Overreaction

[ATL MU Warrior]

3 to 1 odds it ends like this, seeing how much has gone wrong:

 Another minor infraction from years past is uncovered in the spring against Buzz and then LW will have to make the "hard choice" of moving in another direction.

The university will not fire Buzz Williams unless he has done something to deserve it.  If that's the case, then so be it and good riddance. 

[Goose]

Stone Cold

Even money that deal is in place for Buzz to leave for bigger job at conclusion of this season. All of the negative PR, infraction reporting, suspensions takes the heat off to some degree. Only way I see Buzz here in a year is if the Dick strong's of the school rally enough of BOT to push LW aside.

Buzz wanted to leave this year and MU could not allow Buzz to go to lesser school and gentlemen agreement on exit moving forward. That way school does not get caught with pants down and Buzz can get a good job rather than SMU.

[Blackhat]

two minor infractions could do the job.    showed he hasn't changed.

[nathanziarek]

Buzz wanted to leave this year and MU could not allow Buzz to go to lesser school and gentlemen agreement on exit moving forward. That way school does not get caught with pants down and Buzz can get a good job rather than SMU.

The make-believe fantasy land of the posters on this board is second to none.

[Blackhat]

The make-believe fantasy land of the posters on this board is second to none.

I don't know man things have been going worse and worse.     There's obviously poison in this relationship and our coach's best friend just got canned.    Nothing would surprise me anymore.

[mu03eng]

Why don't you actually try to establish this as a fact first, then someone can actually rebut it.  

All we know as fact is that 6 members of the men's basketball team were ticketed for being in a bar while underage.  At the time, there were 7 guys on the team under 21 (if the wiki is correct and I can do math) so 6 out of 7 is 86%.  

So do you really think that more than 86% of all underage non-basketball athletes are going to bars?  I don't.

But, by all means keep stating your wild speculations and opinions as facts.

EDIT:  FWIW, I don't think being in a bar while underage is a big deal.  But, when you are there, you open yourselves up to the possibility of something going very very wrong (major bar brawl) and getting in trouble for it.

I know for a fact(at least 2) that non-basketball athletes in the last 2 years have been caught underage drinking with no impact to current coaches.  Your move.

[nathanziarek]

There's obviously poison in this relationship...

Well, hang on. You tend not to be one of the "sky is falling" types (at least from my recollection), but I don't see anything obvious about it. Where are we getting any non-rumor-grade information that there is tension? Did I just miss it? Or is this the same recycled fantasy from the 100-page SMU thread?

[Blackhat]

Our head coach bluffed going to SMU this off season because of tension.  Now his best friend is canned.   I'm not a head in sand guy either.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I know for a fact(at least 2) that non-basketball athletes in the last 2 years have been caught underage drinking with no impact to current coaches.  Your move.

Wow!  2 whole people out of how many hundreds of student athletes?  You really just proved absolutely nothing except maybe my original point.  Thanks.

Oh, and what was the impact to current men's basketball coaches of the Apt 720 incident?  How about absolutely nothing.  Buzz didn't get suspended for the Apt 720 incident.  He got suspended for having a liar on his staff under his direct supervision and for apparently not knowing about it.

By all means, keep trying to make this all about some effort by LW and the school to force Buzz to leave.  It keeps this place entertaining (absolutely batsh*t crazy, but entertaining) until the season starts.  

[Goose]

AtlWarrior

LW is not trying to force Buzz out. He is trying to clean up the house for the next coach.

[nathanziarek]

Our head coach bluffed going to SMU this off season because of tension.

Did he? Is that verifiable fact? Let's say Buzz did have talks with SMU. Was it because he wanted out of Marquette or because they offered a ton of money and are close to home?

It's really the last part I'm interested in. I don't expect anyone to stick around because it's the right thing to do. Buzz is hot now. For his sake, he has to take every opportunity to move up.

But the fact that we've attributed it to malice between Buzz and MU bothers me. It feels made up. How can we possibly know what is going on inside of his head?

[ATL MU Warrior]

AtlWarrior

LW is not trying to force Buzz out. He is trying to clean up the house for the next coach.

Utile et Dulce

Would be awesome if you are correct. Aside from stating posters are wrong do you have info to share on the issue. Respect that you think I live on fantasy island and no problem with that. Would love to be brought back to reality...please give me hand and give factual info on your point.

[Goose]

AtlWarrior

Trust me, my saying that I believe MU and Buzz have exit strategy moving forward is not a conspiracy made up in my head. You can believe it came from sources, thus having credibility, or think I am crackpot. Am confused on how you would think I came up with a year later exit strategy in my head and decided to pretend my "fantasy" came from credible sources. I have better things to do with my time than throw out conspiracy theories about MU basketball.

