tracy McGrady is a terrible example.  McGrady's problem is that he has a lot of mileage on his tires.  But in his prime, he averaged 20+ ppg in eight seasons.  (Over 30 in one of those.)  And played in seven straight all star games.  

[MerrittsMustache]

Athleticism gets you the shot, but Skill puts it in the basket. Skill is not God-given. Skill is only obtained through hard work, repetition, and overcoming mistakes. That's why he's considered the best in the world. Those with great talent that didn't work as hard like Tracy McGrady, find themselves on a championship contending team, at the  end of the bench, not contributing at all. Your statement about Lebron is very bad.

I didn't say that I feel that LeBron coasts by on his athleticism alone. I said that's the perception some people have of him and it was in response to another post. Your reading comprehension is very bad.

[MerrittsMustache]

Well then that's a really dumb statement.  I'm not sure what would lead people to believe that he doesn't work hard or put the time in.

BTW, Derrick Coleman doesn't belong on that list.  He was kind of a dick, but he was a good basketball player.  Averaged a double-double five of his first seven seasons in the NBA and stuck around for 16 years.

You consider Derrick Coleman an all-time great? Obviously not. But do you think he lived up to his potential?

[GGGG]

You consider Derrick Coleman an all-time great? Obviously not. But do you think he lived up to his potential?

That's a good question.  Probably not.

[NavinRJohnson]

I've noticed that it is almost always those who don't like LeBron, that bring up the Jordan comparison. I can only assume that is because "he's not as good as Jordan," is about he only "criticism" they have left. Funny thing is, people almost always agree, though I happen to think its close, and it is also too soon to tell. They're different players too. LeBron can guard any position, he's obviously bigger (which some in this thread seem to think should be held against him), I'd say he's a better passer, and probably a better shooter, but for now, I'm not sure anyone would deny that Jordan is the best ever. Ten years from now, we'll see if that's still the case.

[MU82]

I watch a lot of NBA hoops and have done so since I was a wee Knicks fan during the Reed-Frazier era. I also am a huge college hoops fan. Unlike many college basketball fans, I appreciate the NBA as its own great brand of basketball and I especially enjoy the playoffs. OK, those are my "qualifications" as an educated observer. As for LeBron ...

He is one of the 10 best players I've ever seen. (I'm not counting guys like Wilt, Russell, Cousy, Robertson, West and others who, unfortunately, were way past their primes before I became a fan/observer.)

I believe LeBron is the best to have played since Jordan re-retired after the second threepeat. As much as I respect the skills and accomplishments of Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Nash, Nowitzki, Iverson, Kidd, Pierce, Allen, Parker, Wade, Carmelo, Howard, Yao, McGrady, Paul, Stoudemire, Carter, Rose, Durant and others, I don't think anybody has had LeBron's combination of power, speed, scoring, passing, shotblocking, on-ball defending and rebounding. Kobe would rank second on my best-since-MJ list.

I think too many incorrectly believe LeBron "isn't a winner." He actually has won a lot, carrying a mediocre Cleveland team to the NBA Finals and now making his third straight Finals appearance with a talented but flawed Miami team. If he wins his second straight NBA title, he will join some pretty select company. Though still no Jordan in the "killer instinct" department, LeBron has become a much more reliable finisher, hitting many game-winners for the Heat. (He definitely spit the bit late in Game 6, though, and far too many national stories gave him too much credit after Bosh and Allen bailed him out. )

One of the things I really appreciate about LeBron is that as big and strong and naturally talented as he is, he has worked hard to make himself better. He has increased his shooting percentage for six straight years, shooting .565 this season -- that was fifth in the league, which is incredible given the number of outside shots he takes. He has become a significantly better 3-point shooter; his .406 this season ranked in the top 30 and was only .019 lower than that of Novak, who is one of the great shooters ever. He increased his rebound total each of the last three years, averaged his second-most assists and did it all while committing his second-fewest turnovers.

If anything, LeBron often is too unselfish on the court. Of course, as good as Pippen was, Michael never had a teammate who was as much a "gamer" as Wade has been for Miami.

My main beef with LeBron is that he sometimes doesn't hustle after he misses a shot, especially if he thinks he was fouled. As nits go, it's a pretty small one.

As for the comparisons to Jordan, they are very different players. LeBron is more like Magic was -- a super-talented distributor who also can play every position on the floor -- but a better scorer and defender. In addition to all the remarkable individual things Jordan did, he also went 6-for-6 in the NBA Finals, and that's out of LeBron's reach. Jordan also was a cultural icon, more than LeBron has been or probably ever will be even though Jordan was in the pre-Internet, pre-Twitter era.

As others have pointed out, saying somebody isn't as good as Jordan was is hardly condemnation.

Mostly, I really enjoy watching LeBron play. He is special, and we don't get to see special come along very often.

[MU82]

You're aware that the hand is part of the ball, yet as part or your insistence that LeBron was fouled you said Green got him on the hand. LOL, nice backtrack. As for the blocking call, no f'ing way. LeBron lowered his shoulder and initiated contact - either a no call or a charge.

Jeff Van Gundy is not just a broadcaster. He's a former NBA coach who really knows the game. You're an NBA hater who almost never even watches but are cheering for the Heat. I'll go with his informed and unprejudiced opinion over yours.

