Marquette fires Scott Monarch. Suspends HC Buzz Williams for one League game

[mu03eng]

That I agree with and this is what worries me.  Buzz does not get it.

* SMU
* TJ Taylor
* Todd Mayo suspended and then not suspended
* Apartment 720
* Monrach breaking the rules and lying
* Multiple in-season suspensions
* Newbill
* Sexual assault (harassment)
* Half the team getting busted for being under 21 in a bar
* Vander fight/court appearances, etc.

After all this Buzz get a one-game suspension and he feels jilted? 

First, nice job on the double dipping to make a longer list....getting a ticket for under 21 was part of the Apartment 720 event as well as the in-season suspensions.

Second, Newbill and TJ Taylor are recruiting misses and Newbill occured before LW.

Third, these types of things have gone on to various degrees in previous MU basketball administrations without these clamps being executed.  So clearly the administration has decided that something has to be done and I disagree with that.

[Benny B]

Yes, and Kentucky had reason for pause before hiring Calipari, whose 2 previous schools ended up in hot water with the NCAA.

Anomaly.  There is a pretty large contingent of UK fans who believe this year's title will eventually by vacated.  And they don't care.

[macman320]

Buzz and Larry are the perfect combo, seriously. Buzz can run his team, dance after a win, etc. Larry can lay down the law when needed so the NCAA can feel safe with Marquette and keeping things under control. I'm too young to know the days of Al, but from reading a book on him it sounded like he thought the NCAA was after him and so calling his retirement preseason played a role in how the NCAA/refs treated him the final year. Larry can play the tough guy, Buzz can get his players, and they can build a championship caliber team. Am I being too Naive? Perhaps. Or perhaps I'm being blindside by hope and the upside that these two have together. Someday we'll look back and remember the fun times when Buzz was our coach.

[cheebs09]

Anomaly.  There is a pretty large contingent of UK fans who believe this year's title will eventually by vacated.  And they don't care.

It wouldn't be the Kentucky way if they didn't cheat for a championship

[Dawson Rental]

That I agree with and this is what worries me.  Buzz does not get it.

* SMU
* TJ Taylor
* Todd Mayo suspended and then not suspended
* Apartment 720
* Monrach breaking the rules and lying
* Multiple in-season suspensions
* Newbill
* Sexual assault (harassment)
* Half the team getting busted for being under 21 in a bar
* Vander fight/court appearances, etc.

After all this Buzz get a one-game suspension and he feels jilted?  

First, nice job on the double dipping to make a longer list....getting a ticket for under 21 was part of the Apartment 720 event as well as the in-season suspensions.

Second, Newbill and TJ Taylor are recruiting misses and Newbill occured before LW.

Third, these types of things have gone on to various degrees in previous MU basketball administrations without these clamps being executed.  So clearly the administration has decided that something has to be done and I disagree with that.

I disagree with both of you guys.

Hiring an assistant coach who chose to lie repeatedly to his bosses and people investigating on their behalf about secondary (read minor) violations should leave a head coach open for a one game suspension, especially when that head coach had a close personal relationship with that assistant coach.  As well as Buzz knew Monarch, he should have known whether or not he would try and cover up minor infractions, and Buzz should have made it damn clear to Monarch that his job was to tell the truth in responding to any questions.  This is the start of a new day of accountability (which is the only point anyone is trying to make when Penn State is brought up) where letting an assistant coach take the hit while a HC stands back and says; "I had no idea!" doesn't cut it anymore.  

So yeah, mu03eng, this wouldn't have happened with past MU athletic administrations, but that was then, and this is now and the schools that are late to the party figuring that out are in for some rude shocks from the NCAA down the road.  Personally, I will be more than happy to see that happen because MU has always been one of the programs to try and run a tight ship while other programs got away with committing violations and avoiding accountability when caught by sacrificing some assistant coach.

So yeah, AnotherMU84, there is enough justification for suspending Buzz for one game without bringing up past transgressions (which are irrelevant to this matter) to somehow try and make a stronger case.  LW didn't feel the need to drag any of that past stuff into this matter, and we shouldn't try to drag it in either.