I would hope by now my knowledge of MU program and it's history since 1971 would give me some credibility. Pretty much have seen all the good and bad this program has lived for four decades and hardly want my role on scoop to be known as the tinfoil nut.

[mu03eng]

Wow!  2 whole people out of how many hundreds of student athletes?  You really just proved absolutely nothing except maybe my original point.  Thanks.

Oh, and what was the impact to current men's basketball coaches of the Apt 720 incident?  How about absolutely nothing.  Buzz didn't get suspended for the Apt 720 incident.  He got suspended for having a liar on his staff under his direct supervision and for apparently not knowing about it.

By all means, keep trying to make this all about some effort by LW and the school to force Buzz to leave.  It keeps this place entertaining (absolutely batsh*t crazy, but entertaining) until the season starts.  

I know of 2 incidents through random connections, and I don't exactly have a ton of connections.  What is the probability that the only incidents that happened, were ones I some how learn about?  Put another way, I know of 0.01% of what goes on and that just happens to be the only incidents?  Try extrapolating that.

The players also received no punishment, it was viewed as a legal issue and the coaches handled the discipline(physical, no games or practices missed).

If you want to call me crazy fine, I don't want to be right, but there is enough going that I see that makes me think LW and Pilarz are not interested in retaining Buzz and I have a problem with that.

[avid1010]

i give up reading this crap because i truly don't believe there is anyone on this board that understands the relationship buzz and lw have.  we know buzz is no fool, despite the "aw shucks" persona, and i'm going to go ahead and assume for the sake of this argument that lw isn't a fool either.  so if buzz and larry sit down and decide that mu has to take some chances and play the game a bit to get mu to a higher level, the best way to take those chances safetly is to ensure it appears that mu has a high level of instituitional control anytime buzz' risk taking backfires a bit.  this give buzz the freedom to push the limits a bit while reducing the risk to mu as best as possible.  

the rumors just don't ever seem to be correct, and are always way overblown.  i'd be just as likely to believe that buzz was looking for a reason to get rid of monarch because he felt he could do better now that he's made a name for himself, as i am to believe that lw fired monarch to put pressure on buzz to leave so we can have a team equal to slu.  

i'm just as likely to believe buzz and lw had a really good laugh about his dance at wvu as i am to believe that lw was sincere in his criticism of the incident to the press.

i'm just as likely to believe buzz flirted with smu to try and help beneford get a head coaching job, as i am to believe buzz was seriously considering leaving, or maybe it was just a power play...

i do know that buzz said he's be here as long as mu would have him, and while it certainly possible mu wants him to get a little more control of his program, i don't believe mu wants him out...so it's up to buzz to live up to his word...

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I know of 2 incidents through random connections, and I don't exactly have a ton of connections.  What is the probability that the only incidents that happened, were ones I some how learn about?  Put another way, I know of 0.01% of what goes on and that just happens to be the only incidents?  Try extrapolating that.

The players also received no punishment, it was viewed as a legal issue and the coaches handled the discipline(physical, no games or practices missed).

If you want to call me crazy fine, I don't want to be right, but there is enough going that I see that makes me think LW and Pilarz are not interested in retaining Buzz and I have a problem with that.

Have any MU basketball players missed games for underage drinking?

You need to make it apples to apples.

[Tugg Speedman]

You accuse Scott Monarch of being a liar while spreading your own lies. Half of Buzz's team (guess they're "ours" when they're winning, his when anything goes wrong) didn't get "busted for underage drinking". In fact, NONE of them did. One assistant has been accused of lying, not "his assistants". Ironic that someone on as high a horse as yourself thinks nothing about repeatedly lying about others.

Wow Lenny got up on the wrong side of the bed.

I did not accuse Monarch of being a liar ... MU fired him for being a liar.

As far as the rest, Lenny you're right, 6 members of the team, which is one short of "half the team" were ticketed for being in a bar under the age of 21, right before a fight broke out.  But no one was "busted for drinking." 

And Lenny is right to point out that one assistant lied about violating NCAA rules is different than more than 1 lying about violating NCAA rules.

Now Lenny can explain to all of us why this corrected record makes it seems much less worse than it is.

[KenoshaWarrior]

Lets face it guys.  In one year we might be laughing at these posts.  Im certainly in the minority that thinks that this will all blow over despite my belief that Buzz and Larry are butting heads.  Just cause people butt heads doesnt mean that coaches leaf.  crap for all I know they arent butting heads.
Soon we will laugh about T-shirt gate, just like we laugh at Hiroshima, and just like we laughed about SMU

[Tugg Speedman]

I would hope by now my knowledge of MU program and it's history since 1971 would give me some credibility. Pretty much have seen all the good and bad this program has lived for four decades and hardly want my role on scoop to be known as the tinfoil nut.

Goose,

I understand you have ties to the program and I respect that.  This is not a slam but more my recollection of events over the last few months.  Sorry if the language seems harsh and feel free to correct me. ....

