Overreaction

[Clam Crowder]

Our coach was suspended one game for one of his assistants lying and now we have the people talking about Buzz leaving again...Monarch is a grown man, he lied to his bosses. You are going to be held accountable if your employees are in non-compliance under your management. If Buzz has an issue with Monarch being told to leave when he lied directly to his employees about such a trivial issue Buzz can leave too. The program is the program regardless of the coach, I think the name speaks for itself now. If Buzz has an issue with being held accountable, which he most likely doesn't he can get out. If MU had a major violation for basketball, what the hell would we do? What national reputation would we have? Compliance is a HUGE issue for this school, this is our cash cow, and Buzz needs to make sure that the program is in compliance.

[mu03eng]

Our coach was suspended one game for one of his assistants lying and now we have the people talking about Buzz leaving again...Monarch is a grown man, he lied to his bosses. You are going to be held accountable if your employees are in non-compliance under your management. If Buzz has an issue with Monarch being told to leave when he lied directly to his employees about such a trivial issue Buzz can leave too. The program is the program regardless of the coach, I think the name speaks for itself now. If Buzz has an issue with being held accountable, which he most likely doesn't he can get out. If MU had a major violation for basketball, what the hell would we do? What national reputation would we have? Compliance is a HUGE issue for this school, this is our cash cow, and Buzz needs to make sure that the program is in compliance.

As I stated in another thread, I agree with you and the others that says the firing and suspension are deserved and appropriate/acceptable.  But this is not just one event that happened in a vacuum, this is part of an overall pattern that appears to be of the admin and LW cracking down on the basketball team.  I think some "course correction" was/is appropriate but I'm not comfortable with the amount or method by which it is applied.  I'm also concerned with the lack of uniformity of application to the athletic department as a whole.

One can agree with the outcome of a battle but disagree with the direction of the war.

[Clam Crowder]

I don't think LW has any desire to have a bad team on the floor, maybe his issue was with some Assistants rather than Buzz. Buzz should understand this suspension.

[Tugg Speedman]

I think what most are worried about is if we press Buzz too much, he will get mad and leave.  What that assumes is Buzz is an egomaniac that refuses to accept responsibility for his actions or problems in his program.

I do not believe this is the case.  Buzz knows he screwed up as he is the boss of the basketball program and must realize the punishment is appropriate.  If not, he has bigger problems than an assistant that lied.  

[MerrittsMustache]

As I stated in another thread, I agree with you and the others that says the firing and suspension are deserved and appropriate/acceptable.  But this is not just one event that happened in a vacuum, this is part of an overall pattern that appears to be of the admin and LW cracking down on the basketball team.  I think some "course correction" was/is appropriate but I'm not comfortable with the amount or method by which it is applied.  I'm also concerned with the lack of uniformity of application to the athletic department as a whole.

One can agree with the outcome of a battle but disagree with the direction of the war.

You mentioned this once before. What makes you say that? How have issues within other athletic programs been handled differently?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

But this is not just one event that happened in a vacuum, this is part of an overall pattern that appears to be of the admin and LW cracking down on the basketball team.  

To be fair, that pattern exists because of some poor decisions made by MU basketball players/coaches.

MU didn't make the players go to the bar underage. MU didn't pick a fight with a kid outside of real chilli, etc. etc.

I don't expect perfection out of the players/coaches, but the stuff that is coming up isn't the admin's fault.

EDIT: And, equal enforcement across the athletic department is ideal. However, the basketball team receives benefits that other programs don't get (ipads, charter flights, etc.), so "fair" and "equal" is a relative term.

[Tugg Speedman]

To be fair, that pattern exists because of some poor decisions made by MU basketball players/coaches.

MU didn't make the players go to the bar underage. MU didn't pick a fight with a kid outside of real chilli, etc. etc.

I don't expect perfection out of the players/coaches, but the stuff that is coming up isn't the admin's fault.