[Tugg Speedman]

I disagree with both of you guys.

Hiring an assistant coach who chose to lie repeatedly to his bosses and people investigating on their behalf about secondary (read minor) violations should leave a head coach open for a one game suspension, especially when that head coach had a close personal relationship with that assistant coach.  As well as Buzz knew Monarch, he should have known whether or not he would try and cover up minor infractions, and Buzz should have made it damn clear to Monarch that his job was to tell the truth in responding to any questions.  This is the start of a new day of accountability (which is the only point anyone is trying to make when Penn State is brought up) where letting an assistant coach take the hit while a HC stands back and says; "I had no idea!" doesn't cut it anymore.  

So yeah, mu03eng, this wouldn't have happened with past MU athletic administrations, but that was then, and this is now and the schools that are late to the party figuring that out are in for some rude shocks from the NCAA down the road.  Personally, I will be more than happy to see that happen because MU has always been one of the programs to try and run a tight ship while other programs got away with committing violations and avoiding accountability when caught by sacrificing some assistant coach.

So yeah, AnotherMU84, there is enough justification for suspending Buzz for one game without bringing up past transgressions (which are irrelevant to this matter) to somehow try and make a stronger case.  LW didn't feel the need to drag any of that past stuff into this matter, and we shouldn't try to drag it in either.

Good post ... in the end with are both trying to say this has little to do with LW trying to turn us into SLU, or trying to run Buzz out of town, and everything to do with how Buzz's program is run ... be it just this infraction or the culmination of all the infractions over the last two years.

And you got the Joe Pa reference exactly right.  

[Tugg Speedman]

Second, Newbill and TJ Taylor are recruiting misses and Newbill occured before LW.

Newbill was cut because someone better came along at the last minute (Wilson).  The implication was he was BE material but was traded for someone better.  I still have no problem with that but this is on the line which is why I included it.  You can disagree.

BUZZ SAID (on ESPN Milw Radio, last month) he knew TJ Taylor since he was in 8th grade and BUZZ SAID he has been close to his family for many years.  He lasted, what two days, before going home.  Given Buzz's bragging about his deep and long relationship with a recruit that lasted a few days is why I included it on the list.  You can disagree.

I did not put Roseboro or Durley on the list as they were "cut" because it was decided they were not BE material.  I have to problem with that.  It happens.  

I also did not include all the transfers (Jones, Reggie Miller, Ewill, Jmay, etc) because that too happens and does not signal a problem with the program.  It happens

[MerrittsMustache]

Newbill was cut because someone better came along at the last minute (Wilson).  The implication was he was BE material but was traded for someone better.  I still have no problem with that but this is on the line which is why I included it.  You can disagree.

BUZZ SAID (on ESPN Milw Radio, last month) he knew TJ Taylor since he was in 8th grade and BUZZ SAID he has been close to his family for many years.  He lasted, what two days, before going home.  Given Buzz's bragging about his deep and long relationship with a recruit that lasted a few days is why I included it on the list.  You can disagree.

I did not put Roseboro or Durley on the list as they were "cut" because it was decided they were not BE material.  I have to problem with that.  It happens.  

I also did not include all the transfers (Jones, Reggie Miller, Ewill, Jmay, etc) because that too happens and does not signal a problem with the program.  It happens

The loss of Reggie Miller is really going to hurt MU's outside shooting this season. He was a defensive liability though.

[mu03eng]

I disagree with both of you guys.

Hiring an assistant coach who chose to lie repeatedly to his bosses and people investigating on their behalf about secondary (read minor) violations should leave a head coach open for a one game suspension, especially when that head coach had a close personal relationship with that assistant coach.  As well as Buzz knew Monarch, he should have known whether or not he would try and cover up minor infractions, and Buzz should have made it damn clear to Monarch that his job was to tell the truth in responding to any questions.  This is the start of a new day of accountability (which is the only point anyone is trying to make when Penn State is brought up) where letting an assistant coach take the hit while a HC stands back and says; "I had no idea!" doesn't cut it anymore.  

