Otule and Gardner's potential together

[trebby123]

http://espnmilwaukee.com/common/more.php?m=49&r=51&post_id=14051

It's going to be tough for either one to really take the position and make it just their's. If one were to do it, which would it be? I may say Otule, just because I don't know how much potential Davante's build has on the defensive end. Plus, I believe Otule to be a capable offensive player, mainly because of his size.

[GGGG]

I don't think either needs to take the position and make it theirs.  IMO it depends on the opposition and the situation who is going to play more.  My guess is that Otule starts...Gardner comes in for offensive reasons...and that he will get the majority minutes most of the time.  But not always.

[trebby123]

I don't think either needs to take the position and make it theirs.  IMO it depends on the opposition and the situation who is going to play more.  My guess is that Otule starts...Gardner comes in for offensive reasons...and that he will get the majority minutes most of the time.  But not always.

Completely agree. Just something I was thinking about. Pretty much, Otule has more potential to become better all-around big man.

Both will play at least 15 minutes a game, and whichever plays more will depend on the situation and how many guys are hot on offense.

[Silkk the Shaka]

I love Otule, and I think he should start just for the tip alone plus a general preference for bringing offense off the bench.  There is no doubt the team is better with both healthy.  HOWEVER, Davante EASILY has more upside.  He could average 16/8 or better his senior year on a normal development curve and 30+ mpg.  Additionally, he has clearly put a lot of work into his conditioning, and before the knee injury last year was hedging out on help defense very adeptly.  The only thing Otule has on Davante at this point is a slight edge in athleticism, an edge in height/length (nothing Davante can do there), and a natural nose for shot blocking/altering & defensive positioning.  Everything else (interior scoring, FT shooting, passing) Davante is much better at than Otule.  Which is no slight to Chris, as Gardner will be one of the best offensive centers in the Big East this year and potentially THE best next year.

[brewcity77]

I love Otule, and I think he should start just for the tip alone plus a general preference for bringing offense off the bench.  There is no doubt the team is better with both healthy.  HOWEVER, Davante EASILY has more upside.  He could average 16/8 or better his senior year on a normal development curve and 30+ mpg.  Additionally, he has clearly put a lot of work into his conditioning, and before the knee injury last year was hedging out on help defense very adeptly.  The only thing Otule has on Davante at this point is a slight edge in athleticism, an edge in height/length (nothing Davante can do there), and a natural nose for shot blocking/altering & defensive positioning.  Everything else (interior scoring, FT shooting, passing) Davante is much better at than Otule.  Which is no slight to Chris, as Gardner will be one of the best offensive centers in the Big East entire nation this year and potentially THE best next year.

FIFY

But I agree. I was very impressed with Gardner's physique at Haunted Hoops. They still list him at 290, but if he's really 290, he's transformed a ton of fat into muscle. I would guess he's closer to 265. He looks really good. Otule will likely always be the better defender, better on the tip, and the guy that we want to set the tone with. But Gardner has a near-supernatural gift for putting the ball in the hoop. He seems to simply know when and where to throw the ball, whether he's looking or not. And at HH, he pulled off a spin move on a pass from Junior that he never could have done in the past.

I still think Otule should start and would like to see about a CO 18 / DG 22 mpg mix. That keeps both guys fresh, lets both play to their strengths, and gives us one of the best 1-2 center punches in the league. There are more complete guys, but I don't think anyone in the Big East has two that are better.

[tower912]

Chris is never going to be an offensive force because he simply can't catch a hard pass from a short distance away or get an offensive rebound that has rapidly changed direction near him.   He has compensated wonderfully for his bad eye, but those are things he is never going to be able to do.   DG is never going to win an opening tip.   And so far, he does not guard ball-screens well.   Otule was able to tie up his man on the defensive boards and enable teammates to get boards that he couldn't.   DG doesn't defensive rebound outside of his area.     Together, they are a really good 5.     As I've said before and Brew said in this thread, start Otule but give DG more minutes overall. 

[Goose]

I think by midseason Taylor will be taking minutes from CO. I like CO but think Taylor has chance to be really good.

[Silkk the Shaka]

FIFY

But I agree. I was very impressed with Gardner's physique at Haunted Hoops. They still list him at 290, but if he's really 290, he's transformed a ton of fat into muscle. I would guess he's closer to 265. He looks really good. Otule will likely always be the better defender, better on the tip, and the guy that we want to set the tone with. But Gardner has a near-supernatural gift for putting the ball in the hoop. He seems to simply know when and where to throw the ball, whether he's looking or not. And at HH, he pulled off a spin move on a pass from Junior that he never could have done in the past.

