Notre Dame Dumping the ACC for the C7?

[Aughnanure]

So...do you guys not want ND to join for a year out of spite? 

ND elevates the status and competitveness for the league even if it is only for 1 year.  Midwest, Catholic, good basketball team,...so the only reason I can see you guys not wanting them is out of spite.

Horrible reason.

And when they leave it'll just reinforce to casual fans that we are an inferior league. Why would we want that narrative to be told....again?! This is why I'm against adding UConn, Cincy, etc unless it is for the long-haul.

[Goose]

I would have to think ND would want and get a lot of power if they joined C7. The added power and flexibility in their direction could be worth less money to them. Obviously ND football is big fish in ACC but the basketball is nice addition, not game changer. The more I think about it the more it makes sense. ND is in strong position right now if they are considering C7. Funnier things have happened.

[Tugg Speedman]

And when they leave it'll just reinforce to casual fans that we are an inferior league. Why would we want that narrative to be told....again?! This is why I'm against adding UConn, Cincy, etc unless it is for the long-haul.

Last September ND announced it is leaving for the ACC.  The rules say you have to stay 27 months before you can leave, like Syracuse and Pitt are now completing.

So ND played in the BE this year, and will play in the BE next year (the C7), then 27 month after September 2012 they jump to the ACC just as the rules and the September 2012 announce said.

Nothing could be more stable than that ... and that is what the non MUscoop posters in the country will see.

[dwaderoy2004]

They can come play for a year if they want.  But unless they officially join the league, they get no money from the new conference, whether it be TV money or NCAA tournament credits.  We're doing them a favor.

[The Process]

Last September ND announced it is leaving for the ACC.  The rules say you have to stay 27 months before you can leave, like Syracuse and Pitt are now completing.

So ND played in the BE this year, and will play in the BE next year (the C7), then 27 month after September 2012 they jump to the ACC just as the rules and the September 2012 announce said.

Nothing could be more stable than that ... and that is what the non MUscoop posters in the country will see.

... except they didn't break away *with* us.  We left them rotting with the carcass of the LEAST (Leftover East) for those 27 months.  Now, had they said up-front with the C7 "We think this is a great idea!  We'd love to spend the bridge year with you guys," maybe it'd be a little closer to what you're saying from a stability perspective.  But that didn't happen.

Further, the NBEAST is not the same as the old BEAST, other than the name.  While we may be taking the name, I don't think we're taking the bylaws with us.  I would suspect those either stay with the LEAST or go away completely.  So your argument about continuity due to a 27 month period for them really doesn't add up.

[We R Final Four]

the new conference will be a revolving door for the first few years anyway.

Why will the new conference be a 'revolving door' for the first few years?

Who of the C7 +2 is leaving to make this door revolve?

[bilsu]

I would welcome them joining but absolutely not for just one year. The door's open now and men must make the big decisions.

You take them, if even for one year, because that could lead them to joining permanently. Tell them no for one year and Notre Dame will never join.

[Tugg Speedman]

... except they didn't break away *with* us.  We left them rotting with the carcass of the LEAST (Leftover East) for those 27 months.  Now, had they said up-front with the C7 "We think this is a great idea!  We'd love to spend the bridge year with you guys," maybe it'd be a little closer to what you're saying from a stability perspective.  But that didn't happen.

Further, the NBEAST is not the same as the old BEAST, other than the name.  While we may be taking the name, I don't think we're taking the bylaws with us.  I would suspect those either stay with the LEAST or go away completely.  So your argument about continuity due to a 27 month period for them really doesn't add up.

Who other than MUscoopers care about this?  Fans?  Recruits?  Coaches?  Fox?

[MerrittsMustache]

You take them, if even for one year, because that could lead them to joining permanently. Tell them no for one year and Notre Dame will never join.

So what?

[Tugg Speedman]

Why will the new conference be a 'revolving door' for the first few years?

Who of the C7 +2 is leaving to make this door revolve?

Schools will be rumored coming on-board and will not.  To most fans it will look like a revolving door.

[Litehouse]

I think it helps stability.  Everyone knows they're in the Big East for at least one more year before they go to the ACC.  If they're with us, it just reinforces that we're the real Big East.

[Tugg Speedman]

I think it helps stability.  Everyone knows they're in the Big East for at least one more year before they go to the ACC.  If they're with us, it just reinforces that we're the real Big East.

+1

I realize that most of the ND hate is emotional with no focus but if we leave and ND stays behind ... the old BE will say we are Louisville (as they cannot jump to the ACC either) Uconn, Cincy, ND, Memphis, Temple and they will argue that next year that will be a better basketball conference than the New BE.  They will argue ND stayed behind because they chose the better BBall conference for next year.  Is that a wrong argument?  With ND in the old BE might be.

