[Paint Touches] Column: Marquette's next great point guard

[Lennys Tap]

Gee, thank you Lenny for coming up with an exception. How about Harden at OKC and Ginobli at San Antonio. As I am sure you are aware, the pro game is a different animal, and by the way, Havlicek (get the spelling correct) started plenty of games also. You simply troll to criticize, Lenny. Never said Buzz or Auerbach were morons--you just did on Auerbach. Opinions are like elbows, most people have them.

You said that you "believe the best players should start". Obviously lots of pretty good coaches (Auerbach, McGuire, Popovich, Buzz, etc) disagree.

As far as trolling to criticize, don't make me laugh. Criticizing our players and coaching staff is about all you do.

[avid1010]

Sorry I forgot: IN Buzz we trust. Translation: He makes no mistakes. i'm wrong so i'm going to play this card every time i stick my foot in my mouth

fixed.

i gave him the benefit of acknowledging and trying to fix his mistakes...but to your point, if you think you know more about the line-up buzz should have used than he does...it's a very safe bet that you're wrong.

buzz makes plenty of mistakes, i'm not sure i know what they are, but i'd find it difficult to believe he makes them over and over again and is successful as he is.  amazing he has been so successful when he can't even get his starting line-up right for the entire season.

you can argue situational aspects of the game, and i can understand the criticism (should have fouled up 3 at the end of the game, etc...), but neither you or i come close to having the knowledge we need to judge if he used the right line-up this year.  when that's the case, i look at the results to guide my judgement, and his results were solid.

[keefe]

Opinions are like elbows, most people have them.

If you use a$$hole as the metaphor rather than elbow you can further the analogy with, "and they all stink..."

[Dr. Blackheart]

You said that you "believe the best players should start". Obviously lots of pretty good coaches (Auerbach, McGuire, Popovich, Buzz, etc) disagree.

As far as trolling to criticize, don't make me laugh. Criticizing our players and coaching staff is about all you do.

Let's not forget Red Holtzman and Phil Jackson, Chuck Daly and Dennis Rodman and Phil Jackson and Toni Kukoc.

[MU82]

Even if Buzz starts Derrick out of loyalty, experience or some other factor, I hope that Duane establishes himself as our next great PG because it will mean so much to the team -- next season and beyond.

[willie warrior]

You said that you "believe the best players should start". Obviously lots of pretty good coaches (Auerbach, McGuire, Popovich, Buzz, etc) disagree.

As far as trolling to criticize, don't make me laugh. Criticizing our players and coaching staff is about all you do.

Sorry Lenny--you have no clue about "all I do". I have criticized Buzz on occasion, but overall he is doiing fine. Judging from your often criticizing other posts, perhaps if the shoe fits...And yes, I still believe that the best players at their postion should start, so why do you worry about my opinion.

[keefe]

Strotty, I appreciate your optimism and really have no quarrels with it.  But this line is cringe-worthy in a sports-cliches-I-hate kind of way:

"And maybe more important than anything he did at Dominican H.S. or the Hall of Famers he spoke with the last two offseasons, Wilson’s swagger is the biggest tip-off that he’ll succeed."

There have been plenty of players with swagger who have failed as freshmen...and plenty who have succeeded without it.

While I agree with this I would say the most egregious overstatement is, "He’s as ready a freshman point guard as Marquette has had, maybe ever."

I realize Mr. Strotman is young but that does not excuse journalistic irresponsibility. To suggest our new recruit is even remotely close to Dean Meminger is fatuous. Meminger not playing varsity as a freshman was due to NCAA regulation; The Dream was likely the most skilled freshman point to arrive on the Marquette campus. (The most talented point was probably Sam Worthen who came from McLennan CC. I am still dismayed how he and Oliver Lee squandered so much talent and promise in pursuit of other illicit recreational activities.)

I am excited that Duane Wilson will be lacing them up for Marquette but he must realize those same shoes were once worn by Meminger, Walton, Boylan, McGuire, Washington, Rivers, Worthen, Miller, Johnson, Diener, et al.... I trust he recognizes the enormity of obligation to that tradition. I am excited to have him join the community and am hopeful he will realize the promise he has demonstrated thus far.



