Without health insurance? What's the real number?

[ChicosBailBonds]

We've been told time and again that there are 44 million people without health insurance in this country for various reasons....can't afford it, don't want it, etc.   Well, some added information to the debate that you won't find from the MSM.





"However, here's probably what you don't here...most of the people without health insurance in this country aren't supposed to be in this country to begin with.  They are illegally here.

According to the latest Census Bureau figures, 43.6 percent of non-citizens in the U.S. are without health insurance. In addition, 33.6 percent of those born elsewhere are without coverage.

By contrast, only 13.4 percent of native-born Americans are without health insurance. And 17.9 percent of naturalized citizens are without coverage.

The statistics will be no surprise to health-care providers. Hospital emergency rooms in Florida and California have been forced to close their doors as a result of increased demands by uninsured and under-insured patients – many of them illegal aliens."


and here's another wonderful added element


"Certain diseases that we thought we had vanquished years ago are coming back, and other diseases that we've never seen or rarely seen in America, because they've always been the diseases of poverty and the Third World, are coming in now," she said.



Something to ponder int he debate that few bring up.

[harryp]

I don't have your private email, but wanted to say that I'm sorry to hear about your wife's problems.  I don't know much about Graves, but I was diagnosed with glaucoma over 10 years ago.  It is easily treatable and hasn't affected my vision.  Good luck -- hope you have a good insurance policy.

[mu_hilltopper]

(harryp, try "private messaging" .. just click the little balloon icon under whomever you wish to send to.)

.. That's some startling info, Chicos.  Did not know that.

FYI, the Wisconsin Senate has passed a budget that included roughly, universal health care for WI citizens.  It's currently a political ploy doomed for failure, but interesting nonetheless.

The whole debate is confounding to an extent.  The politics seem to break into two groups.

1. Those (~20%) who don't have health insurance would, of course, love this new benefit.  They get something for nothing (or cheap.)

2. For the ~80%  who already have health coverage .. what do we get?  Not much, really.  There are some benefits, no doubt, like guaranteed coverage (can't be dropped from plan) .. and the theory it's going to be "cheaper" (dubious).  It sure seems like the 80% get very little and are basically paying for the 20% to receive a new benefit.

With your snippet that many of the uninsured are illegals .. wow.

[Pakuni]

For starters, whoever wrote this piece isn't a math major. There are an estimated 11.5-12 million illegal immigrants in the United States, according to the Dept. of Homeland Security. (http://www.dhs.gov/xoig/assets/mgmtrpts/OIG_07-34_Mar07.pdf)

If that is correct, and the number of uninsured is correct, the writer's thesis that "most of the people without health insurance in this country aren't supposed to be in this country to begin with.  They are illegally here" obviously is false. Because, last I checked, 12 million is not more than half of 44 million.

And that, of course, assumes that every illegal immigrant is uninsured, something his own words later say is untrue.

Regardless, whether the correct number of uninsured is 44 million or 24 million or 12 million, it's clearly a problem the country needs to addressed.

And let's not forget the larger problem: even those who are insured cannot afford complete health care. More than half of all bankruptcies are created by medical issues, and three-fourths of those people had health insurance when they became ill. And who ends up paying for that? You and me, of course.

I tend to believe complete socialization of the health care system is not the answer, but we certainly need to come up with a system better than the one we've got.

p.s. Is your wife ill, Chico's? If so, my sincerest best wishes to you and your family.

[Pakuni]

2. For the ~80%  who already have health coverage .. what do we get?  Not much, really.  There are some benefits, no doubt, like guaranteed coverage (can't be dropped from plan) .. and the theory it's going to be "cheaper" (dubious).  It sure seems like the 80% get very little and are basically paying for the 20% to receive a new benefit.

With your snippet that many of the uninsured are illegals .. wow.

Quick point: We're already paying for the 20 percent. Just not entirely through taxes. We're paying in higher medical costs since doctors/hospitals have to make up what they expend on unsinsured by charging the insured more. We're paying as consumers because of the bakruptcies caused by medical bills. We pay as a society for all the collateral effects of an untreated illness (i.e. spread of disease, lost productivity, welfare, unemployment, etc.).