I of course agree. I like listening to Van Gundy. But he did say Miami should have taken Bosh out of the game about 5 seconds before Bosh got the rebound that led to Allen's game-tying 3-pointer. Curiously, while he repeatedly brought up Popovich's foolish decision to sit Duncan, Van Gundy didn't bring up his own call to sit Bosh.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You're aware that the hand is part of the ball, yet as part or your insistence that LeBron was fouled you said Green got him on the hand. LOL, nice backtrack. As for the blocking call, no f'ing way. LeBron lowered his shoulder and initiated contact - either a no call or a charge.

Jeff Van Gundy is not just a broadcaster. He's a former NBA coach who really knows the game. You're an NBA hater who almost never even watches but are cheering for the Heat. I'll go with his informed and unprejudiced opinion over yours.

Wow, watch the video.  He is blocking him way before the shoulder gets into him. Blocking all the way.  There is no way you can tell me he isn't impeding his way by sliding into his path before contact is made.  That is a blocking foul, on top of the fact that he hits him on the arm.  You want to quibble about the hand, that's fine...I stick by what I said that LeBron was fouled by Green and the ball should have remained with the Heat and a pair of free throws.  Bad call....just like the non-traveling call on Ginobli. 

I realize Van Gundy was a former coach, lots of them out there that are FORMER coaches.  Emphasis on FORMER, just because you were a coach at one point doesn't make you great....every past soldier isn't a great human being or brave...every past CEO isn't necessarily a great business person, etc, etc..  Having said that, I happen to like Van Gundy, actually. I do think he is smart, I also think he says some things in the broadcast that aren't accurate. 

I don't care for the style of the NBA, doesn't mean I don't know the rules and especially the ability of the players.  Let's not divorce ourselves from reality.  Cheering for the Heat?  Not really.  I definitely like to see heads explode, but if I was cheering for the Heat I would be watching all these games and I simply haven't.  I have a mild interest, hope Wade is a champion again, but if he isn't doesn't really matter to me.  I'm not actively cheering for anyone, especially since I really respect Tim Duncan and Popovich.  Duncan was in Milwaukee at the NCAA Tournament when MU hosted and we got to interact a bit.  It was great.  Have no qualms with him getting his 5th either...none whatsoever. 

[StillAWarrior]

Mostly, I really enjoy watching LeBron play. He is special, and we don't get to see special come along very often.

Well said, and precisely the point I was making to my son.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I of course agree. I like listening to Van Gundy. But he did say Miami should have taken Bosh out of the game about 5 seconds before Bosh got the rebound that led to Allen's game-tying 3-pointer. Curiously, while he repeatedly brought up Popovich's foolish decision to sit Duncan, Van Gundy didn't bring up his own call to sit Bosh.

Exactly, he's a smart guy but Lenny is trying to put him on Mt. Rushmore of basketball iconic coaches \ broadcasters....no way.  He makes plenty of mistakes in his broadcasting analysis. 

 

[Lennys Tap]

Exactly, he's a smart guy but Lenny is trying to put him on Mt. Rushmore of basketball iconic coaches \ broadcasters....no way.  He makes plenty of mistakes in his broadcasting analysis. 

 

Again with the hyperbole. I never put him on Mt Rushmore, but compared to a guy who hates the NBA and never even watches it (that would be you), he's pro basketball's answer to Einstein.

[NersEllenson]

One game is not a big deal.  I'm well aware that Jordan got shut down sometimes and had bad games.  The difference is they were flukes.  Lebron has had a tendency to not come up big in the end of games.  Two turnovers down the stretch in game 1, bad, but fixable.  Two in a game 6 with the series on the line...different.  Lebron is one of the greats in the game today.  In my opinion, he isn't in the top 10 ever...likely not in the top 20.  But that is a tall order.

Appreciate your conviction to your argument, but the bolded is an absolutely ludicrous statement. Lebron is 1A to Jordan...and possibly #1.  Lebron has averaged 31.5 in elimination games, just as Jordan did.  Lebron has been clutch.  Lebron flat out willed his team to the game 6 win.  He was a man among boys on that court.  The rejection of Duncan was epic.  6'8" and 265, that can handle ball and beat virtually anyone off the dribble, defend all 5 positions, sees the floor well.  Jordan would have absolutely had his hands full defending Lebron.  I really can't see MJ's post up game being effective against Lebron - which became Jordan's bread and butter his last 7 years roughly.  Lebron MUCH stronger than Jordan.

But to say he isn't Top 20, is so over the top, still can't believe I read that!!

[Eldon]

Yo Chicos,

Any idea why it's so hard to get ABC in Philly?  I read online that you need some kind of super antenna to pick up the signal.  How in the world have they not fixed this glaring problem in the FOURTH largest media market in the country (DMA)?

[nyg]

Appreciate your conviction to your argument, but the bolded is an absolutely ludicrous statement. Lebron is 1A to Jordan...and possibly #1.  Lebron has averaged 31.5 in elimination games, just as Jordan did.  Lebron has been clutch.  Lebron flat out willed his team to the game 6 win.  He was a man among boys on that court.  The rejection of Duncan was epic.  6'8" and 265, that can handle ball and beat virtually anyone off the dribble, defend all 5 positions, sees the floor well.  Jordan would have absolutely had his hands full defending Lebron.  I really can't see MJ's post up game being effective against Lebron - which became Jordan's bread and butter his last 7 years roughly.  Lebron MUCH stronger than Jordan.

But to say he isn't Top 20, is so over the top, still can't believe I read that!!

I'm with Ners on this one.  Lebron is only 28 years old and has three MVPs, that alone puts him in top 10, maybe top 5.  The basketball skills of a guy 6ft 8, 260lbs is just amazing. 

I believe he goes crazy tonight and his legacy continues.