Texas

[MuMark]

Preseason games now count as being an NBA player?

Trevor might not be as sure as you think.....bad character history, knee trouble and has the size of an NBA 3 but the skill set of an NBA 4/5.

Throw in that he is soon to be 24 years old  trying to break into a league that typically drafts guys on potential

Might make it but  hardly a sure thing.

[brewcity77]

Yes.  He is an official NBA player.  Played in 3 games....two in 2009-10 and one last year.


http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jerel_mcneal/

McNeal has played in three preseason games per NBA.com. Maybe some disagree, but I think until he plays a regular season minute, he's not a NBA player.

[NersEllenson]

Really?
You need clarification of the statement:

"Just that it's a different dynamic, the result of which is not necessarily predictable."

OK. I'll go s-l-o-w.
It is not known how Buzz would fare with NBA ready/bound McDonald's AAs.
It is not known because he's never coached NBA ready/bound McDonald's AAs.
"It is not known" does not mean he would or would not succeed. It does not mean he would have trouble. It means "it is not known."

Clear enough?
Now, perhaps I simply lack your omniscience when it comes to these things. But until proven otherwise, I stand by my statement. And, please, try to keep up.

I have no desire to "keep up," with your dimwit pretzel logic.  So just to clarify:  You have questions/hesitations as to if Buzz could recruit and be successful with 5-star players at a place like Texas - all based on the fact that Buzz has never had 5-star talent to work with, and by your assumption because they are 5 star talent they may not "come in with a chip on their shoulder knowing they'll have to outwork everyone else?"  Okay.

If you would, try to make a relevant and valid point every once in awhile...you are in big slump of late.

[Lennys Tap]

Three games, all preseason.  He has also signed a contract, which by NBA stats means he is an official NBA player, he just doesn't have an official stat line but was on a NBA roster.

Just as auditing a 1 hour music appreciation class can "technically" make one an MU alum (something I learned from you) so (I guess) can signing a contract but never playing a minute make one "technically" an NBA player. Of course any real alum or NBA player would fall over laughing at the claim, but what do they know?

 

[Pakuni]

I have no desire to "keep up," with your dimwit pretzel logic.  So just to clarify:  You have questions/hesitations as to if Buzz could recruit and be successful with 5-star players at a place like Texas - all based on the fact that Buzz has never had 5-star talent to work with, and by your assumption because they are 5 star talent they may not "come in with a chip on their shoulder knowing they'll have to outwork everyone else?"  Okay.

If you would, try to make a relevant and valid point every once in awhile...you are in big slump of late.

Oh, irony.

[GGGG]

I have no desire to "keep up," with your dimwit pretzel logic.  So just to clarify:  You have questions/hesitations as to if Buzz could recruit and be successful with 5-star players at a place like Texas - all based on the fact that Buzz has never had 5-star talent to work with, and by your assumption because they are 5 star talent they may not "come in with a chip on their shoulder knowing they'll have to outwork everyone else?"  Okay.

I think Pakuni has a point.  Ben Howland succeeded at Pitt by doing much of the same thing Buzz is doing now...recruiting second and third-tier talent and "busting their balls."  Everyone thought he would succeed at UCLA - imagine the talent that UCLA gets meshing with Howland's coaching ability!!!!

Well it hasn't quite worked out that way. 

So maybe it works...maybe it doesn't.  So for Pakuni to say "it is not known," I think that is a very valid statement to make.

[Hards Alumni]

I think Pakuni has a point.  Ben Howland succeeded at Pitt by doing much of the same thing Buzz is doing now...recruiting second and third-tier talent and "busting their balls."  Everyone thought he would succeed at UCLA - imagine the talent that UCLA gets meshing with Howland's coaching ability!!!!

Well it hasn't quite worked out that way. 

So maybe it works...maybe it doesn't.  So for Pakuni to say "it is not known," I think that is a very valid statement to make.

It is known.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Every big school that hires a successful coach from a small school/small conference thinks: "He will be even better when he has a larger budget and bigger name to sell."

It's never guaranteed. Lots of factors. Lots of variables. Lots of examples of coach's who didn't improve with a bigger name and bigger budget.