EDIT: And, equal enforcement across the athletic department is ideal. However, the basketball team receives benefits that other programs don't get (ipads, charter flights, etc.), so "fair" and "equal" is a relative term.

I think this is the issue, are we in an new era of accountability (post Joe Pa era) or are we still in the era where winning and revenue generation gives one more leeway? 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think this is the issue, are we in an new era of accountability (post Joe Pa era) or are we still in the era where winning and revenue generation gives one more leeway? 

Actually, an interesting turn of events might be that we see/hear about MORE violations in the post JoePa era.

Most reasonable people will understand minor violations here and there, and will probably trust the school more if they do self report.

Schools might not hide anymore, and just put it out there. Small things (like underage drinking, bars, etc.) will probably get shrugged off.

[ATWizJr]

Actually, an interesting turn of events might be that we see/hear about MORE violations in the post JoePa era.

Most reasonable people will understand minor violations here and there, and will probably trust the school more if they do self report.

Schools might not hide anymore, and just put it out there. Small things (like underage drinking, bars, etc.) will probably get shrugged off.
[/quote  MU should have self reported under age drinking to the ncaa?

[Niv Berkowitz]

Actually, an interesting turn of events might be that we see/hear about MORE violations in the post JoePa era.

Sorry...but what is this almighty post Joe Pa era that everyone is talking about that we are now in? How does one assistant coach sexually assaulting players over the course of several decades and an administration/head coach covering that up somehow equate to "things are different now...something something...after Joe Pa."

Schools are going to be on top of this - the smart ones anyway - regardless. You don't need to look to Joe Pa to see why. Look to OU. Look to IU. Look to Tennessee. I don't see how Joe Pa had anything to do with the events that have occurred. Comparing every infraction a school self-reports nowadays to having something to-do with Joe Pa is not apples-to-apples. It's more puppy dogs to dinosaurs or any other ridiculous comparison.

And as everyone knows...people will only care about the whole Joe Pa mess for a limited time. After that, it'll be back to printing more money. It always is. I still remember reading in Tel Aviv how upset the world was at the paparazzi and their publications after they killed Princess Di. Everyone was so ashamed and they washed their hands of the Enquirer's and Daily Mail's of the world and took them off the newsstands at grocery stores....and that lasted for about 9 months.

Money will win out. It always does.

[Pakuni]

Sorry...but what is this almighty post Joe Pa era that everyone is talking about that we are now in? How does one assistant coach sexually assaulting players over the course of several decades and an administration/head coach covering that up somehow equate to "things are different now...something something...after Joe Pa."

Schools are going to be on top of this - the smart ones anyway - regardless. You don't need to look to Joe Pa to see why. Look to OU. Look to IU. Look to Tennessee. I don't see how Joe Pa had anything to do with the events that have occurred. Comparing every infraction a school self-reports nowadays to having something to-do with Joe Pa is not apples-to-apples. It's more puppy dogs to dinosaurs or any other ridiculous comparison.

And as everyone knows...people will only care about the whole Joe Pa mess for a limited time. After that, it'll be back to printing more money. It always is. I still remember reading in Tel Aviv how upset the world was at the paparazzi and their publications after they killed Princess Di. Everyone was so ashamed and they washed their hands of the Enquirer's and Daily Mail's of the world and took them off the newsstands at grocery stores....and that lasted for about 9 months.

Money will win out. It always does.

Yes, money will win out.
College programs have always weighed the benefits of cheating (winning = fans = money) against the costs of losing (loss of scholarships/postseason = loss of money). By and large, and with very few examples to the contrary (see: SMU), the benefits of cheating have outweighed the risks and consequences of getting caught.

The question now, though, is whether in a post Penn State era that balance shifts. Clearly the benefit of "protecting the program" by not exposing Sandusky pales compared to the consequences It would not be hyperbole to suggest that Penn State football will never reach the same level. The Penn State case, I believe, has emboldened the NCAA and the college presidents that run it to crack down on athletic departments. will it work? No idea, but I think they're going to try.

