Aren't we really close to elite status?

[Eldon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Men%27s_Division_I_Basketball_Tournament_all-time_team_records

All-time list of NCAA record by school.  It's not quite up-to-date, but gives us an idea of where we stand relative to the elite programs and the "near elite" programs.

Click on wins to sort by wins

[chren21]

I'm sure some won't like this, but three things keep us from being considered elite. And I'll make the case by comparing us to Kansas, one of those teams everyone agrees is elite.

1.  We have a tradition of putting coaches ahead of the program.

You can't strike up a conversation about Marquette with a casual fan without somehow Al McGuire and/or Buzz Williams being mentioned--and probably some Crean-hate for good measure.  Talk with a Kansas fan, and its Rock Hawk Jay Hawk and championships, and expectations of future success.  Bill Self may or may not come into the conversation at all, and dobutful Phog Allen is referenced.

2.  We have an overwhelming fear that our program cannot survive a coaching change.  

Elite teams don't fear coaching changes. If Bill Self leaves KU at the end of the season, the prevailing attiude of the KU fans will be that that they will go out and get another guy just as good and they'll continue to win. Period.

If Buzz left MU, the general attitude would be we took a huge step back, we'd never match what Buzz accomplished, nobody good would want to coach for MU, and we'll "slip back to St. Louis" levels. We'd then spend years debating how much blame Fr. Pilarz and Larry Williams deserve.  

And it is reflected in attitudes toward recruits as well.  When a top recruit signs with KU, its because the recruit wants to play for KU. Hence when Roy Williams leaves and Self replaces him, all four Williams recruits are on the roster in the fall for new coach Bill Self.  Here, it is widely believed that if Buzz left, it would destroy our recriting class.

3.  We relish being identified as an underdog.

By definition, underdog programs aren't elite. But our fans are conditioned to feel good when we "exceed expectations". We lose two players?  My gosh, we can't be better than 7th . . .in the confernece.  KU loses two players to the NBA lottery?  Their fans are disappointed that they are only picked 7th pre-season--on the NATIONAL polls.  

If we were truly an elite team, then our fans would be looking at the landscape of the future Big East and expecting and 18-0 season.  Not a team in that confrence we shouldn't beat.  Yet, mark my words, by November on this board will have people who project expecatations of 3rd or 4th place.  

We'll see people talking about how much improved Villanova and St. Johns will be. What great teams Georgetown and Creighton are. What a great coach Brad Stevens is.  How we will realize how much Cadougan meant to the program or how good Lockett really was. Xavier will be "back".

And based on all of this our own fans will be afraid to set championship expectations on Marquttte.

Well written and I have to admit that I am guilty of most of this....

[Coleman]

Win a ring and we are close, IMO. Right now, no.

But it really begs the question, what is elite? Even if we win a ring, we won't be in the UNC, Duke, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky circle. If we win, we would be in the next circle: Cuse, Georgetown,  Louisville, Michigan State, UCONN, UCLA circle (I think UCLA used to be in the first group, but isn't there anymore).

Right now we are in the third circle of status, which is maybe those teams in the top 15-25 range. Villanova, Cincinnati, Michigan, Maryland, etc.

The 80s set us way back. We dropped out of the 3rd level completely. Truly the dark ages. In the 70s we were in the first group. The 90s got the ball rolling with some tourney appearances and a Sweet 16 and obviously the 2000s and the Final Four appearance brought us back into the conversation.  We are now on the verge of moving back into the second group. A Final Four appearance puts us in the front of our group, maybe in the back of the next one. A ring solidifies the jump up.

[downtown85]

I'm sure some won't like this, but three things keep us from being considered elite. And I'll make the case by comparing us to Kansas, one of those teams everyone agrees is elite.

1.  We have a tradition of putting coaches ahead of the program.

You can't strike up a conversation about Marquette with a casual fan without somehow Al McGuire and/or Buzz Williams being mentioned--and probably some Crean-hate for good measure.  Talk with a Kansas fan, and its Rock Hawk Jay Hawk and championships, and expectations of future success.  Bill Self may or may not come into the conversation at all, and dobutful Phog Allen is referenced.

2.  We have an overwhelming fear that our program cannot survive a coaching change.  

Elite teams don't fear coaching changes. If Bill Self leaves KU at the end of the season, the prevailing attiude of the KU fans will be that that they will go out and get another guy just as good and they'll continue to win. Period.

If Buzz left MU, the general attitude would be we took a huge step back, we'd never match what Buzz accomplished, nobody good would want to coach for MU, and we'll "slip back to St. Louis" levels. We'd then spend years debating how much blame Fr. Pilarz and Larry Williams deserve.  