Now, this is not a direct commentary upon Buzz and UT, but rather the notion that it's simply a lock that Buzz would automatically be more successful at UT.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Preseason games now count as being an NBA player?

Trevor might not be as sure as you think.....bad character history, knee trouble and has the size of an NBA 3 but the skill set of an NBA 4/5.

Throw in that he is soon to be 24 years old  trying to break into a league that typically drafts guys on potential

Might make it but  hardly a sure thing.

Signing a contract with a team is what counts.   If you are the backup QB on the Green Bay Packers and you never play one snap, are you not a NFL player?

I spoke to my guy over at Elias Sports Bureau today and asked the simple question...when is a player considered officially in the league (NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, etc).  He laughed..."when he signs a contract and is on a roster.  period.  He can never get an at bat, never play a minute, never take a snap, but at that point he is officially in the league and recognized as such"

Sorry this disappoints so many of you that one of our guys made the NBA with all his hard work and you don't want to acknowledge that because he got into a game.  Fact is, the NBA acknowledges it and we should as well.  Strange that some here don't.

[GGGG]

It is known.

Based on????

[Hards Alumni]

Based on????

Sorry.  My post really had nothing to do with the comment.

Its a quote... I won't go into it since it is stupid.

[NersEllenson]

I think Pakuni has a point.  Ben Howland succeeded at Pitt by doing much of the same thing Buzz is doing now...recruiting second and third-tier talent and "busting their balls."  Everyone thought he would succeed at UCLA - imagine the talent that UCLA gets meshing with Howland's coaching ability!!!!

Well it hasn't quite worked out that way. 

So maybe it works...maybe it doesn't.  So for Pakuni to say "it is not known," I think that is a very valid statement to make.

Well hopefully Buzz stays at MU for another 5 years, and we can see what he does with next year's class of 4, 4-star talents.  If I were a betting man, I'd go heavy that Buzz would do even better if he had consistent classes of 4 and 5 star talent.   The Howland example is a good one - so I'll give you that.  Nonetheless, I get the feeling players relate to Buzz a little better than a guy like Howland...

[Golden Avalanche]

I think Pakuni has a point.  Ben Howland succeeded at Pitt by doing much of the same thing Buzz is doing now...recruiting second and third-tier talent and "busting their balls."  Everyone thought he would succeed at UCLA - imagine the talent that UCLA gets meshing with Howland's coaching ability!!!!

Well it hasn't quite worked out that way. 

So maybe it works...maybe it doesn't.  So for Pakuni to say "it is not known," I think that is a very valid statement to make.

I think calling out Howland is a stretch.

Howland did very well energizing the program early on in reaching three Final Fours in consecutive years. Recruited some ridiculous NBA talent. Once revived, Adidas sniffed the return of a sleeping giant and has forced some bad kids on him of late these past four seasons.

Even very good coaches can't overcome every obstacle in their path. I'd still say Howland has succeeded at UCLA. Then again, in today's society, memory is short and accomplishments are always attained with an asterisk so no surprise some feel he has failed.

[Pakuni]

I think calling out Howland is a stretch.

Howland did very well energizing the program early on in reaching three Final Fours in consecutive years. Recruited some ridiculous NBA talent. Once revived, Adidas sniffed the return of a sleeping giant and has forced some bad kids on him of late these past four seasons.

Even very good coaches can't overcome every obstacle in their path. I'd still say Howland has succeeded at UCLA. Then again, in today's society, memory is short and accomplishments are always attained with an asterisk so no surprise some feel he has failed.