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't have your private email, but wanted to say that I'm sorry to hear about your wife's problems.  I don't know much about Graves, but I was diagnosed with glaucoma over 10 years ago.  It is easily treatable and hasn't affected my vision.  Good luck -- hope you have a good insurance policy.

Harry, I'll send you a private message via MUSCOOP with email address.  She's doing great, just recently diagnosed.  Graves effects the eyes (in addition to the heart, thyroid, etc) and there was concern that it led to the glaucoma.   But so far the laser treatments she has had have been working.  Not sure if she will have to be on drops long term, indefinitely, or whatever...just one of those things.  Overall we are blessed, there are people out there with true medical emergencies that are life threatening.

Getting older is so much fun.   

Hope your golf game is going well and the real estate market in Arizona remains solid!

[ChicosBailBonds]

2. For the ~80%  who already have health coverage .. what do we get?  Not much, really.  There are some benefits, no doubt, like guaranteed coverage (can't be dropped from plan) .. and the theory it's going to be "cheaper" (dubious).  It sure seems like the 80% get very little and are basically paying for the 20% to receive a new benefit.

With your snippet that many of the uninsured are illegals .. wow.

Quick point: We're already paying for the 20 percent. Just not entirely through taxes. We're paying in higher medical costs since doctors/hospitals have to make up what they expend on unsinsured by charging the insured more. We're paying as consumers because of the bakruptcies caused by medical bills. We pay as a society for all the collateral effects of an untreated illness (i.e. spread of disease, lost productivity, welfare, unemployment, etc.).

Good points Pakuni.  I would only add what no one is talking about, when healthcare is "free" will people be going to the doctor for everything?  Will they overload the system?  Right now people often avoid the doctor for minor things because they don't want to pay for those minor things.


"If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free."-PJ O'Rourke

[ChicosBailBonds]

For starters, whoever wrote this piece isn't a math major. There are an estimated 11.5-12 million illegal immigrants in the United States, according to the Dept. of Homeland Security. (http://www.dhs.gov/xoig/assets/mgmtrpts/OIG_07-34_Mar07.pdf)

If that is correct, and the number of uninsured is correct, the writer's thesis that "most of the people without health insurance in this country aren't supposed to be in this country to begin with.  They are illegally here" obviously is false. Because, last I checked, 12 million is not more than half of 44 million.

And that, of course, assumes that every illegal immigrant is uninsured, something his own words later say is untrue.

Regardless, whether the correct number of uninsured is 44 million or 24 million or 12 million, it's clearly a problem the country needs to addressed.

And let's not forget the larger problem: even those who are insured cannot afford complete health care. More than half of all bankruptcies are created by medical issues, and three-fourths of those people had health insurance when they became ill. And who ends up paying for that? You and me, of course.

I tend to believe complete socialization of the health care system is not the answer, but we certainly need to come up with a system better than the one we've got.

p.s. Is your wife ill, Chico's? If so, my sincerest best wishes to you and your family.

On the math, I think it's a subtlety in the reading.  No one knows for sure how many illegals there are in this country, she (the author) was using census bureau data to make her point.

It is a huge issue, no doubt in this country but so much of this is intertwined with other bigger issues like the immigration debate.  We have laws on the books that we don't enforce, I'd like to see us start there.

[Pakuni]

Good points Pakuni.  I would only add what no one is talking about, when healthcare is "free" will people be going to the doctor for everything?  Will they overload the system?  Right now people often avoid the doctor for minor things because they don't want to pay for those minor things.


"If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free."-PJ O'Rourke

That's a fair point, but you also have to ask whether people, by not seeking medical care for minor things, open themselves up to more serious, and more costly, health problems in the future.
This, I believe, is why "wellness" has become such a buzz word in the health-care industry. Medical providers and insurers have come to the realization that in the big picture it's better to spend a little upfront to keep a person healthy than it is to let those minor problems fester and develop into costly problems.