Take ND with us and the old BE loses one of these schools and it greatly lessens that argument.  Louisville leaves the following year and that argument is dead.

So yes, a good case can be made not taking ND makes us more unstable (if I'm understanding this argument correctly).  Especially in the critical first year of a new conference.

[We R Final Four]

Schools will be rumored coming on-board and will not.  To most fans it will look like a revolving door.

Just so I am clear, it is the RUMORS about leaving the C7+2 which will be the revolving door, not actually SCHOOLS leaving.

There maybe rumors, but I am willing to bet none of the C7+2 schools will be leaving in the 'first few years.'

[The Process]

Who other than MUscoopers care about this?  Fans?  Recruits?  Coaches?  Fox?

Other than the fact that what I said blows your claim up...?

And you didn't even touch what I said about the bylaws being different.  Glad to see you're realizing that your 27 month argument is flawed at best and completely wrong in all likelihood.

[Tugg Speedman]

Other than the fact that what I said blows your claim up...?

And you didn't even touch what I said about the bylaws being different.  Glad to see you're realizing that your 27 month argument is flawed at best and completely wrong in all likelihood.

How do you know the bylaws regarding this are different?  Have they been written?  Have you seen them?

My argument is a perception argument, which is what this "stability" BS is about.  ND announced they will leave the BE after two seasons.  They are in the BE now.  They will be in the BE (C7) next season.  Then they will leave.  This was announced in September 2012 so playing in the BE again next season (the C7) is not even a story.  It is expected.

That is the perception to everyone that does not post on MUscoop.

[The Process]

How do you know the bylaws regarding this are different?  Have they been written?  Have you seen them?

My argument is a perception argument, which is what this "stability" BS is about.  ND announced they will leave the BE after two seasons.  They are in the BE now.  They will be in the BE (C7) next season.  Then they will leave.  This was announced in September 2012 so playing in the BE again next season (the C7) is not even a story.  It is expected.

That is the perception to everyone that does not post on MUscoop.

You haven't seen them, I haven't seen them, but perhaps Keefe has.  Point is, this is a *new* conference, albeit one that bought the naming rights.  For example, I get emails all the time from an online "Circuit City."  That entity bought the name out of bankruptcy court.  Does it operate using the same organizational charter or anything else that the B&M Circuit City did?  Nope.  Basically the same thing here:  We're getting the name of an organization that we are leaving. We may get the MSG contract as well.  But neither of those things mean that we are the "same" Big East.

I see you make this now into a perception argument rather than tying it to the 27 month "rule" that you did earlier.  Glad to see you're moving off of that stance.

At the end of the day, ND is operating under the same 27 month rule as 'Cuse and Pitt - you are correct about that much.  HOWEVER, that is with respect to the LEAST and the bylaws that will still be theirs at the end of the day, not the C7/BEAST.

Would it be better if I explained this with sock puppets?

[Tugg Speedman]

You haven't seen them, I haven't seen them, but perhaps Keefe has.  Point is, this is a *new* conference, albeit one that bought the naming rights.  For example, I get emails all the time from an online "Circuit City."  That entity bought the name out of bankruptcy court.  Does it operate using the same organizational charter or anything else that the B&M Circuit City did?  Nope.  Basically the same thing here:  We're getting the name of an organization that we are leaving. We may get the MSG contract as well.  But neither of those things mean that we are the "same" Big East.

I see you make this now into a perception argument rather than tying it to the 27 month "rule" that you did earlier.  Glad to see you're moving off of that stance.

At the end of the day, ND is operating under the same 27 month rule as 'Cuse and Pitt - you are correct about that much.  HOWEVER, that is with respect to the LEAST and the bylaws that will still be theirs at the end of the day, not the C7/BEAST.

Would it be better if I explained this with sock puppets?

This circular argument with no point proves my argument better than I can ...

That is no one other than MUscoop posters buried in the bark of one tree see ND inclusion for 1 year as a sign of weakness and instability for the forest in general.  Today ND is a member of the BE, tomorrow ND will be a member of the BE, big deal.  Then they leave like they announced six months ago, again, big deal.

Now try this ...

... the old BE will say we are Louisville (as they cannot jump to the ACC either) Uconn, Cincy, ND, Memphis, Temple and they will argue that next year that will be a better basketball conference than the New BE.  They will argue ND stayed behind because they chose the better BBall conference for next year.  Is that a wrong argument?  With ND in the old BE it might be.

Take ND with us and the old BE loses one of these schools and it greatly lessens that argument.  Louisville leaves the following year and that argument is dead.

So yes, a good case can be made not taking ND makes us more unstable (if I'm understanding this argument correctly).  Especially in the critical first year of a new conference.