And it is reflected in attitudes toward recruits as well.  When a top recruit signs with KU, its because the recruit wants to play for KU. Hence when Roy Williams leaves and Self replaces him, all four Williams recruits are on the roster in the fall for new coach Bill Self.  Here, it is widely believed that if Buzz left, it would destroy our recriting class.

3.  We relish being identified as an underdog.

By definition, underdog programs aren't elite. But our fans are conditioned to feel good when we "exceed expectations". We lose two players?  My gosh, we can't be better than 7th . . .in the confernece.  KU loses two players to the NBA lottery?  Their fans are disappointed that they are only picked 7th pre-season--on the NATIONAL polls.  

If we were truly an elite team, then our fans would be looking at the landscape of the future Big East and expecting and 18-0 season.  Not a team in that confrence we shouldn't beat.  Yet, mark my words, by November on this board will have people who project expecatations of 3rd or 4th place.  

We'll see people talking about how much improved Villanova and St. Johns will be. What great teams Georgetown and Creighton are. What a great coach Brad Stevens is.  How we will realize how much Cadougan meant to the program or how good Lockett really was. Xavier will be "back".

And based on all of this our own fans will be afraid to set championship expectations on Marquttte.

Good post. I agree.

[brewcity77]

Equalizer said it well. I'll add this. You have to sustain top level status over time. Buzz has made us relevant on the heels of what TC started, but it will take another decade at least to be truly elite. Plenty of teams get to Sweet 16s and Elite Eights, but can we have that be the floor and not the ceiling? Can we win 25+ a year every year for a decade with some 30-win seasons sprinkled in? Are we perennially in the preseason top-15? And do we do it year after year, class after class?

We still have a fair way to go, but we're a lot closer than we were a decade ago.

[klyrish]

Equalizer said it well. I'll add this. You have to sustain top level status over time. Buzz has made us relevant on the heels of what TC started, but it will take another decade at least to be truly elite. Plenty of teams get to Sweet 16s and Elite Eights, but can we have that be the floor and not the ceiling? Can we win 25+ a year every year for a decade with some 30-win seasons sprinkled in? Are we perennially in the preseason top-15? And do we do it year after year, class after class?

We still have a fair way to go, but we're a lot closer than we were a decade ago.

Agreed. We're on the right track to becoming elite but not quite there yet.

[foreverwarriors]

How about a coaches opinion on who is Elite?

https://twitter.com/jeffborzello/status/317726573623132160
https://twitter.com/jeffborzello/status/317729614363504641

@jeffborzello: Gregg Marshall: "I'm not a jumper. I'm very content at Wichita State."
@jeffborzello: Gregg Marshall listed UCLA among Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina, Kansas and Indiana as the elite head coaching jobs in college basketball.

[Goose]

Equalizer

I think your post a lot of merit. In addition, probably good idea to adjust thought process based off your post. Hate to admit it but your putting coaches ahead of program is something I am very guilty of. Probably stems from the fact of being spoiled by Al, who actually was bigger than the program. He was once in a lifetime type thing and was right guy at the right place in time. Since Al left I have valued program over coach, but always afraid next hire is the one to backwards.

[JimmyLikesBasketball]

I also think we are getting closer to "elite" status. But without thinking too hard I thought of the following programs that are far ahead of us regarding elite-status. How many "Elite" programs can there be? Who am I missing?

Kentucky
UCLA
Kansas
Indiana
North Carolina
Duke
UCONN
Syracuse
Louisville
Ohio State
Michigan State
Florida

[Stretchdeltsig]

Marquette is an elite program period! 

Buzz is highly respected and highly paid for his efforts.  It would be a down step to go to Minnesota.
It is not bad to have great coaches.  Why the resistance to Marquette being elite?  It's had to comprehend with the amount of money we spend and with our incredible record going back 50 years.  We are elite!!!!

[The Equalizer]

I also think we are getting closer to "elite" status. But without thinking too hard I thought of the following programs that are far ahead of us regarding elite-status. How many "Elite" programs can there be? Who am I missing?

Kentucky
UCLA
Kansas
Indiana
North Carolina
Duke
UCONN
Syracuse
Louisville
Ohio State
Michigan State
Florida

I don't think Syracuse, UConn or Florida are there.  I think the coach transcends the program in each case.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't think Syracuse, UConn or Florida are there.  I think the coach transcends the program in each case.

So does Izzo at Michigan State.

[Goose]

There are different levels of elite. As I said on earlier post we are a fragile elite program at the moment. We are upper tier of programs but do not have luxury to all back very far. The blue chipper programs can have a break and always be blue chippers. We were that type of program for a decade under Al. What I like best is the level of excellence wanted from fans right now. Winning makes a culture have a different look. MU and it's fans have a look of winners at the moment.

