Cinco de Buzz!

[Spotcheck Billy]

According to the search, I said "so far so good" with Buzz more than 100+ different posts (stopped counting).

you post way too much if you used over 100 (and stopped counting) to declare "so far so good"   

[4everwarriors]

Warts? Most of these retreads, Murray, come with chancres.

[Dawson Rental]

Warts? Most of these retreads, Murray, come with chancres.

Where's that damn dictionary!

[JD]

Chicos, just curious, what do you have to say about Two Tone Tommy and his job at IU?

Thanks.

[Bocephys]

Chicos, just curious, what do you have to say about Two Tone Tommy and his job at IU?

Thanks.

Why must you poke the bear?  Just send him a PM if hearing his argument for 800th time is what gets your jollies.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The 2nd, 3rd and 4th best players on Buzz's 2nd team were jucos brought in by Buzz.  How in the world can anyone argue that behind the amigos & Lazar that Crean did not leave the cupboard bare?

Last I checked, we had an NBA player in Lazar Hayward on that team.  We had a guard named Acker that if he didn't play that year, that team was toast...so much so that Buzz basically begged him back on the team. Cubillan was the 5th leading scorer on that team.  Mbakwe was also left behind, but quit on Buzz and the team the week before Buzz took over, but Mbakwe would have been a junior on that team.

Acker was the team leader in assists, fourth in scoring.  Lazar led the team in scoring, in steals, in rebounds

Bare cupboard...uhm, no.

[The Lens]

Last I checked, we had an NBA player in Lazar Hayward on that team.  We had a guard named Acker that if he didn't play that year, that team was toast...so much so that Buzz basically begged him back on the team. Cubillan was the 5th leading scorer on that team.  Mbakwe was also left behind, but quit on Buzz and the team the week before Buzz took over, but Mbakwe would have been a junior on that team.

Acker was the team leader in assists, fourth in scoring.  Lazar led the team in scoring, in steals, in rebounds

Bare cupboard...uhm, no.

Mbakwe would have been a sophomore.  And he quit.

Mo Acker was only "begged" back because Buzz kicked off earlier in the summer.  When you leave behind:

1 NBA Player
2 sub 6' guards (one who transferred in from Ball State)
1 PF Headcase who missed 70% of the previous year and WHO QUIT IN SEPTEMBER

I hardly call that a half filled cupboard.  Cubillan was the 5th leading scorer because SOMEBODY had to be.  He left 4 guys behind!  Let's compare what KO left behind:

Amal (NBA)
Chris Crawford (NBA)
Tony Miller (possibly MU's greatest PG ever)
Roney Eford
Faisal
Peiper
Abel Joseph
Hutchins

Cubillan and Acker are probably better than Abel and that's it.  It is amazing Buzz did not starve, that cupboard was bare.

[hairy worthen]

Last I checked, we had an NBA player in Lazar Hayward on that team.  We had a guard named Acker that if he didn't play that year, that team was toast...so much so that Buzz basically begged him back on the team. Cubillan was the 5th leading scorer on that team.  Mbakwe was also left behind, but quit on Buzz and the team the week before Buzz took over, but Mbakwe would have been a junior on that team.

Acker was the team leader in assists, fourth in scoring.  Lazar led the team in scoring, in steals, in rebounds

Bare cupboard...uhm, no.

Pretty weak argument even by your standards. You even said it in your own post.

 "We had a guard named Acker that if he didn't play that year, that team was toast" 

What does that say about the rest of the cupboard, pretty bare.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos, just curious, what do you have to say about Two Tone Tommy and his job at IU?

Thanks.

From an IU perspective, I'd give him an A.  Walked into a crapstorm, they thought heavy NCAA sanctions were coming, lost almost all their players as a result and hurt recruiting the first few years.  More importantly from an alum perspective, we hold the program in high esteem for the off the court stuff.  Academics matter.  Staying out of trouble matters.  Indiana is a very conservative state where that stuff matters to a lot of people.  They won the conference title in the best league in the country this year, beat #1 Kentucky last year, got to #1 this year, strong recruiting classes, 6 players on all academic Big Ten (most of any team).

