Replacement Refs

[Tugg Speedman]

They are not as good as the regular refs, but are the announcers overdoing it with how bad they are?

When the regular refs blows a call, and they do all the time, they always tells us it's because the player is a cagey veteran and knew how to get away with it.  When a replacement ref blows a call, they have nothing but disdain for a guy that is over his head.

When the regular refs gets overturned by video replay, they are professionals that want to get it right above all else.  When a replacement ref gets overturned by video replay, he is incompetent for making the wrong call in the first place.

Again they are not as good, by is all the bellyaching about how bad the replacement refs are over the top? 

Am I off-base for thinking this?

[damuts222]

Yes how many times did John Fox have to throw the red flag just to get something that was obvious overturned. He ran out of red flags in the first half. Plus a common thene this week more than last is the amount of skirmishes. I think this is to blame on how many conferences the refs have on the field to make the right decision. They have no control and the lack of respect shown by the coaches and players towards the refs displays that.

[GGGG]

They aren't very good.  In one game they are calling everything...in the next they are completely swallowing their whistles.  However, they are passable enough for the NFL to put the screws to the refs union.  The real refs are never going to make up what they are going to lose here.

[hairy worthen]

They aren't very good.  In one game they are calling everything...in the next they are completely swallowing their whistles.  However, they are passable enough for the NFL to put the screws to the refs union.  The real refs are never going to make up what they are going to lose here.

The regular refs are the same way.  The calls themselves are fine not perfect but neither were the regular refs, it is the game mangement that sucks. Too long to spot the ball, too long on replays, too long deciding on the calls. It breaks the flow of the game. As they get more experience, they will get better and better. Everybody is replaceable, the MLB umps found that out the hard way a couple of decades ago or so.

[mu03eng]

The regular refs are the same way.  The calls themselves are fine not perfect but neither were the regular refs, it is the game mangement that sucks. Too long to spot the ball, too long on replays, too long deciding on the calls. It breaks the flow of the game. As they get more experience, they will get better and better. Everybody is replaceable, the MLB umps found that out the hard way a couple of decades ago or so.

This is correct, for the most part the calls have been within the "average" calls of the previous refs, but everything takes far too long and almost all offenses these days are predicated on some form of hurry up. 

Last night Atlanta had Denver on their heels, but the officials couldn't spot the ball right, almost started the clock, had the sideline official call them over to correct them, talked about it for 2 minutes, then respotted the ball, offered no explanation and then final restarted the game.

Also, the players are already starting to manipulate the crap out of the officials which will only get worse unless the officials get a backbone.

I agree they will get better with time, but it won't be this season and perception is reality for this issue....public thinks the replacement refs suck, all it takes is one major flub that costs a team a game, especially in a tight playoff race and the leverage is back in the union's hands

[Benny B]

I started officiating amateur hockey over 20 years ago, and I make no secret that coaches can sometimes affect the effectiveness of the officials on the ice.  I've worked the lines in Midget AAA (the highest level for HS-aged players) with much more experienced referees than me - very competent guys, some with a decade or two at the NCAA and semi-pro levels - get shaken by the occasional loudmouth peewee coach just enough to throw them off their game momentarily and make a bad call.  Even the thickest of skin can't stand up to some coaches out there, and the NFL coaches are laying it on thick right now; regardless of whether you're dealing with a different set of rules than you're used to or you're in stadiums with 10x the capacity of any crowd you've ever seen at the D-II level, when you're trying to keep track of 22 men on the field and you have a loudmouth like Jim Harbaugh yelling in your ear the entire game, you're going to lose concentration at least once or twice - no matter if you're a replacement official or Ed Hochuli - and when you do, boom... guess which clip is going to be shown on Sportscenter (hint: it's not the 100 calls you got right).  The difference is that Hochuli is respected enough that his mistakes are chalked up as mistakes... not travesties against society that need to be put on a traveling sports talk exhibit.

The replacement officials aren't bad, and they're not good... they're merely serviceable.  But the media, players and coaches are making them look worse than they actually are.