[MUMountin]

I also think we are getting closer to "elite" status. But without thinking too hard I thought of the following programs that are far ahead of us regarding elite-status. How many "Elite" programs can there be? Who am I missing?

Kentucky
UCLA
Kansas
Indiana
North Carolina
Duke
UCONN
Syracuse
Louisville
Ohio State
Michigan State
Florida

I don't think Syracuse, UConn or Florida are there.  I think the coach transcends the program in each case.

So does Izzo at Michigan State.

Not sure if he was actually calling them elite or simply ahead of MU.  All semantics, really.  (Personally, I'd call the top 5-6 "bluebloods" and the next group as "elite"). 

Besides JLB's list, the other schools you could possibly add are Arizona, and I think they are still somewhat in doubt right now.  I also think that I'd put G'town ahead of us overall, although we are not that far off (especially based on the current run).  Michigan probably also slightly ahead of us.  Otherwise, I'd put us on even ground with any one else currently.  Still has us pretty firmly in the top 15-20 programs nationally.

[bilsu]

Let have a little perspective here.
We were in the Big East 8 years and finally tied for the championship.
In that same time Kansas has won the Big 12 every year. That is elite status.
We have never won the Big East tournament, that is not elite.

Over the next 50 years we could average 10 more wins a year than Kentucky, North Carolina and Kansas and we still would not have a s many wins as them. We would barely catch Duke. We have a very good program, but we are not elite.

[Niv Berkowitz]

We are on the verge of being a present day elite program. But making one elite has absolutely nothing to do with who wears the most garb.

Madison has 45,000 students people! They are tHE big school in the state. They are good. Only way MU would overtake them in popularity in WI is if UW went to the toilet forgive plus years.

Out of state however, I'll bet MU would get more respect and pub than here. UW is a behemoth and they aren't going anywhere. I often say we are Sparty-like here in WI with a Michigan comes. But when u compare the schools sizes and geographic reach that not fair.

[Chicos' Buzz Scandal Countdown]

I think a big part of being elite is consistency, as in starting and ending the year in the top 10 rankings for several years. That's when you enter the "come-to-mind" of the casual & devoted basketball fan alike. I consider Syracuse an elite program even though they're playing to go to their first FF in 10 years, as well. They are a dangerous team year in and year out.

[the eagle]

As much as my biased head wants to say elite, I am sticking with not elite. I'm an Ohio guy...born and raised...and no one here would say elite. When I go to work a handful of people will mention Al to me, but outside of that I am the kid who went to school somewhere in Michigan. When i told people i was going to MU out of high school, i got a ton of blank looks..."where's that". If you are elite, people nationwide have heard of you. They also know where the darn place is. The relatable school mentioned to me around here is Xavier.

Probably why I despise Xavier.

[bilsu]

You can also look at this way. Elite programs do not consistantly lose the top in state recruits to out of state programs. MU to be elite has to be seriously considered by players like Tokoto.

[keefe]

As much as my biased head wants to say elite, I am sticking with not elite. I'm an Ohio guy...born and raised...and no one here would say elite. When I go to work a handful of people will mention Al to me, but outside of that I am the kid who went to school somewhere in Michigan. When i told people i was going to MU out of high school, i got a ton of blank looks..."where's that". If you are elite, people nationwide have heard of you. They also know where the darn place is. The relatable school mentioned to me around here is Xavier.

Probably why I despise Xavier.

Ask the average American where or what is Duke and you'll get a blank stare.

[the eagle]

Ask the average American where or what is Duke and you'll get a blank stare.

See I will respectfully disagree with that though. People at least know what state Duke is in. Furthermore, I feel like Duke is at the stage where if a casual conversation of college basketball is started, Duke will be mentioned somewhere in that conversation.

And trust me I am NOT a duke fan in any way.

[keefe]

See I will respectfully disagree with that though. People at least know what state Duke is in. Furthermore, I feel like Duke is at the stage where if a casual conversation of college basketball is started, Duke will be mentioned somewhere in that conversation.

And trust me I am NOT a duke fan in any way.

Average American. Not college educated basketball fans. They will not know where or what is Duke, Georgetown, Marquette, Butler, etc... In fact, if you ask what is Berkeley rather than Cal you will likely get the same look.

[Galway Eagle]

No we aren't. We are a strong program with great tradition but not elite.  If we win today we are back toward elite but the way I see it we are just an upper tier team on it's way back to glory. 

[MU82]

I'm sure some won't like this, but three things keep us from being considered elite. And I'll make the case by comparing us to Kansas, one of those teams everyone agrees is elite.