Now, expectations are enormous, he's passed phase 1.  Phase 2 will be much harder, and that is getting the rabid IU fans what they want, Final Fours and national championships.  Sweet 16's were good from hence they came, but now they will want more.  I don't know if he can deliver on that part quite frankly.  But in what he was asked to do in phase 1, he accomplished it and with plenty of head winds (Purdue was strong, Butler strong for first time in history, Big Ten finally strong again, NCAA clouds)....he didn't walk into a fabulous situation short term, but was smart enough to know that it is a fabulous situation long term. 

My prediction, he will not make it to 10 years, but we'll see.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Pretty weak argument even by your standards. You even said it in your own post.

 "We had a guard named Acker that if he didn't play that year, that team was toast" 

What does that say about the rest of the cupboard, pretty bare.

Wrong.  PG most important position on the team.  You can have a lot of good players but if the PG isn't there to get them the ball, doesn't mean squat.  See UNC last few years or UCLA as perfect examples.

With Lazar, Butler, etc, plenty of other good players, but there's a reason why Buzz begged Acker back....we had no point guard and he's the straw that mixes the drink.  Nothing weak at all about my argument....if it weren't true, Buzz wouldn't have begged him back. 

[Lennys Tap]

Pretty weak argument even by your standards. You even said it in your own post.

 "We had a guard named Acker that if he didn't play that year, that team was toast"  

What does that say about the rest of the cupboard, pretty bare.

Good catch Hairy. Show me a team that would be toast without a player of Mo Acker's caliber and I'll show you a team with very limited prospects.

Truth be told, Chicos knows this and has admitted as much. He originally said that if Buzz could just get that team into the tournament he should be COY. He blew that high bar away and got a 6 seed (21-24 ranking) with his midgets and misfits. Now, of course, leaving behind guys like Acker and Cubillan constitutes a juggernaut. No one with any basketball knowledge would deny that Buzz inherited a bare cupboard after year one. But if it boosts Crean's legacy and diminishes Buzz's accomplishments then Mo Acker and David Cubillan, 2 star guys who had never started a game at MU except due to injury before their senior year, suddenly morph into Peyton Siva and Russ Smith.

[Lennys Tap]

With Lazar, Butler, etc, plenty of other good players, but there's a reason why Buzz begged Acker back....we had no point guard and he's the straw that mixes the drink.  Nothing weak at all about my argument....if it weren't true, Buzz wouldn't have begged him back. 

You keep repeating that Buzz "begged" Acker to come back. Why do you make that type of stuff up? Anything, and I do mean anything, to make Buzz look bad. Pathetic.

[GGGG]

You keep repeating that Buzz "begged" Acker to come back. Why do you make that type of stuff up? Anything, and I do mean anything, to make Buzz look bad. Pathetic.

Lennys...he is just being "objective."  Give him a break.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You keep repeating that Buzz "begged" Acker to come back. Why do you make that type of stuff up? Anything, and I do mean anything, to make Buzz look bad. Pathetic.

How does it make him look bad....it makes him look smart.  Always a perceived slight in everything you see....pretty amazing.

[The Lens]

BW: Mo...you're off the team!

Mo: F you!

------

BW: Mo, want to come back?

Mo: F yeah!

[ChicosBailBonds]

Good catch Hairy. Show me a team that would be toast without a player of Mo Acker's caliber and I'll show you a team with very limited prospects.

Truth be told, Chicos knows this and has admitted as much. He originally said that if Buzz could just get that team into the tournament he should be COY. He blew that high bar away and got a 6 seed (21-24 ranking) with his midgets and misfits. Now, of course, leaving behind guys like Acker and Cubillan constitutes a juggernaut. No one with any basketball knowledge would deny that Buzz inherited a bare cupboard after year one. But if it boosts Crean's legacy and diminishes Buzz's accomplishments then Mo Acker and David Cubillan, 2 star guys who had never started a game at MU except due to injury before their senior year, suddenly morph into Peyton Siva and Russ Smith.

Nice straw man....Russ Smith and Peyton Siva...good one.  Why didn't you say Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson, you would have gained just as much respect in your hyperbolic argument.