I still think Otule should start and would like to see about a CO 18 / DG 22 mpg mix. That keeps both guys fresh, lets both play to their strengths, and gives us one of the best 1-2 center punches in the league. There are more complete guys, but I don't think anyone in the Big East has two that are better.

I totally agree that Davante will be one of the best offensive centers in all of college basketball next year, and that we have a very enviable 1-2 combo patrolling the paint.

I think in general it should be CO 12-18 mpg & Davante 22-28 mpg, but the way I'd play it is if Davante is EVER on a roll, you leave him in until he's winded.  When he's clicking it will not only replace a ton of DJO & Jae's scoring load, but it will open things up for everyone else on the floor.  For this reason I think we'll see him log more than a couple 30+ minute games, whereas I find it hard to see Otule doing the same.

[trebby123]

I tend to agree with you guys. Their playing time will vary by the game, and Gardner will likely play more minutes than Otule in more games than the other way around.

Any chance they actually play together? Davante said it was a possibility at Media Day, but would it work?

[GGGG]

Gardner is a shorter, heavier version of Carlos Boozer...without his face-the-basket mid-range game.  A below the basket player whose skills translated better to an earlier era of NBA basketball.  However that doesn't mean that he cannot be effective at this level however.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Chris is never going to be an offensive force because he simply can't catch a hard pass from a short distance away or get an offensive rebound that has rapidly changed direction near him.   He has compensated wonderfully for his bad eye, but those are things he is never going to be able to do.   DG is never going to win an opening tip.   And so far, he does not guard ball-screens well.   Otule was able to tie up his man on the defensive boards and enable teammates to get boards that he couldn't.   DG doesn't defensive rebound outside of his area.     Together, they are a really good 5.     As I've said before and Brew said in this thread, start Otule but give DG more minutes overall. 

It's a shame Otule only has one eye which affects his ability to catch the short pass or judge the offensive rebound like you say.  I think he'd be at least a borderline NBA pick otherwise, because he does have fairly soft hands and good footwork/positioning and overall feel for the post, not to mention near-ideal size.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

FIFY

But I agree. I was very impressed with Gardner's physique at Haunted Hoops. They still list him at 290, but if he's really 290, he's transformed a ton of fat into muscle. I would guess he's closer to 265. He looks really good. Otule will likely always be the better defender, better on the tip, and the guy that we want to set the tone with. B

I thought he looked good at the scrimmage as well, but I think we have to see him in the regular (tighter) uniforms before I can say that he's 265. I have a feeling he's still in the 280+ range... not that it really matters.

Not many people can guard him on offense, and he can't guard many people on defense. He's like a bigger version of Glen Robinson.

He'll score 22, but he's going to give up 20+.

He and Otule are an excellent compliment, and provided they both know that, they could be a very good combo.

[MerrittsMustache]

Gardner is a shorter, heavier version of Carlos Boozer...without his face-the-basket mid-range game.  A below the basket player whose skills translated better to an earlier era of NBA basketball.  However that doesn't mean that he cannot be effective at this level however.

Aka a poor man's DeJuan Blair.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Because the top big men typically go lottery after freshmen year, a player like Sheesh who knows how to use his body and has steel traps for hands, can dominate in the paint.  I expect a huge year now that his conditioning has taken hold.

[NersEllenson]

Chris may want to re-phrase his assessment of the practice dynamics between he and DG:

"There's competition in practice every day," Otule said. "If you ask anybody on the team what me and Davante do every day, they'll tell you we just bang each other.

On a serious note - great to have 2 good complementary bigs on the roster.  Gardner, in my opinion, will be a DeJaun Blair type by his senior year...no poor man's version. 

[StillWarriors]

Chris may want to re-phrase his assessment of the practice dynamics between he and DG:

"There's competition in practice every day," Otule said. "If you ask anybody on the team what me and Davante do every day, they'll tell you we just bang each other.

On a serious note - great to have 2 good complementary bigs on the roster.  Gardner, in my opinion, will be a DeJaun Blair type by his senior year...no poor man's version. 

Hilarious.

[BubbaWilliams]

I wonder if Embiid will be able to see how 2 solid 5s play in our system during his visit. I think this could be a plus for his recruitment.

[T-Bone]

On a serious note - great to have 2 good complementary bigs on the roster.  Gardner, in my opinion, will be a DeJaun Blair type by his senior year...no poor man's version. 

That sounds about right.  Same size bodies.  I think Davante might be a little better his Senior year vs Blair's Sophmore year.