You more than anyone helped this board coin the phrase "Hiroshima" because higher academic standards were going to hurt the program.  Also from your warnings many thought the program was going to become SLU.  You have been very effective in shaping opinion around here and I congratulate you for that.

If academic standards were raised to discourage Jucos, it did not work.  The fact is we just finished one of the best recruiting summers in MU history, capped off by a Juco committing this summer.  So either you were wrong about higher academic standards being instituted.  Or higher academic standards were instituted and you were wrong about its effect on recruiting.  I'll let you decide how you were wrong.

Now you're back after something bad happens to spread gloom and doom again.  That both LW and Buzz desperately want to take a perennial sweet sixteen team and a top recruiting class and smash it to pieces.  Why?  I'm not sure.  

In the long run you may be right but right now all your gloom predictions are batting 0.000.  Why should I listen to a guy that has not been correct?

[Goose]

AnotherMU

Not a big deal but I stated over and over I was not a believer in Hiroshima playing out. Actually that might be the first time I ever said Hiroshima on the board. I stated that I did not agree with MUGuru and never believed we would lose kids to academics. The school would have given kid head's up in April and encourage them to leave at that time. I do think you should check my record before linking me to things I did not support.

As for SLU...stick with my comments, but that was stated in March originally and only ever brought up again to defend myself.

[MerrittsMustache]

Stone Cold

Even money that deal is in place for Buzz to leave for bigger job at conclusion of this season. All of the negative PR, infraction reporting, suspensions takes the heat off to some degree. Only way I see Buzz here in a year is if the Dick strong's of the school rally enough of BOT to push LW aside.

Buzz wanted to leave this year and MU could not allow Buzz to go to lesser school and gentlemen agreement on exit moving forward. That way school does not get caught with pants down and Buzz can get a good job rather than SMU.

The Scoop mods also have a deal in place to let Chicos and Hoopaloop take over control of this board for the 2013-14 season.

[MerrittsMustache]

See Bruce Pearl, he was canned when they were a ranked program for lying about attending a BBQ.  See Jim Tressel, he was fired for covering up and lying about visits to a tattoo parlor.  He only won a NC for Ohio State and that was not enough to save him.  (h/t Pakuni for reminding me about these case specifics)

Word on the street is that in both of the cases you mentioned above, the university wanted to get out ahead of things because if the NCAA started snooping around the programs they'd find a lot worse infractions than a BBQ and tattoos. Get rid of the coach and the NCAA backs off, gives a slap on the wrist and considers the matter handled. The NCAA doesn't want to find their major programs' indiscretions any more than major programs want to get caught.

[rocky_warrior]

The Scoop mods also have a deal in place to let Chicos and Hoopaloop take over control of this board for the 2013-14 season.

Shh, we're soon going to leak the rumor that we've been flirting with the idea of them taking over, but then wait a year before actually handing over control.

[Pakuni]

I know for a fact(at least 2) that non-basketball athletes in the last 2 years have been caught underage drinking with no impact to current coaches.  Your move.

When was a basketball coach impacted by players caught underage drinking?

[NersEllenson]

Why don't you actually try to establish this as a fact first, then someone can actually rebut it.  

All we know as fact is that 6 members of the men's basketball team were ticketed for being in a bar while underage.  At the time, there were 7 guys on the team under 21 (if the wiki is correct and I can do math) so 6 out of 7 is 86%.  

So do you really think that more than 86% of all underage non-basketball athletes are going to bars?  I don't.

But, by all means keep stating your wild speculations and opinions as facts.

EDIT:  FWIW, I don't think being in a bar while underage is a big deal.  But, when you are there, you open yourselves up to the possibility of something going very very wrong (major bar brawl) and getting in trouble for it.

To the bolded point - then stop making it a big f'in deal.  Jesus.

You continue to be an embarrassment to the fanbase of MU.  What fanbase has a fan who is blowing the horn and championing the cause for its best coach in 40 years to be nudged out the door for having an assistant who gave a T-shirt and ride to a kid, flirted with SMU job, has had to suspend players during and after the season (for the first time ever in his 4 year MU career coinciding with the arrival of new President and AD, and said AD already threw Buzz under the bus to the local media in Journal Sentine interview in March.)

So here's some facts for you, while I was at MU from 92-97 I was very close with the whole mens and women's soccer team, men's tennis team, women's volleyball and basketball team - of all of those teams - men's soccer hands down partied more than any of the others many as freshman.  Yet they all were out a lot and all were out more than the basketball team.  Can I say for sure the same still exists at MU?  No.  But I really doubt that just out of the blue, all of a sudden college athletes stop drinking while underage.  To think athletes at campuses across the country, including Notre Dame, aren't partying and drinking is just the height of ignorance.