I would think after this weekends games one would get through their thick head what stars in rating services mean, but you continue to clutch at them to justify talent level of players.  The MOP, a 0 star player.  Erik Williams, a 4 star player.  Players can either play or they can't.  Buzz knew Acker could play, so did Crean when he brought him on board. 

Since when is a cupboard  bare when you have a 1st round future NBA draft choice on your roster, your leading assist man on your roster, and your best 3 point shooter on your roster PLUS supposedly a top 75 recruit in Erik Williams (you love those recruiting services, that's what they said), plus others.  You make it sound like it was a CYO roster.  Hardly.  The cupboard wasn't bare.  Buzz did a very nice job, as I acknowledged many times with that team, but it was hardly bare.

[jesmu84]

Buzz knew Acker could play, so did Crean when he brought him on board. 

Since when is a cupboard  bare when you have a 1st round future NBA draft choice on your roster, your leading assist man on your roster, and your best 3 point shooter on your roster PLUS supposedly a top 75 recruit in Erik Williams (you love those recruiting services, that's what they said), plus others.  You make it sound like it was a CYO roster.  Hardly.  The cupboard wasn't bare.  Buzz did a very nice job, as I acknowledged many times with that team, but it was hardly bare.

1. I thought Acker got on the team when we had an extra scholarship (or somethign like that) and Acker and McNeal were friends and McNeal told Crean Acker would be a good fit, but Crean had never seen Acker play... Am I remembering incorrectly?

2. To be fair, the original poster said the cupboard was bare beyond the Amigos and Lazar.

[Lennys Tap]

How does it make him look bad....it makes him look smart.  Always a perceived slight in everything you see....pretty amazing.

First of all, you made it up. You have NO facts that can support saying Buzz "begged" Acker to come back and you know it. Stating it multiple times as if it's an accepted fact is a lie pure and simple.

Secondly, if you don't think that a coach "begging" a player to do anything is a negative reflection on the coach you have no concept about what the role of a coach should be.

[jmayer1]

Nice straw man....Russ Smith and Peyton Siva...good one.  Why didn't you say Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson, you would have gained just as much respect in your hyperbolic argument.

I would think after this weekends games one would get through their thick head what stars in rating services mean, but you continue to clutch at them to justify talent level of players.  The MOP, a 0 star player.  Erik Williams, a 4 star player.  Players can either play or they can't.  Buzz knew Acker could play, so did Crean when he brought him on board. 

Since when is a cupboard  bare when you have a 1st round future NBA draft choice on your roster, your leading assist man on your roster, and your best 3 point shooter on your roster PLUS supposedly a top 75 recruit in Erik Williams (you love those recruiting services, that's what they said), plus others.  You make it sound like it was a CYO roster.  Hardly.  The cupboard wasn't bare.  Buzz did a very nice job, as I acknowledged many times with that team, but it was hardly bare.

If there was so much talent left behind for Buzz's 2nd year, why did you think MU would very much struggle to make the tourney?

There was Lazar, a very good player that nobody has ever said otherwese, and then a few guys, that really had no business starting on a top 5 Big East team, left from the prior coach's regime.

[The Lens]

PLUS supposedly a top 75 recruit in Erik Williams (you love those recruiting services, that's what they said), plus others.  You make it sound like it was a CYO roster.  Hardly.  The cupboard wasn't bare.  Buzz did a very nice job, as I acknowledged many times with that team, but it was hardly bare.

Buzz recruited Erik Williams! He doesn't come to MU without Buzz.  And besides...Acker is the most forgettable MU PG since Anthony Candelino.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Mbakwe would have been a sophomore.  And he quit.

Mo Acker was only "begged" back because Buzz kicked off earlier in the summer.  When you leave behind:

1 NBA Player
2 sub 6' guards (one who transferred in from Ball State)
1 PF Headcase who missed 70% of the previous year and WHO QUIT IN SEPTEMBER

I hardly call that a half filled cupboard.  Cubillan was the 5th leading scorer because SOMEBODY had to be.  He left 4 guys behind!  Let's compare what KO left behind:

Amal (NBA)
Chris Crawford (NBA)
Tony Miller (possibly MU's greatest PG ever)
Roney Eford
Faisal
Peiper
Abel Joseph
Hutchins

Cubillan and Acker are probably better than Abel and that's it.  It is amazing Buzz did not starve, that cupboard was bare.