On the immigration issue, I'm probably more with you than you think. Securing the borders should come first, then we can talk about what to do with the illegals already here. Speaking from a pragmatic and economical standpoint, deporting 11-12 million people probably is not a practical solution. There would be a whole lot of unkempt lawns, messy restaurant tables and unsupervised children in your neck of the woods if that were to happen.

BTW, PJ is one of my favorite non-fiction authors.

[tower912]

So, it is 2 in the morning on a typical Friday night/Saturday morning at work for me.   I get a call to a house where this person is vomiting blood.  "How long has your stomach been hurting?"  'About a month'.   "What is the difference tonight?"  'Dude, can't you see I am vomiting blood'?  "How long have you been vomiting blood?"  'All night.'  (Unspoken is the question 'why the hell did you wait until 2 a.m. to wake me up?'   That would be un professional)  "OK, what hospital do you want to go to?"  'I can't man, I haven't got any insurance.'  "Well if you are puking blood, you need to get checked out.   This could kill you."    Then they blame me.   If I had a dollar for every time I have had some variation of this conversation, I could take this whole board out for drinks.   Just something to cogitate on.  I don't know what the answer is either.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

So, it is 2 in the morning on a typical Friday night/Saturday morning at work for me.   I get a call to a house where this person is vomiting blood.  "How long has your stomach been hurting?"  'About a month'.   "What is the difference tonight?"  'Dude, can't you see I am vomiting blood'?  "How long have you been vomiting blood?"  'All night.'  (Unspoken is the question 'why the hell did you wait until 2 a.m. to wake me up?'   That would be un professional)  "OK, what hospital do you want to go to?"  'I can't man, I haven't got any insurance.'  "Well if you are puking blood, you need to get checked out.   This could kill you."    Then they blame me.   If I had a dollar for every time I have had some variation of this conversation, I could take this whole board out for drinks.   Just something to cogitate on.  I don't know what the answer is either.

tower, at least they are vomiting blood and not overdosing on pot.  (Was that video on here or did I see that elsewhere?  The dude that called 911, "ODing" on pot and worried about the redwings score.)

[tower912]

Before I do anything more, Chico, best of luck to you and your wife. Hang in there.

911 Calls I have been on:   Bat in house, cat in tree, cat in vents, swollen breasts, people attempting suicide by taking too many tylenol, people engaged in active sex and severely bending a penis,  during a power outage, a reqest to hook up the generator from my pumper to a machine that a civilian needs turned on for his sleep apnea because he wants a nap, a drunk girl on her birthday who thought I was a stripper (she would have to be extraordinarily drunk to confuse me with a stripper), a car accident that caused a woman's wonderbra to pop, leaving an unidentified fluid over the car and her and us to embarrassed to ask her directly, multiple cross dressers who get offended if you guess their gender wrong OR right, the cat that caused a house fire by peeing on an electrical outlet....   You all get the idea.    An amazing world we live in, full of fascinating people who do really dumb things.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Tower...thanks...again, she's fine.  I shouldn't have brought it up, but I did when asked about why people don't just go over to Iraq, etc.  She's a strong lady and will outlive me by 20 years.





Another article on this topic, different twist but some interesting counterpoints.


Looks like both sides are in high media mode right now.


http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2007/20070718153509.aspx



This quote stood out for me....

“The number of Americans with no health insurance is continuing to grow as more and more employers say they can’t afford to offer group insurance … People who try to buy insurance on their own often find the price beyond their reach,” said Couric as she introduced a two-part “investigation of the health insurance industry.”

     But according to the same Census report, there are 8.3 million uninsured people who make between $50,000 and $74,999 per year and 8.74 million who make more than $75,000 a year. That’s roughly 17 million people who ought to be able to “afford” health insurance because they make substantially more than the median household income of $46,326."

[mviale]

chicos - didnt mean to offend when I asked you to enlist in Iraq.