 

[WarriorInNYC]

That is dumb philosophy--keeping Jae out of foul trouble. I do not buy that hogwash for a minute. And all it did is push Williams to transfer. And please don't come back that it was no loss as he is now out of basketball. That just proves the point that he did not deserve to start. Crowder was a stud--his Jr. year also and should have been starting. And starting a guy because he "usually" gets the tip is also a lame excuse. Alternate possession negates that
Some of these decisions leave one scratching their head or nether parts.

OK, as I brought up and another poster touched on, if there are an odd number of possessions, winning the tip gives MU an additional possession.  With the number of games that have come down to one final possession, this is a huge deal.  Otule won the tip in our tourney game against Davidson and we finished the game with the ball (one extra possession than Davidson).  Had Otule not won the tip, do we win that game?

And who do you think should have started over Otule?  You've said in another thread that Gardner isnt a quality big.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think Derrick will start. He very solid. Doesn't turn the ball over. Plays good D. Won't get overwhelmed on the road. He's a tough kid.

Duane will come in at some point. If he plays well, he'll get he's fair share of minutes. If he's "off" in a particular game, or it's not a good match-up, we'll probably see more of Derrick.

It will be very similar to Otule/Gardner (in my mind). A nice combo to have, especially if Duane is a good shooter. Provides MU some punch off the bench to change up the game.

MU's second unit could be pretty damn good:
Gardner
Wilson (one of them)
JJJ or Mayo
Burton

[Lennys Tap]

While I agree with this I would say the most egregious overstatement is, "He’s as ready a freshman point guard as Marquette has had, maybe ever."

I realize Mr. Strotman is young but that does not excuse journalistic irresponsibility. To suggest our new recruit is even remotely close to Dean Meminger is fatuous. Meminger not playing varsity as a freshman was due to NCAA regulation; The Dream was likely the most skilled freshman point to arrive on the Marquette campus. (The most talented point was probably Sam Worthen who came from McLennan CC. I am still dismayed how he and Oliver Lee squandered so much talent and promise in pursuit of other illicit recreational activities.)

I am excited that Duane Wilson will be lacing them up for Marquette but he must realize those same shoes were once worn by Meminger, Walton, Boylan, McGuire, Washington, Rivers, Worthen, Miller, Johnson, Diener, et al.... I trust he recognizes the enormity of obligation to that tradition. I am excited to have him join the community and am hopeful he will realize the promise he has demonstrated thus far.



 

I agree with you Keefe. Dean Meminger and Doc Rivers were both rated the #1 point in the country coming out of high school. I watched the Dream score 40+ in leading the Marquette freshmen over Austin Carr, Sid Catlett, Collis Jones and their Notre Dame teammates. He would have played 35 minutes per game on the varsity if eligible. Doc's career had a few more bumps than Meminger's, but he was no doubt the best player at MU from the moment he set foot on campus.

Nothing against Duane Wilson, but those are incredibly large shoes to fill. If Strotty is right, we're a top 5 team next year and every year until Duane leaves (early), and the recruiting services have him grossly underrated. Here's hoping.

[keefe]

I agree with you Keefe. Dean Meminger and Doc Rivers were both rated the #1 point in the country coming out of high school. I watched the Dream score 40+ in leading the Marquette freshmen over Austin Carr, Sid Catlett, Collis Jones and their Notre Dame teammates. He would have played 35 minutes per game on the varsity if eligible. Doc's career had a few more bumps than Meminger's, but he was no doubt the best player at MU from the moment he set foot on campus.

Nothing against Duane Wilson, but those are incredibly large shoes to fill. If Strotty is right, we're a top 5 team next year and every year until Duane leaves (early), and the recruiting services have him grossly underrated. Here's hoping.

And before people start jumping on us for allegedly slamming Duane Wilson one should consider that any comparison with The Dream or Doc is in fact a compliment.