Correct, Mo was kicked off the team and then when we realized the Oh Crap moment that we needed a PG, he was begged back on.  I appreciate you being honest and calling it like it is.

Sorry, if a team returns a 1st round NBA player alone, the cupboard isn't bare.  I guess it all comes down to defining what a bare cupboard is.  NBA first rounder, your team leader in assists, your best 3 point shooter, supposedly a top 75 recruit in Erik Williams, etc, etc.  That isn't bare to me.  I said that if Buzz gets them into the dance, he should be COY.  I stand by that.    That doesn't mean the cupboard was bare, it means a lot of those guys played very well their senior seasons, much of that goes to Mr. Buzz Williams. 

I don't see what the argument is about. Buzz did a great job with that team, I said it then and say it now.  So what's the issue?  We just have a different opinion on bare cupboards...bare cupboard is having one returning player that averaged 1.8 points per game and played less than 40 minutes total.  I can give you an example of that.  Having a first round NBA player on your team, plus Acker, plus Fulce, plus Williams, plus Cubillan, etc, etc is not bare.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Good catch Hairy. Show me a team that would be toast without a player of Mo Acker's caliber and I'll show you a team with very limited prospects.

Truth be told, Chicos knows this and has admitted as much. He originally said that if Buzz could just get that team into the tournament he should be COY. He blew that high bar away and got a 6 seed (21-24 ranking) with his midgets and misfits. Now, of course, leaving behind guys like Acker and Cubillan constitutes a juggernaut. No one with any basketball knowledge would deny that Buzz inherited a bare cupboard after year one. But if it boosts Crean's legacy and diminishes Buzz's accomplishments then Mo Acker and David Cubillan, 2 star guys who had never started a game at MU except due to injury before their senior year, suddenly morph into Peyton Siva and Russ Smith.

The irony of this post by you is incredible.  You, of the same ilk that literally wouldn't recognize Jerel McNeal in the NBA when the NBA does, because it diminishes the prior coach's accomplishments.  Character. Revealed.

[jesmu84]

Sorry, if a team returns a 1st round NBA player alone, the cupboard isn't bare.  I guess it all comes down to defining what a bare cupboard is.  NBA first rounder, your team leader in assists, your best 3 point shooter, supposedly a top 75 recruit in Erik Williams, etc, etc.  That isn't bare to me.  I said that if Buzz gets them into the dance, he should be COY.  I stand by that.    That doesn't mean the cupboard was bare, it means a lot of those guys played very well their senior seasons, much of that goes to Mr. Buzz Williams. 

I don't see what the argument is about. Buzz did a great job with that team, I said it then and say it now.  So what's the issue?  We just have a different opinion on bare cupboards...bare cupboard is having one returning player that averaged 1.8 points per game and played less than 40 minutes total.  I can give you an example of that.  Having a first round NBA player on your team, plus Acker, plus Fulce, plus Williams, plus Cubillan, etc, etc is not bare.

I think it was bare in the sense that it was bare for a supposedly top 5 team in the Big East that hadn't just gone through horrendous NCAA sanctions/cleaning house.

[JD]

Fulce, and Cubillan......

I wouldn't use them in your arguement to make it seem like the team was stacked.

[Lennys Tap]

The irony of this post by you is incredible.  You, of the same ilk that literally wouldn't recognize Jerel McNeal in the NBA when the NBA does, because it diminishes the prior coach's accomplishments.  Character. Revealed.

In my book, a guy has to actually PLAY in a league to be a player. I'd feel that way no matter who the player. That the league looks at it differently (for pension purposes mainly) doesn't change my view. It has NOTHING to do with Jerel or Tom Crean. I wish Jerel only the best, hope he plays a ton this year and gets a regular gig next year. His success or lack thereof in the NBA has nothing to do with how I view Tom Crean and his legacy. Nothing.