How about some other examples I mentioned, like Billy Gillespie or Trent Johnson?
Given his success at UTEP and Texas A&M, and his pedigree as a longtime Bill Self guy, nobody thought he'd flop with greater resources and more talent at Kentucky. But he did flop, and flop spectacularly.
And Johnson, after having success at Nevada and Stanford, went to a bigger program with greater resources, a better tradition of success and a far better recruiting base (lots of talent in Louisiana and East Texas), but couldn't come close to replicating his success.
In no way am I suggesting Buzz wouldn't succeed at a place like Texas. Just that we don't know what would happen.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

How about some other examples I mentioned, like Billy Gillespie or Trent Johnson?
Given his success at UTEP and Texas A&M, and his pedigree as a longtime Bill Self guy, nobody thought he'd flop with greater resources and more talent at Kentucky. But he did flop, and flop spectacularly.
And Johnson, after having success at Nevada and Stanford, went to a bigger program with greater resources, a better tradition of success and a far better recruiting base (lots of talent in Louisiana and East Texas), but couldn't come close to replicating his success.
In no way am I suggesting Buzz wouldn't succeed at a place like Texas. Just that we don't know what would happen.

Right.

And, if you want to lower the bar down, look at guys like Mike Deane or Jerry Wainwright. I'm sure both DePaul and MU thought those coaches would be able to raise their own recruiting profile and success with a larger program, better market, and more money.

Didn't exactly happen that way.

Buzz Williams MIGHT be awesome at UT... but it's not a lock.

[Lennys Tap]

How about some other examples I mentioned, like Billy Gillespie or Trent Johnson?

Billy Gillespie had an alchohol problem that progressed until it did him in. Other than 1 year with the Lopez twins (28-8, Sweet 16), Johnson was a .500 coach at Nevada/Stanford (106-105). Given that resume, a 67-62 record at LSU shouldn't surprise anyone - he was just never that good.

[bilsu]

I think McDonald's Americans do have a different attitude and Buzz would have to adjust his coaching style to be successful with them. The more talent you have the faster it turns over (see Kentucky) and you keep starting over. It is the equivalent of breaking several thoroughbred race horses every year. By the time you get them trained they are moving on. Given Buzz's statement about freshmen not getting it, it would be hard to imagine Buzz wanting to coach a Kentucky type team every year. It just does not seem to fit his personality. From that standpoint it would not fit Bo Ryan's personality either.

[Tugg Speedman]

I think we are all missing something.  If Barnes gets canned this year because he struggled with a young team, then Texas is unstable.  Barnes successor will last only a few seasons before he struggles and gets canned.  It will be a revolving door.

Nova is correct to stick with Jay Wright.  UNC was correct to not can Roy two years ago after they finished 16-16.  Texas will stick with Barnes as it would hurt them long-term if they can him now.

[Pakuni]

Billy Gillespie had an alchohol problem that progressed until it did him in.

Or, maybe his struggles and the pressure at Kentucky led to and/or exacerbated his drinking problem.
I have no idea. Neither do you.

Other than 1 year with the Lopez twins (28-8, Sweet 16), Johnson was a .500 coach at Nevada/Stanford (106-105). Given that resume, a 67-62 record at LSU shouldn't surprise anyone - he was just never that good.

Johnson took over a Nevada program that had been to the tournament only twice ever, the last time 15 years before his arrival. From there, he built a program that made four straight tourneys and produced multiple NBA players (Snyder, Fazekas, Sessions, etc.). Again, this was a program with virtually no tradition to speak of before he arrived, and he made it one that made regular tournament appearances and recruited NBA talent.
But yeah .... not good.

And enough with the ridiculous claim that a coach's accomplishments should be minimized if he wins with talented players. A coach's most important job is to recruit talented players. Johnson should be lauded for getting the Lopez twins to Stanford when they could have gone to any basketball power they wanted. Dismissing a coach's success because he has good players is stupid and misses the point of what being a college basketball coach is all about.

If having a roster with NBA talent minimizes a coach's success, ought we not be making less a big deal about Buzz's two Sweet Sixteens? That first team, after all, had at least three future NBA players on its roster.  
I don't believe that we should do that, but your logic here and elsewhere (i.e. Crean w/out Wade) kinda dictates it.

[NersEllenson]

Right.

And, if you want to lower the bar down, look at guys like Mike Deane or Jerry Wainwright. I'm sure both DePaul and MU thought those coaches would be able to raise their own recruiting profile and success with a larger program, better market, and more money.

Didn't exactly happen that way.

Buzz Williams MIGHT be awesome at UT... but it's not a lock.