1.  We have a tradition of putting coaches ahead of the program.

You can't strike up a conversation about Marquette with a casual fan without somehow Al McGuire and/or Buzz Williams being mentioned--and probably some Crean-hate for good measure.  Talk with a Kansas fan, and its Rock Hawk Jay Hawk and championships, and expectations of future success.  Bill Self may or may not come into the conversation at all, and dobutful Phog Allen is referenced.

2.  We have an overwhelming fear that our program cannot survive a coaching change.  

Elite teams don't fear coaching changes. If Bill Self leaves KU at the end of the season, the prevailing attiude of the KU fans will be that that they will go out and get another guy just as good and they'll continue to win. Period.

If Buzz left MU, the general attitude would be we took a huge step back, we'd never match what Buzz accomplished, nobody good would want to coach for MU, and we'll "slip back to St. Louis" levels. We'd then spend years debating how much blame Fr. Pilarz and Larry Williams deserve.  

And it is reflected in attitudes toward recruits as well.  When a top recruit signs with KU, its because the recruit wants to play for KU. Hence when Roy Williams leaves and Self replaces him, all four Williams recruits are on the roster in the fall for new coach Bill Self.  Here, it is widely believed that if Buzz left, it would destroy our recriting class.

3.  We relish being identified as an underdog.

By definition, underdog programs aren't elite. But our fans are conditioned to feel good when we "exceed expectations". We lose two players?  My gosh, we can't be better than 7th . . .in the confernece.  KU loses two players to the NBA lottery?  Their fans are disappointed that they are only picked 7th pre-season--on the NATIONAL polls.  

If we were truly an elite team, then our fans would be looking at the landscape of the future Big East and expecting and 18-0 season.  Not a team in that confrence we shouldn't beat.  Yet, mark my words, by November on this board will have people who project expecatations of 3rd or 4th place.  

We'll see people talking about how much improved Villanova and St. Johns will be. What great teams Georgetown and Creighton are. What a great coach Brad Stevens is.  How we will realize how much Cadougan meant to the program or how good Lockett really was. Xavier will be "back".

And based on all of this our own fans will be afraid to set championship expectations on Marquttte.

This is a well-written conversation starter. A few thoughts:

1. 1.  We have a tradition of putting coaches ahead of the program.

Nationally, few would say Duke isn't elite. And Duke is all about Coach K. Indiana? Elite, of course. But until Crean actually wins something, when you think of Indiana you don't think about Keith Smart or Kent Benson or Isiah Thomas. You think about Bobby Knight. Period. So there are two absolutely elite basketball schools that put the coach ahead of (or at least on even ground with) the program. Of the "near-elites" the same is true of Michigan State, UConn and others.

3.  We relish being identified as an underdog.

The fans' attitude has only a minor bearing on who is elite or not. After Knight left Indiana, believe me, Indiana fans -- and players and the school itself -- considered themselves the underdog during their Final Four run under Mike Davis. The year Kansas won the title under Larry Brown and Danny Manning they made a big deal of how remarkable their underdog run was.

2.  We have an overwhelming fear that our program cannot survive a coaching change.  

Again, I'm not sure fan attitude has much to do with whether a program is elite or not, but this point certainly rings true even if projected outside the program. Most national observers do not consider Marquette to be a "destination" program for a coach. Kevin O'Neill left and so did Crean. Otherwise, since Al, we were a revolving door. And now every time there is an opening -- even at effin Minnesota and SMU -- Buzz's name is prominently mentioned.

Times were different in 1977, especially regarding media coverage, but if that situation had happened today -- the Marquette job opening up after a legendary coach had taken the school to a national championship on the heels of a decade of outstanding accomplishments -- would that job and that program have been considered "elite" by the national media? I think so.

"Elite" is an opinion bestowed upon a program from outside the program. We aren't there yet. Maybe we never really will get there. Time will tell. Buzz very publicly rejecting all overtures from programs that are accepted as elite (such as UCLA) will help. So would winning a national title. Or two. Or three.

[Goose]

In a discussion with another MU junkie last night we decided there is a difference between elite program and elite teams. MU falls into the elite teams discussion over the last decade. The elite programs have been discussed a ton here and we all know the 5-10 that fall into that group. Elite programs to me are similar to elite academic schools. You have a list that most everyone agrees with and then next group is when debate comes into play.

MU's on court performance for past decade has created elite team status. Whether we believe we enough respect is our chip on our shoulder. Getting the #3 seed this year proves to me people that get ball get that MU is a high level. I personally would have given us a #5 seed and I am a homer. While I wish we were thought of nationally like we were under Al I do understand world has changed. To think we are going to jump into UNC, DUKe, Indiana or Kansas grouping overnight is unrealisitic. What does frustrate me though is being thought of being on par with Xavier, Butler or other schools with less history.