[real chili 83]

They aren't very good.  In one game they are calling everything...in the next they are completely swallowing their whistles.  However, they are passable enough for the NFL to put the screws to the refs union.  The real refs are never going to make up what they are going to lose here.

As each game goes by, these replacement refs are going to improve too.  The difference will be less and less as each week goes by.

[GGGG]

And as Steve Young pointed out today, it isn't going to matter cause we will all continue to watch.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Just wait until the lockout is settled and the 'regular' refs mess up because they got rusty, you always saw then needing the preseason to get their sh!t together, what if that happens in week 15 etc.?

[Benny B]

And as Steve Young pointed out today, it isn't going to matter cause we will all continue to watch.

Perhaps that's what the NFL wants... no drop in viewership, but the potential for additional eyeballs tuning in to more games just to see which official screws up next (we call that the "Howard Stern effect").

[DegenerateDish]

They're not good. Serviceable? Ok. Good? Not even close.

It's a joke what is going on, that game last night was awful. The players don't have to like refs (real or replacement), but they have to respect them. There is zero respect for the replacement reps. It's just a matter of time before an all out brawl takes place.

If you don't notice it, you should be, but every game, multiple times a game, the replacement head official will go confer with the league official that is on the field (guy wearing a neon green vest or hat, stands next to the TV coordinator on the sideline at each game). The league official is not a replacement ref either, he's a league employee.

The presentation of the game is terrible, they confuse college rules with NFL, don't always give player numbers on penalties, their spots are generally off. Not that regular refs are perfect, but there is a consistency of presentation there, and it's clearly lacking.

[marquette09]

With all of these Division II refs in the NFL, imagine how bad the "replacement" Division II refs must be......

Also, refs in the New England game had some serious issues tonight.   Bring back Ed Hochuli!!!!

[Tugg Speedman]

The presentation of the game is terrible, they confuse college rules with NFL, don't always give player numbers on penalties, their spots are generally off. Not that regular refs are perfect, but there is a consistency of presentation there, and it's clearly lacking.

Yes they are not as good as the regular refs.  But when regular refs makes these mistakes, and they do, the announcers do not jump all over them like they do the regular refs.

[damuts222]

Yes they are not as good as the regular refs.  But when regular refs makes these mistakes, and they do, the announcers do not jump all over them like they do the regular refs.

The fact is that I notice the refs during the game. I watched football all of yesterday and the replacement refs continue to not make a call on the field and then review the replay for 5 minutes before making the correct call. The league is behind that because there afraid that coaches will run out of challenges in the first quarter, see the Atlanta v. Denver game for example.

The replacement refs are exactly that replacements, hopefully temporary ones at that. IF the normal referees are back this season there will be a dramatic difference in the flow of the game. However, I am jumping on the NFL rather than the replacements for creating this issue.

[GGGG]

Frankly, after watching yesterday, if anyone continues to think that the only difference is that the regular refs just don't get the same level of scrutiny as the replacements, then they obviously don't really know football all that well.

Last night's game was a debacle.  Throwing flags on defensive holding and illegal contact on one play where little exists...then keeping it in the pocket when they are draped all over the receiver.  No consistency in the calling.  The unsportsmanlike conduct on Harbaugh was a joke. 

[real chili 83]

Watching the Vikes yesterday was tough after the refs gave SF an extra time out.  Good news is that they got two fumble calls correct after reviewing the calls.

[MU B2002]

  The unsportsmanlike conduct on Harbaugh was a joke. 

I know that Harbaugh played it off like he was trying to call time out after they threw the flag, but that is BS.  If you read his lips he was saying something to the effect of, "I need you to come here, I need to talk to you." Then he said it again and kept chirping, and then when they threw the flag his tune changed to "I was trying to call time out." 

The official was obviously looking at him, he could have signaled for time from the beginning. 