So, at the end of the day, you're right ... the money will win out. The only question is whether the money still says "win at all costs" or "CYA at all costs."

[Hamostradamus]

I think what most are worried about is if we press Buzz too much, he will get mad and leave.  What that assumes is Buzz is an egomaniac that refuses to accept responsibility for his actions or problems in his program.

I do not believe this is the case.  Buzz knows he screwed up as he is the boss of the basketball program and must realize the punishment is appropriate.  If not, he has bigger problems than an assistant that lied.  

Do you think Buzz and LW will both be at MU two years from now? Or one year? Regardless of whether Buzz should or shouldn't happily accept Larry's punishment, either Buzz goes or Larry goes, but no way they are both here in two years.

[mu03eng]

You mentioned this once before. What makes you say that? How have issues within other athletic programs been handled differently?

I'm not going to tell tales out of school, you can trust that I know what I'm saying or not.  Basically the stringency of academics doesn't seem to apply to all sports.  That's one example, I am aware of others

[KenoshaWarrior]

Buzz will be gone at the next big time job in the Southern Plains opens up,  If none opens up he will be here.

[Tugg Speedman]

Why is Buzz leaving?  Because he "doesn't get it" about why he is being punished.  If he goes to an SEC or B12 school, does he really think they they will happily sweep something like this under the rug?  If so, he is in for a rude awakening.

See Bobby Petrino at Arkansas.  He was canned after having arguably the best season in Arkansas football history for lying about an affair ... something that would have been laughed off a few years ago, and even looked at as a positive that shows he "has what it takes."

See Bruce Pearl, he was canned when they were a ranked program for lying about attending a BBQ.  See Jim Tressel, he was fired for covering up and lying about visits to a tattoo parlor.  He only won a NC for Ohio State and that was not enough to save him.  (h/t Pakuni for reminding me about these case specifics)

Turn it around, Buzz has to feel really lucky today.  If he left in June for SMU and Monarch followed him (reasonable idea) and committed these violations at SMU and lied, it is MORE likely Buzz would have been fired with Monarch at SMU than at MU where Buzz has built up good will.

So, again, I do not understand why he is going to leave unless all the "character revealed" stuff is a fraud and he demands he be treated like he is above the rules and is unhappy MU is not.

[Goose]

AnotherMU
The difference in this case might be all MU wants is to get until next season and part ways with Buzz. You are right others were fired for lying and higher profile guys than Buzz. I think LW did what was best for MU and that was protect Buzz and keep NCAA off their backs. Said in April but it was not in MU or Buzz's best interest to go to SMU last spring. I believe MU is putting together a list of guys and are preparing themselves for new coach.

If they had canned Buzz for this infraction who could they hire in late August? I will not agree that only getting a one game suspension is vote of confidence. I look at as MU saying we are one day closer to getting a new coach. Seriously if you were AD or school President wouldn't Buzz scare you a bit? As for me, that edginess is what I like best about him. The more stuff that is leaked or punishments laid out is great buffer for school if big time donors get pissed if we lose Buzz.

LW protected the school and has another documented episode on the "out of control" program.

[Tugg Speedman]

Goose:

You're suggesting LW wants him out.  But, does Buzz want to leave?  Does he think it will be better elsewhere when half his team is busted for underage drinking and his assistants lie (not to mention the rest of the list).

[Goose]

AnotherMU

Honest answer, I think LW wants Buzz gone ASAP before any serious damage happens and Buzz wants to be gone faster. To push things further along for Buzz IMO is the level of local talent. Do any of us really believe Looney and Stone are going to play here, with or without Buzz? Ton of pressure and he probably ends up getting more Texas kids and Juco's which probably is not LW's dream recruit.