SI ran an article in November 2000 that surveyed the great Point Guards to come out of NYC's playgrounds. This included Dean Meminger and Sam Worthen.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1021135/1/index.htm

There is a great photo in SI of Worthen and Meminger on a Manhattan rooftop along  with Shaheen Holloway (SETON HALL, 2000,)  Rod Strickland (DEPAUL, 1988,) Dwayne (Pearl) Washington (SYRACUSE, 1988,) Taliek Brown (UCONN, 2004,) Jamaal Tinsley (IOWA STATE, 2001,) Kenny Smith (NORTH CAROLINA, 1987,) Andre Barrett (SETON HALL, 2004,) Majestic Mapp (UVA, 2003,) Derrick Phelps (NORTH CAROLINA, 1994,) Omar Cook (ST. JOHN'S, 2004,) Nate (Tiny) Archibald (UTEP, 1970,) Tommy Kearns (NORTH CAROLINA, 1958,) and Kenny Anderson (GEORGIA TECH, 1993.)

[willie warrior]

OK, as I brought up and another poster touched on, if there are an odd number of possessions, winning the tip gives MU an additional possession.  With the number of games that have come down to one final possession, this is a huge deal.  Otule won the tip in our tourney game against Davidson and we finished the game with the ball (one extra possession than Davidson).  Had Otule not won the tip, do we win that game?

And who do you think should have started over Otule?  You've said in another thread that Gardner isnt a quality big.

I said I did not know if Gardner is considered a quality big, because he certainly was not considered that out of HS, and it appears that Buzz does not think so either or he would be playing more than 20 minutes. I wonder how many people on this board believe that Gardner is a quality big. I have stated previously that the best starting line up would have Otule in with Gardner at PF. McKay could back up either, and Taylor could also back up at PF. In order to clarify. Gardner has developed into a quality big, even though I do not believe that he has been utilized to the best of his talents by Buzz. If McKay proves he can play at this level, then he will be getting 25 plus minutes a game. If McKay proves big time, then you could easily split up the 80 minutes at Center and PF with a breakdown along the lines of: McKay: 25 MPG, Gardner: 25 MPG, Otule 15 to 18 MPG and Taylor the balance.
Now watch all the criticism that Otule, after 6 years deserves more minutes.

[GGGG]

I said I did not know if Gardner is considered a quality big, because he certainly was not considered that out of HS, and it appears that Buzz does not think so either or he would be playing more than 20 minutes. I wonder how many people on this board believe that Gardner is a quality big. I have stated previously that the best starting line up would have Otule in with Gardner at PF.

1. Why do you care, four years later, what his reputation was coming out of high school?  Completely irrelevant. 

2. I believe he is a quality big.  So does USA basketball who just invited him to the World University Games training camp.

http://www.gocreighton.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=1000&ATCLID=208052160

3. The reasons for the minutes breakdown is well documented.  No need to re-hash it here, but if you simply don't believe the reasons then fine.

4. If Gardner plays PF...who does he guard?

[keefe]

Both Meminger and Worthen ranked by SI among greatest NYC PGs ever

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1021136/1/index.htm

[keefe]

he was no doubt the best player at MU from the moment he set foot on campus.

Now hold on Bernstein! Doc Rivers shared the hardwood with a certain Terrell Schlundt.

[willie warrior]

1. Why do you care, four years later, what his reputation was coming out of high school?  Completely irrelevant. 

2. I believe he is a quality big.  So does USA basketball who just invited him to the World University Games training camp.

http://www.gocreighton.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=1000&ATCLID=208052160

3. The reasons for the minutes breakdown is well documented.  No need to re-hash it here, but if you simply don't believe the reasons then fine.

4. If Gardner plays PF...who does he guard?

In answer to your number 4, whoever the matchups dictate, per Buzz's instructions. Is gardner a great defensive player--probably not. But how many guys are? Otule would have matchup problems with some teams also. Your question implies that Gardner cannot guard a PF. Can Otule guard a mobile Center? depends on the matchups. I remeber the problems we had when Hayward had to guard a number of post players. I believe that Otule could well play PF at this level.

By the way, I believe that Gardner is a quality big--he probably would not be rated top 5 in the country, but he has proven himself. I was in Gardner's camp from day one, unlike many who thought he was reach. Go back and read some of the posts from back then.