So yeah, mu03eng, this wouldn't have happened with past MU athletic administrations, but that was then, and this is now and the schools that are late to the party figuring that out are in for some rude shocks from the NCAA down the road.  Personally, I will be more than happy to see that happen because MU has always been one of the programs to try and run a tight ship while other programs got away with committing violations and avoiding accountability when caught by sacrificing some assistant coach.

Murs, in the case of the Monarch firing and Buzz suspension, I agree it was warranted.  If that was the only thing that had happened over the last 2 years, I would be nothing but a cheerleader for the administration and Larry Williams.  I also think Buzz should be fine with what happened in this particular instance because he preaches accountability, he should have some of his own.

I also agree that the HC should be accountable, and that we are only going to see more of that in this day and age, with the exception of massive academic fraud at North Carolina for a decade apparently but I digress.  In fact I strongly believe in that, which is why I'm concerned about the clamps being turned on Buzz and staff over the last 2 years that are definitely not to being applied other athletic programs at Marquette.

I want men of principal running things, and who do the right thing because it is right not because it is expedient.  Right now looking at it as a whole, I feel like the admin and LW are applying principal only where it has an impact on MU's media image, not to MU as a whole and that bothers me.

[axaguy]

The skinny.....let's be real here. We are a big time program, we all want to be here but have to accept the responsibility that comes with it. We have performed well in the Big East and on the national stage of late and have a pedigree and colorful history in basketball in a huge, if not largest, revenue generating source for the university, regardless of where the funds are spent or classified. It's a big business......

Buzz and all his "friends" are "lifers" in the biz. They KNOW the rules, what works, what everyone else does, know all about inside stuff in the life and environment. "I didn't know that" or "wasn't aware of that" are just plain excuses and lies, I believe.

I DO believe that Buzz, personally, wasn't aware of the SPECIFIC violation with the SPECIFIC individual called in question but is WELL aware of what all his assistants do with recruits and are allowed, internally. His so called "deep" friendships certainly suggest that all involved are on pretty much the "same page" going forward and all invoved with the program have a firm understanding of what Buzz wants and needs relative to the competition. He IS the man in charge. "Don't get caught" and "don't do anything exceedingly stupid," I'm sure. are mantras to be observed.

The violation/s were considered minor. and I'll bet frequently violated without reprisal by almost everyone out there. What's t-shirt and a ride???? BUT, the integrity issue???? HUGE!!!! Especially in the face of extra scrutiny on coaches and programs today.

I worked for a multi-national private company for 26 years and if you made mistakes, errors and/or big screw-ups
you would get disciplined, sanctioned, demoted and such but the only thing that got you fired was lying about it....
If you owned up you got beat up, if you didn't you got fired. As simple as that. Make a mistake or a bad plan on a big project and life got miserable for a while but falsify an expense account or lie about accountability and you got fired immediately. A coach lies............good bye, friend or no friend, plain and simple.

Buzz is and should be accountable for the program. Marquette wants success and therfore will be out there in the public eye for all kinds of scrutiny and wants to maintain an image we all desire. It's Buzz's responsibility for which he is quite ably compensated.............

The program has experienced a few misteps of late. Thank goodness Notre Dame and Penn State's problems have taken a spot light off our dirty sagas. Not excusing them at all or happy about the others........they still happened and are areas of concern for a lot of reasons.

A suspension of Buzz for no "apparent" or specific reason seems odd but may be the message to him and others that boundries are being established and enforced and need to be better monitored in the future.

It's Buzz's basketball program but our university. Sweet sixteens are nice but are we proud of how we get there??? Does Penn State, Notre Dame and Marquette sound good in the same sentence?? If you get to the point you think about putting on your MU sweatshirt on in public, it's time to reassess...............Pride....at what cost??

[Lennys Tap]

It's Buzz's basketball program but our university. Sweet sixteens are nice but are we proud of how we get there??? Does Penn State, Notre Dame and Marquette sound good in the same sentence?? If you get to the point you think about putting on your MU sweatshirt on in public, it's time to reassess...............Pride....at what cost??