 

[Marquette_g]

I want whatever Fox wants because they are footing the bill.  If they want ND for a year fine by me.  If they want Richmond instead of Creighton, fine by me.  This has always been about television money so I want to keep our benefactor happy.

[Pakuni]

I want whatever Fox wants because they are footing the bill.  If they want ND for a year fine by me.  If they want Richmond instead of Creighton, fine by me.  This has always been about television money so I want to keep our benefactor happy.

What if they insist on a glowing ball and robots?

[Marquette_g]

What if they insist on a glowing ball and robots?

It would still make for more interesting basketball than what the Badgers play.

[The Process]

This circular argument with no point proves my argument better than I can ...

That is no one other than MUscoop posters buried in the bark of one tree see ND inclusion for 1 year as a sign of weakness and instability for the forest in general.  Today ND is a member of the BE, tomorrow ND will be a member of the BE, big deal.  Then they leave like they announced six months ago, again, big deal.

Now try this ...

... the old BE will say we are Louisville (as they cannot jump to the ACC either) Uconn, Cincy, ND, Memphis, Temple and they will argue that next year that will be a better basketball conference than the New BE.  They will argue ND stayed behind because they chose the better BBall conference for next year.  Is that a wrong argument?  With ND in the old BE it might be.

Take ND with us and the old BE loses one of these schools and it greatly lessens that argument.  Louisville leaves the following year and that argument is dead.

So yes, a good case can be made not taking ND makes us more unstable (if I'm understanding this argument correctly).  Especially in the critical first year of a new conference.

You clearly don't understand the argument, so let me pull out the sock puppets.

1. ND announced that it would be leaving the old BEAST last September and under the old BEAST's bylaws would have to stay 27 months.
2. C7 splits off to form a new conference.  They are technically also required to stay 27 months BUT... $$$$ speaks here and so they begin to negotiate with the LEAST.
3. C7 gets BEAST name from the LEAST and possibly the MSG contract.  Bylaws regarding "staying" do not transfer, as this is a new conference with its own rules and bylaws that need to be created, so anyone who says they're leaving independently of the C7 (i.e. Notre Dame) is bound to the 27 months with the LEAST, unless they - you guessed it - NEGOTIATE and pay $$$ to leave earlier.
4. Since said negotiation would be all over the 4-letter sports "news" network, EVERYONE would know that they're leaving the LEAST early.
5.  Since EVERYONE would know that they're leaving early, your perception argument doesn't hold water.  They're not "staying" in the NBEAST, they're leaving the LEAST to join the NBEAST... for a year.

Does that make it clearer?

[Warriors10]

So ND is not worth 10% (1/10) of one year for the conference SoS attention but being forced to take Richmond/Creighton/SLU in a hurry to get to 10 is a better deal?  Take ND, get to 10, and take your time on how to expand.

Remember we have the BE name.  So ND is going from the BE to the ... BE.  Only MUscoop posters think this is a one-year rental.  The other 310 million people in the United States think this makes perfect sense (for ND to be part of year 1) and does not to make the conference unstable (and I still contend that "stability" is used by posters to sound smart but means nothing)

The money is not contingent on ND joining for a year so you are going to get 10% either way.  Regardless, why should the C7 foot the bill of leaving/upstarting the BE and allow ND to take 10% of the pie without putting any skin in the game?  I don't care if they are Notre Dame, crap I don't care who it is, it's not worth it.

Second, this argument about stability is stupid too.  The new BE is the legit BE, not the old-school BE, but will still be recognized by the casual viewer as the BE.  Just because ND is not in the conference does not mean people won't equate the C7/X/Butler/whomever as the BE.

Edit: Also we owe Fox nothing.  They are making the investment in the C7 and if it works out for them it will continuously work out for us.  They are starting their own channels and without us they don't have content (worth watching night-in and night-out.  It's a relationship I am glad we have and hopefully it works out (for both of us) for a long time, but we are helping them out as much as they are helping us out.

[Litehouse]

4. Since said negotiation would be all over the 4-letter sports "news" network, EVERYONE would know that they're leaving the LEAST early.

It would be reported, but I'm not sure how many people would really pay attention or understand what's really going on.  If the C7 would work on spinning the story as the rightful heirs to the name and the continuity of the conference, I don't think most people would care.

[Pakuni]

 Just because ND is not in the conference does not mean people won't equate the C7/X/Butler/whomever as the BE.

Agreed.
Since when has Notre Dame been synonymous with the Big East?
Syracuse, Pitt, UConn, sure. But Notre Dame? No.

[Knight Commission]

Never going to happen. When their NBC deal expires, ND will want (and get) their own channel, ala Texas.