I'd bet on a guy who has accomplished 5 straight NCAA tournaments, and 2 consecutive Sweet 16's at MU to improve on that performance if he went to a Top 7 school in the country like UT.  I'd never bet a whole lot on a low major coach, moving up to high major ranks to automatically consider they would continue the same level of success.  It's a HUGE reach to think that.  Totally different ball game.  The competition for high major (Top 25 program recruits) is a hell of a lot stiffer, than it is recruiting for Siena, or UNC Wilmington or Richmond for that matter.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'd bet on a guy who has accomplished 5 straight NCAA tournaments, and 2 consecutive Sweet 16's at MU to improve on that performance if he went to a Top 7 school in the country like UT.  I'd never bet a whole lot on a low major coach, moving up to high major ranks to automatically consider they would continue the same level of success.  It's a HUGE reach to think that.  Totally different ball game.  The competition for high major (Top 25 program recruits) is a hell of a lot stiffer, than it is recruiting for Siena, or UNC Wilmington or Richmond for that matter.

That's right, it's different.

But, the idea that a coach will suddenly improve with a better school, athletic department, and more money is the same.

When Deane was hired, do you think Cords was hoping he would stay at the exact same level, or was MU betting with a promotion that Deane might even be better?

I don't say any of this as a knock on Buzz. I think he would be great at UT.

But, it's not without risk. Sometimes guys don't translate well for a variety of reasons.

[NersEllenson]

Or, maybe his struggles and the pressure at Kentucky led to and/or exacerbated his drinking problem.
I have no idea. Neither do you. Stop pretending otherwise.

Billy Clyde had an alcohol problem long prior to his arrival at UK...as someone who lives in Texas, and knows Texas, and knows a woman who dated Billy Clyde for awhile during his A&M days - Lenny is absolutely right, and you are absolutely wrong.  

Tech rolled the dice on Billy Clyde because he is a West Texan...think the pressure at Tech also unraveled Billy - or once again did Billy's demons unvravel him...as they did at UK?

[Pakuni]

I'd bet on a guy who has accomplished 5 straight NCAA tournaments, and 2 consecutive Sweet 16's at MU to improve on that performance if he went to a Top 7 school in the country like UT.  I'd never bet a whole lot on a low major coach, moving up to high major ranks to automatically consider they would continue the same level of success.  It's a HUGE reach to think that.  Totally different ball game.  The competition for high major (Top 25 program recruits) is a hell of a lot stiffer, than it is recruiting for Siena, or UNC Wilmington or Richmond for that matter.

Texas is not a top 7 school.
Texas has the same number of tournament appearances as Marquette, fewer Sweet Sixteens than Marquette, the same number of Final Fours as Marquette (and only one in the last 65 years) and fewer titles than Marquette.
Its size, resources and talent base make Texas a potentially better situation than MU, but they're far from the elite of college basketball.

Which of these four programs do you consider Texas better than:
Duke, North Carolina, Kansas, UCLA, Louisville, Kentucky, Indiana, Michigan State, Syracuse, Arizona.

And, FWIW, Wainwright came to DePaul from Richmond, which is not a low major program.

[Pakuni]

Billy Clyde had an alcohol problem long prior to his arrival at UK...as someone who lives in Texas, and knows Texas, and knows a woman who dated Billy Clyde for awhile during his A&M days - Lenny is absolutely right, and you are absolutely wrong.  

Tech rolled the dice on Billy Clyde because he is a West Texan...think the pressure at Tech also unraveled Billy - or once again did Billy's demons unvravel him...as they did at UK?

You're trying to have it both ways.
You can't say he was a terrible drunk in Texas while having great success, and then say being the same terrible drunk in Kentucky is the reason he flopped.

[NersEllenson]

You're trying to have it both ways.
You can't say he was a terrible drunk in Texas while having great success, and then say being the same terrible drunk in Kentucky is the reason he flopped.

Ever heard of a functional alcoholic? Ever heard of someone having an addiction and issue, who's issue becomes more and more serious, and eventually derails them?  It happens...sometimes a slow downward spiral, sometimes rapid, but always inevitable.