Penn State and Marquette in the same sentence? Really. If this or anything else that's transpired in the last 4 (or 12 or 50) years makes you embarrassed to wear your Marquette sweatshirt in public, then don't. Better yet, burn it on your front lawn. Let's leave no doubt about the heights of your sanctimony.

[Niv Berkowitz]

Enough of this effing "after Joe Pa" b.s. Life/infractions will continue to go on. And guess what, even in this dark depressing post-Joe Pa era, schools will still self impose penalties and fire people for breaking the rules.

Jesus Christoff in a chicken basket. This isn't Joe Pa or have anything to do w/Joe Pa. Comparing the cover up of dozens of sexual assaults that occurred on your campus and people of authority new does NOT equal giving a kid a ride to an airport along with a t-shirt. Even lying about the later doesn't compare to the former.

[Rubie Q]

Enough of this effing "after Joe Pa" b.s. Life/infractions will continue to go on. And guess what, even in this dark depressing post-Joe Pa era, schools will still self impose penalties and fire people for breaking the rules.

Jesus Christoff in a chicken basket. This isn't Joe Pa or have anything to do w/Joe Pa. Comparing the cover up of dozens of sexual assaults that occurred on your campus and people of authority new does NOT equal giving a kid a ride to an airport along with a t-shirt. Even lying about the later doesn't compare to the former.

I don't think people are comparing what happened at Penn State to what happened at Marquette; at least I haven't read it that way. The "after JoePa" stuff isn't some kind of abstract discussion about how things are going to be different in the wake of the Penn State scandal. It's very real: there's NCAA legislation on the table right now that would change the way things are done, compliance-wise.

http://athleticbusiness.com/articles/lexisnexis.aspx?lnarticleid=1718192389&lntopicid=136030023

Worth noting in the penultimate paragraph:

"The proposals also set out to better hold coaches accountable for establishing a tone of compliance. The most serious rules breakers could be subject to suspensions as great as a full season or a show-cause order as long as 10 years."

[Tugg Speedman]

Rubie is right

In the wake of Penn State the world for coaches has changed/is changing.  No longer is "I did not know" going to work.  If something goes wrong in the program, and no matter how removed the head coach is from the infraction, the head coach is going to be punished for it.  That is what happened here.

[The Process]

Rubie is right

In the wake of Penn State the world for coaches has changed/is changing.  No longer is "I did not know" going to work.  If something goes wrong in the program, and no matter how removed the head coach is from the infraction, the head coach is going to be punished for it.  That is what happened here.

It's not just in the wake of Penn State.  The whole concept of "I did not know" no longer being a valid defense goes back even further, to the Calhoun suspension, for example.  If we go back to Page 8 of this thread:

The part that I found most interesting in Pat Forde's piece about accountability in the wake of the Calhoun suspension was this:

Dennis Thomas, chairman of the Committee on Infractions, tried his best not to say much on a teleconference announcing UConn's penalties Tuesday. But one point that came through rather clearly was that a head coach is responsible for keeping his program clean, and ignorance is no defense.

"This is something that a head coach should know about and ensure that everyone is in compliance," Thomas said of the improper benefits, contacts and agent dealings UConn had in its recruitment of Miles. "And that didn't happen. ... This situation specifically dealt with issues the head coach should have known about."

The "I didn't know" defense has gone away since 2009, to paraphrase much of the rest of the linked article.

[Tugg Speedman]

Awesome, you are correct that the trend is holding the HC responsible has been evolving for years.  Joe Pa/Penn State accelerated it.

So answer this for me.  Buzz "Character Revealed" Williams should completely and totally understand that the HC is responsible and will be punished anytime something goes wrong.  Simply, this is now how the world works.  He should not be mad at Larry Williams for firing Monarch and suspending him for a game (he should be mad at Monarch). 

So why do people keep saying this cements the idea that Buzz will leave in a year or two?  Did Buzz honestly expect MU to sweep this under the rug and does he think another school will?