The numbers are pretty favorable for seeing Gardner's progression (comparing Blair's Fr w/Ox's Soph).  http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=dejuan-blair&dejuan-blair=2007-2008&i=1&p1=davante-gardner

[trebby123]

That sounds about right.  Same size bodies.  I think Davante might be a little better his Senior year vs Blair's Sophmore year.

The numbers are pretty favorable for seeing Gardner's progression (comparing Blair's Fr w/Ox's Soph).  http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=dejuan-blair&dejuan-blair=2007-2008&i=1&p1=davante-gardner

I don't seem to remember Blair being as efficient as Gardner offensively. While the numbers are similar, I feel like Blair was a different type of player.

[strotty]

I don't seem to remember Blair being as efficient as Gardner offensively. While the numbers are similar, I feel like Blair was a different type of player.

He was. His sophomore year Blair had a EFG of 59.3%. His offensive win shares was 3.5.
Gardner last year had an EFG of 56.1 percent.

The big difference here is that Blair was more athletic than Gardner is right now, and probably will ever be. That's not a knock on Gardner, but more props to how good Blair actually was. The similarities between the two really begin and end with them both being scrappy under the basket. Blair was an outstanding defender and a lot more versatile because of his athleticism. I could see Gardner being a top forward in the Big East this year and next, but not like Blair was.

[mu03eng]

I think Sheesh has the edge between the two because like someone said he could average 16 and 8 but also add in that he'd probably have 5-6 assists on that stat line as well.  Sheesh has a natural passing ability that allows the offense to flow.  Plus with the new conditioning, he should be able to put more effort into defense because I think the last two years he was resting on defense and saving it for the offensive end.  CO will still dominate him defensively but I don't think the drop off will be as bad

I love that we this "problem" picking between the two, but I think given the guards and their defensive capabilities plus CO's limits on the offensive end, I think we see a 20/24 split CO to Sheesh.  Yes, I know that's more than 40 minutes at center but I think there will be some times when they both play together.

[GGGG]

He was. His sophomore year Blair had a EFG of 59.3%. His offensive win shares was 3.5.
Gardner last year had an EFG of 56.1 percent.

The big difference here is that Blair was more athletic than Gardner is right now, and probably will ever be. That's not a knock on Gardner, but more props to how good Blair actually was. The similarities between the two really begin and end with them both being scrappy under the basket. Blair was an outstanding defender and a lot more versatile because of his athleticism. I could see Gardner being a top forward in the Big East this year and next, but not like Blair was.

Blair is more athletic than Gardner, but I don't think he is all that "athletic"...at least in an NBA sense of the word.  A below the basket player for sure.

[tower912]

I just do not see CO and DG on the floor together regularly.    Can't really go hi-lo, because both work better down low.    Defensively, the only way they can play together is in a zone.   I'm not saying it will NEVER happen, because I am sure there will be situations where it will work for a minute or two.   I just don't see it as being a staple. 

[Silkk the Shaka]

I think Sheesh has the edge between the two because like someone said he could average 16 and 8 but also add in that he'd probably have 5-6 assists on that stat line as well.  Sheesh has a natural passing ability that allows the offense to flow.  Plus with the new conditioning, he should be able to put more effort into defense because I think the last two years he was resting on defense and saving it for the offensive end.  CO will still dominate him defensively but I don't think the drop off will be as bad

I love that we this "problem" picking between the two, but I think given the guards and their defensive capabilities plus CO's limits on the offensive end, I think we see a 20/24 split CO to Sheesh.  Yes, I know that's more than 40 minutes at center but I think there will be some times when they both play together.

Travis Diener Averaged 5.5, 6.0, and 7.0 assists in 34+ mpg starting at PG.
Dominic James averaged 5.0, 4.4, 4.9, and 5.4 assists in 30+ mpg starting at PG.

Davante is a great interior passer, but no way does he come close to 5-6 assists per game.  3 would be absolutely outstanding for him.

[mu03eng]

Travis Diener Averaged 5.5, 6.0, and 7.0 assists in 34+ mpg starting at PG.
Dominic James averaged 5.0, 4.4, 4.9, and 5.4 assists in 30+ mpg starting at PG.

Davante is a great interior passer, but no way does he come close to 5-6 assists per game.  3 would be absolutely outstanding for him.

Both of those guys(DJ more so than Diener) were score first PGs plus Diener never played with the talent Gardner will.  I may have gone a touch overboard, but I think next year, with Junior gone, DG will be the focal point of the offense and will be the lead distributor.