I predict that Buzz is at higher profile gig after the season and MU makes a safe hire that pleases most fans. Cottingham and Wild were perfect for Buzz. They hired up and gave him rope. Nobody wants to the rules change after game starts and unfortunately for Buzz and his followers the rules have changed.

[Lennys Tap]

Goose:

You're suggesting LW wants him out.  But, does Buzz want to leave?  Does he think it will be better elsewhere when half his team is busted for underage drinking and his assistants lie (not to mention the rest of the list).

You accuse Scott Monarch of being a liar while spreading your own lies. Half of Buzz's team (guess they're "ours" when they're winning, his when anything goes wrong) didn't get "busted for underage drinking". In fact, NONE of them did. One assistant has been accused of lying, not "his assistants". Ironic that someone on as high a horse as yourself thinks nothing about repeatedly lying about others.

[MU82]

Let's all speculate wildly about what people might or might not be thinking!

[Blackhat]

I can't believe how fast relations and environment has imploded within the athletic department. 

   Wild, Cords, Cottingham must have been dirty as hell.   We go twenty years with no problems through Deane, Crean, and Buzz.   


Then Pilarz and LW come in and uncover we are a cesspool.    Giving out t shirts, going to nightclubs.  wow thank you for saving us Larry.

[NersEllenson]

I can't believe how fast relations and environment has imploded within the athletic department. 

   Wild, Cords, Cottingham must have been dirty as hell.   We go twenty years with no problems through Deane, Crean, and Buzz.   


Then Pilarz and LW come in and uncover we are a cesspool.    Giving out t shirts, going to nightclubs.  wow thank you for saving us Larry.

Bingo.  Keep in mind....there were no player suspensions with regard to missing games/parts of games in Buzz's first 3 seasons..and then magically last year, we have 4 or 5?

I'm still waiting for AnotherMU84 to rebut the fact that there is a far greater likelihood that other non-basketball athletes at MU frequent bars underage, and many of whom drink as underage minors - yet he is outraged that some MU basketball players were at a bar underage NOT drinking!  Hysterial.

I'm blown away at how AnotherMU84 and some here have absolutely made a mountain out of a molehill with regard to these "serious issues" that plague the basketball program.  This crap is chicken littles stuff at high major athletics.  Izzo has minor infractions. Crean's had them at IU.  Calhoun.  Saban and company 27 minor allegations....any suspension of him for a game??

It is absolutely embarrassing that some in our fanbase are so outraged at these issues, or feel Buzz should be rejoicing on Wisconsin Avenue for still being able to coach at MU.  Absolutely embarrassing, yet just goes to show, people are capable of thinking this...so it certainly is possible Larry Williams does as well!

[Blackhat]

I was once told there are so many different compliance rules and interpretations of codes that it would be impossible for anyone to go without minor infractions if you had someone following a coach's every move and action (both honest and deceptive mis steps)


You could have dirt on anyone if you really wanted to.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I'm still waiting for AnotherMU84 to rebut the fact that there is a far greater likelihood that other non-basketball athletes at MU frequent bars underage, and many of whom drink as underage minors - yet he is outraged that some MU basketball players were at a bar underage NOT drinking!  Hysterial.

Why don't you actually try to establish this as a fact first, then someone can actually rebut it.  

All we know as fact is that 6 members of the men's basketball team were ticketed for being in a bar while underage.  At the time, there were 7 guys on the team under 21 (if the wiki is correct and I can do math) so 6 out of 7 is 86%.  

So do you really think that more than 86% of all underage non-basketball athletes are going to bars?  I don't.

But, by all means keep stating your wild speculations and opinions as facts.

EDIT:  FWIW, I don't think being in a bar while underage is a big deal.  But, when you are there, you open yourselves up to the possibility of something going very very wrong (major bar brawl) and getting in trouble for it.

[Blackhat]

3 to 1 odds it ends like this, seeing how much has gone wrong:

 Another minor infraction from years past is uncovered in the spring against Buzz and then LW will have to make the "hard choice" of moving in another direction.