[GGGG]

I know that Harbaugh played it off like he was trying to call time out after they threw the flag, but that is BS.  If you read his lips he was saying something to the effect of, "I need you to come here, I need to talk to you." Then he said it again and kept chirping, and then when they threw the flag his tune changed to "I was trying to call time out." 

The official was obviously looking at him, he could have signaled for time from the beginning. 

That's not when the flag was thrown.  It was thrown before then.  He wanted to talk with them to explain that he ran onto the field to call a timeout.

BTW, apparently there were two issues at the end of games where the referee marked off the wrong yardage.  One where they gave Tennessee 12 extra yards in overtime...and one where they took away five yards from Washington just before their hail mary.  This is after they flagged Kyle Shannahan for unsportsmanlike conduct after he corrected the officials who were going to end the game with a 10 second run-off at a time when there was a dead ball.  Even I knew that wasn't right.

It is getting very bad...worse by the week.  I thought after week one that it was OK...after week two that it was "serviceable"....but now it has gotten to be at a joke level.  Absurdly bad.

[Tugg Speedman]

I agree the flow of the game is definitely slower with the replacements and that is annoying.

Here is what I wrote in the first thread.  Why is this wrong?

When the regular refs blows a call, and they do all the time, they always tells us it's because the player is a cagey veteran and knew how to get away with it.  When a replacement ref blows a call, they have nothing but disdain for a guy that is over his head.

When the regular refs gets overturned by video replay, they are professionals that want to get it right above all else.  When a replacement ref gets overturned by video replay, he is incompetent for making the wrong call in the first place.


We notice them because of the flow being slower and because they are replacements so we concentrate on them. 

Again, I'm not trying to say thy are as good as the regular refs.  They are not.  But I contend we are overdoing how bad they are. 

And give most of them two or three years experience and they would be as good as the regular refs.

[Hards Alumni]

They are bad.  The NFL needs to just pay their refs.  They make billions of dollars, and won't pay their refs.

There is egg all over Roger Goodell's face.

[Benny B]

Frankly, after watching yesterday, if anyone continues to think that the only difference is that the regular refs just don't get the same level of scrutiny as the replacements, then they obviously don't really know football all that well.

Last night's game was a debacle.  Throwing flags on defensive holding and illegal contact on one play where little exists...then keeping it in the pocket when they are draped all over the receiver.  No consistency in the calling.  The unsportsmanlike conduct on Harbaugh was a joke. 

I don't know what games you were watching, but I watched about one quarter of the Bears game, two quarters of the Broncos/Texans, and two quarters of the Pats/Ravens.  I didn't see a single call by an official that dictated the outcome of any of those games.

The replacement officials are going to make mistakes, granted.  But to come to the conclusion that they're getting worse by the week ignores a complementary, but significant, issue --- the players aren't getting better either.  At the risk of going Yogi, when the players are more consistent in their play, the officials will be more consistent.  To place 100% of the blame on the officials is way off base when you consider that the players are being more aggressive, making more contact, and generally committing more "penalty-worthy" action by the week (see yesterday's "de-lobing" of Matt Schaub)... the players - especially the defenses - are like 4 year olds who are testing their boundaries.  As I said earlier, there's no respect for these officials by the players, coaches or media, and that being the case, the players are going to continually and increasingly see what they can get away with.

Further, expecting an official or officiating team to be "consistent" is futile.  What you want them to be is "balanced," i.e. not favoring one team over the other.  In basketball the gray area that exists between a no-call and a foul expands and contracts depending on the game situation (ticky-tack fouls typically aren't called on a team down by 20 points with a minute to play), but inherently seeks to preserve balance.  The same concept exists in football, to a much greater degree given that very few calls in football are objective determinations.  Apparently, even the easiest, most objective call in the entire game - the 12-man penalty - is now delving into the realm of subjectivity (according to some Bears fans).

If you don't like the replacement officials, the solution is quite simple -- stop watching football.  Otherwise, quit complaining, because the NFL doesn't care what you think as long as you continue to watch the games.