[The Process]

Awesome, you are correct that the trend is holding the HC responsible has been evolving for years.  Joe Pa/Penn State accelerated it.

So answer this for me.  Buzz "Character Revealed" Williams should completely and totally understand that the HC is responsible and will be punished anytime something goes wrong.  Simply, this is now how the world works.  He should not be mad at Larry Williams for firing Monarch and suspending him for a game (he should be mad at Monarch). 

So why do people keep saying this cements the idea that Buzz will leave in a year or two?  Did Buzz honestly expect MU to sweep this under the rug and does he think another school will?

Shouldn't this be in another thread?

I'm not jumping to conclusions yet on whether or not Buzz is happy/sad/mad/etc at the administration for this.  That's not my place to do so.

If he leaves in part because he's upset over this, that's life, unfortunately.  MU had to self-report this.

If he stays and is cool with the suspension because he understands accountability, that's wonderful and shows that he holds himself to the same levels of accountability he holds his players to.

Will he leave?  There is but one person who has the answer to that:

[radome]

We don't know much about the details of this but I suspect that most organizations will coordinate with other levels of management before acting. All I'm saying is that this COULD be Buzz' solution with the AD's approval. Who knows? I always collaborate with middle management before I act.

[Lennys Tap]

Rubie is right

In the wake of Penn State the world for coaches has changed/is changing.  No longer is "I did not know" going to work.  If something goes wrong in the program, and no matter how removed the head coach is from the infraction, the head coach is going to be punished for it.  That is what happened here.

So when do you think Alabama will fire or suspend Nick Saban for the 20+ violations (that we know of) which have been self reported to the NCAA? I'm sure if Alabama doesn't put the hammer down on Nick the campus will be crawling with investigators, right?

[The Process]

So when do you think Alabama will fire or suspend Nick Saban for the 20+ violations (that we know of) which have been self reported to the NCAA? I'm sure if Alabama doesn't put the hammer down on Nick the campus will be crawling with investigators, right?

Not to be a wet blanket, but only 4 of those 27 were with the football team...

Has anyone seen evidence of lying with regards to these secondary violations at Alabama...?  It wasn't the violations that got Monarch canned, it's the repeated lying about it.

[MU82]

My computer must being acting up, because it's telling me you're comparing Buzz Williams with John Calipari who, when hired by Kentucky, was a two-time national coach of the year with two Final Fours, three Elite Eights and two Sweet Sixteens.
Do I need to call the repairman?

Calipari definitely came with more credentials than Buzz. Also with significantly more baggage.

The point wasn't to compare the resumes of the two coaches. The point was that potential employers see what they want to see.

[MUMac]

The loss of Reggie Miller is really going to hurt MU's outside shooting this season. He was a defensive liability though.

And boom goes the dynamite.  

[Pakuni]

So when do you think Alabama will fire or suspend Nick Saban for the 20+ violations (that we know of) which have been self reported to the NCAA? I'm sure if Alabama doesn't put the hammer down on Nick the campus will be crawling with investigators, right?

1. Has there been a widespread call for Buzz Williams' firing around here?
2. Is an SEC football program really what you want Marquette to model itself after?
3. Only four of those Alabama violations stemmed from football, none related to giving something to a recruit and there's no indication anyone lied to cover it up. Apples/oranges.

[MU82]

Don't lie. Keep your job.

This shouldn't be a difficult thing to follow.

[Tugg Speedman]

1. Has there been a widespread call for Buzz Williams' firing around here?
2. Is an SEC football program really what you want Marquette to model itself after?
3. Only four of those Alabama violations stemmed from football, none related to giving something to a recruit and there's no indication anyone lied to cover it up. Apples/oranges.

I'll answer these for Lenny ...

1. Absolutely No one has called for Buzz's head.  Rather the discussion is whether a one BE game suspension is appropriate or not.  According to the poll, 2/3s say yes.

2. No, nothing more needs to be said.

3. Has Alabama taken action, or said they will not?  I think this is still a work in process.