Hope all is well

[ChicosBailBonds]

So, it is 2 in the morning on a typical Friday night/Saturday morning at work for me.   I get a call to a house where this person is vomiting blood.  "How long has your stomach been hurting?"  'About a month'.   "What is the difference tonight?"  'Dude, can't you see I am vomiting blood'?  "How long have you been vomiting blood?"  'All night.'  (Unspoken is the question 'why the hell did you wait until 2 a.m. to wake me up?'   That would be un professional)  "OK, what hospital do you want to go to?"  'I can't man, I haven't got any insurance.'  "Well if you are puking blood, you need to get checked out.   This could kill you."    Then they blame me.   If I had a dollar for every time I have had some variation of this conversation, I could take this whole board out for drinks.   Just something to cogitate on.  I don't know what the answer is either.

I guess I don't understand the conversation, by law they have to take this person and treat them, with insurance or not.  No person in this country is denied emergency healthcare.

[ChicosBailBonds]

chicos - didnt mean to offend when I asked you to enlist in Iraq.

Hope all is well

You didn't offend me.  Hey, I like this board because people are damn passionate about things...I wish more people were passionate about their country, their government, etc.  You didn't offend me at all mviale.  Your Philly Eagles offend me, but not you.   

[mviale]

agree - like the debate and lets me hear the other side

[tower912]

Chico, you are correct in that no one who needs care can legally be turned away.   Out by you, though, didn't a woman just die because she had been rejected from the Emergency Room?    But that is beside the point.   Many of the impovershed underclass fear the hospital, fear the bills that will come if they go get treated since they have no insurance.   People are so terrified of the huge bills that they will take their chances by not going in, thereby making their problem worse.    I am not making a judgment, simply telling what I see on a regular basis.   

[mu_hilltopper]

tower, if you could just smother them from now on, that'd be a help.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chico, you are correct in that no one who needs care can legally be turned away.   Out by you, though, didn't a woman just die because she had been rejected from the Emergency Room?    But that is beside the point.   Many of the impovershed underclass fear the hospital, fear the bills that will come if they go get treated since they have no insurance.   People are so terrified of the huge bills that they will take their chances by not going in, thereby making their problem worse.    I am not making a judgment, simply telling what I see on a regular basis.   

Yes, she did die and ironically it was at Martin Luther King hospital in the inner city.  The hospital is just a nightmare and there are calls to completely shut it down.  The local paper here did an analysis on King-Harbor hospital in 2004 which painted it in a horrible light and now the latest incident.

It is likely to be shutdown due to gross incompetence there.  Had nothing to do with her insurance situation, the people running the show there were bad bad news.

http://cbs2.com/topstories/local_story_198180044.html

[tower912]

Hilltopper, the urge is strong.  Also, for those of you who remember the movie "Airplane", there is a strong urge to treat some people like the hysterical passenger.    But, alas, this too would be unprofessional.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Hilltopper, the urge is strong.  Also, for those of you who remember the movie "Airplane", there is a strong urge to treat some people like the hysterical passenger.    But, alas, this too would be unprofessional.

Do you believe that if we go to a universal "socialized medicine" approach, the quality of care will improve, stay the same, or decline?

[tower912]

This is one of those issues that I can argue equally passionately either side of the issue depending on my mood.   There are many potential benefits from a single payer systerm.   There are as many persuasive arguments against it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is one of those issues that I can argue equally passionately either side of the issue depending on my mood.   There are many potential benefits from a single payer systerm.   There are as many persuasive arguments against it.

I'd agree, but my worry is that we all know once the government gets a hold of it that it stays forever.  There is no turning back.

[tower912]

Chico, if I were designing a government and a health care system from the ground up, I would have a single payer system that would provide ample incentives for innovations and efficiencies and equal punishments for sub-par providers.   And this would put us on a par with the other 24 out of the top 25 industrial nations in the world that provide some form of universal coverage.    However, as our system is set up now, I can see no way to take our system to a true single payer system without radically impacting the economy through both the taxes that would be necessary and the impact on the existing insurance/pharmaceutical companies as well as the medical institutions.   So, as I said, I can argue either side of this issue depending on time of day and mood.