[GGGG]

I don't know what games you were watching, but I watched about one quarter of the Bears game, two quarters of the Broncos/Texans, and two quarters of the Pats/Ravens.  I didn't see a single call by an official that dictated the outcome of any of those games.

So you watched five quarters of football and didn't see a call that "dictated the outcome of a game."  Congratulations!

I never said that a call dictated the outcome of a game.  However, when you give one team a 12 yard advantage in overtime, that comes pretty darn close.  When you take away 5 yards from a team in a hail mary situation...20 if you include the lame penalty...that puts a team at a disadvantage.  (I mention both of those above.)

You mention the Pats / Ravens game.  Did you notice that DBs were bumping and grabbing pretty much all game...except when they apparently weren't when they decided to throw a flag.  I'm sorry but if you can't see that this is a problem, you clearly don't know enough about football.

If you don't like the replacement officials, the solution is quite simple -- stop watching football.  Otherwise, quit complaining, because the NFL doesn't care what you think as long as you continue to watch the games.

I'm going to watch and I'm going to complain.  If you don't want to read my complaining...don't.

[4everwarriors]

They are bad.  The NFL needs to just pay their refs.  They make billions of dollars, and won't pay their refs.

There is egg all over Roger Goodell's face.

Probably in addition to Jane Skinner.

[Benny B]

You mention the Pats / Ravens game.  Did you notice that DBs were bumping and grabbing pretty much all game...except when they apparently weren't when they decided to throw a flag.  I'm sorry but if you can't see that this is a problem, you clearly don't know enough about football.

So you're going to blame the replacement officials for the actions of DBs who are bumping and grabbing way more than they should be (and way more than they did last year)? 

Since you're clearly my superior in football knowledge, please explain to me why it is that you can't watch 5 minutes of this weekends' NFL highlights without seeing 10 instances of players and coaches screaming in officials' faces.  Detroit runs what turned out to be their last play of OT, and as soon as Hill is swarmed by the Titan defense - before the whistle, mind you - Ryan Broyles (DET# 84) starts pointing at the 6 yard line and screaming at the official for a first down, despite the fact that he was about two yards off of where the ball actually was.  As soon as that FG is kicked in Baltimore, Vince Wilfork (NE# 75) - who was standing on the 10 yard line when the ball went over the goal post - yanks off his helmet, runs 15 yards to get into the officials face, and starts jumping up and down screaming, not to mention that less than 15 seconds later, Wilfork's babysitter Belichek - who was even further away and at a worse angle than Wilfork - is yelling & grabbing said official.  But it's the DBs bumping and grabbing that's the problem?

I may not know enough about football, but you're just being ignorant if you think the replacement officials are 100% to blame for your woes as a fan.

[GGGG]

So you're going to blame the replacement officials for the actions of DBs who are bumping and grabbing way more than they should be (and way more than they did last year)? 

Since you're clearly my superior in football knowledge, please explain to me why it is that you can't watch 5 minutes of this weekends' NFL highlights without seeing 10 instances of players and coaches screaming in officials' faces.  Detroit runs what turned out to be their last play of OT, and as soon as Hill is swarmed by the Titan defense - before the whistle, mind you - Ryan Broyles (DET# 84) starts pointing at the 6 yard line and screaming at the official for a first down, despite the fact that he was about two yards off of where the ball actually was.  As soon as that FG is kicked in Baltimore, Vince Wilfork (NE# 75) - who was standing on the 10 yard line when the ball went over the goal post - yanks off his helmet, runs 15 yards to get into the officials face, and starts jumping up and down screaming, not to mention that less than 15 seconds later, Wilfork's babysitter Belichek - who was even further away and at a worse angle than Wilfork - is yelling & grabbing said official.  But it's the DBs bumping and grabbing that's the problem?

I may not know enough about football, but you're just being ignorant if you think the replacement officials are 100% to blame for your woes as a fan.

Not sure what point you are trying to make.  The replacement referees are very bad....and yes, the players and coaches have occasionally been over-the-top in their reactions to them.