MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: AirPunches on August 24, 2012, 08:07:55 PM
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Monarch fired and Buzz suspended per Goodman tweet.
Jeff Goodman@GoodmanCBS
Marquette has fired asst. coach Scott Monarch and suspended Buzz Williams for one game for Monarch violations and providing misleading info.
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http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19900331/marquette-assistant-fired-buzz-williams-suspended-for-first-big-east-game
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Yikes, anyone care to the domer/buzz relationship is all rainbows still?
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University Reports Violations In Men's Basketball To NCAA
Assistant men's basketball coach Scott Monarch has been dismissed, head coach Buzz Williams announced today.
http://onlyfans.cstv.com/schools/marq/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/082412aaa.html
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Yikes, anyone care to the domer/buzz relationship is all rainbows still?
Mo Money, Mo Problems
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Chernobyl
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How many slaps on the wrist can a man get?
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Article says Buzz knew no knowledge of the investigation and Monarch was not being forthright on multiple occasions. I side with LW on the Monarch firing. I'm not sure if Buzz knew nothing of it, why he has to be suspended a Big East game.
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Don't worry, Whalen's on the case.
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Article says Buzz knew no knowledge of the investigation and Monarch was not being forthright on multiple occasions. I side with LW on the Monarch firing. I'm not sure if Buzz knew nothing of it, why he has to be suspended a Big East game.
That's what happens. The boss who picks and controls his employees gets punished when his employees do wrong. I'm fine with the 1 game suspension. Nothing drastic but sends a message.
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Wonder what "outside law firm"?
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How many times has Buzz said, "Wish I would have taken SMU", over the past few weeks?
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How many times has Buzz said, "Wish I would have taken SMU", over the past few weeks?
None because that's a crap job.
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MU fires assistant men's basketball coach over rules violations
Marquette University head basketball coach Buzz Williams said Friday that Scott Monarch, one of his top assistants, had been dismissed after an investigation determined Monarch had been untruthful with department administrators after they learned he had committed violations involving a recruit.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/167393425.html
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Wonder what "outside law firm"?
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTBqsS47M0PEPnxUk-ycVd0c_dib4LAhdJTu7t69CIDOTz8iQq-)
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did you even read the article - minor violations but Monarch lied repeatedly about it...
Buzz says...
When I was allowed to review the report earlier this week, I was deeply saddened to learn of an error in judgment of one of my assistants and closest friends,” Buzz Williams said in a statement. “I take personal responsibility for what happens in this program and realize we must be role models to both our team and the entire University. Our commitment has always been and will always be to operate this program at the highest level of integrity in the Marquette and Jesuit tradition.”
How many times has Buzz said, "Wish I would have taken SMU", over the past few weeks?
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Seems like a bit of an overreaction for a supposed free t shirt though. Can we assume this was something a bit more serious?
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Seems like a bit of an overreaction for a supposed free t shirt though. Can we assume this was something a bit more serious?
I doubt it since the story says:
"If Monarch had been truthful, he'd almost certainly still have a job," one source close to the program told CBSSports.com. "These were minor things."
Monarch gave a Marquette recruit apparel and also drove him home, which have been deemed as secondary violations. The Golden Eagles were also hit with the loss of an official visit due to the violations.
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did you even read the article - minor violations but Monarch lied repeatedly about it...
Buzz says...
When I was allowed to review the report earlier this week, I was deeply saddened to learn of an error in judgment of one of my assistants and closest friends,” Buzz Williams said in a statement. “I take personal responsibility for what happens in this program and realize we must be role models to both our team and the entire University. Our commitment has always been and will always be to operate this program at the highest level of integrity in the Marquette and Jesuit tradition.”
Huggs said the same thing when his assitant was helping his athletes cheat on tests.........................................................................................
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The Golden Eagles were also hit with the loss of an official visit due to the violations.
hopefully not the Nunn visit...
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Did MU determine that they lost an official visit or was that the NCAA?
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Why werent these secondary violations reported? Gotta love MU on Friday Nights
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Did MU determine that they lost an official visit or was that the NCAA?
All MU apparently.
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Buzz cut for a better assistant?
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My guess (and I'm making this up) ... Monarch gave Duane Wilson some MU gear and drove him home. All minor violations. Then he lied repeatedly about it.
It's not the crime but the attempt to cover it up.
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I am done with Buzz. Monarch had to do s000t before and he is Buzz's guy. Next up?
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Don't worry, Bitch is on the case.
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(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTBqsS47M0PEPnxUk-ycVd0c_dib4LAhdJTu7t69CIDOTz8iQq-)
Gruber is Pearl's sheister.
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did you even read the article - minor violations but Monarch lied repeatedly about it...
Buzz says...
When I was allowed to review the report earlier this week, I was deeply saddened to learn of an error in judgment of one of my assistants and closest friends,” Buzz Williams said in a statement. “I take personal responsibility for what happens in this program and realize we must be role models to both our team and the entire University. Our commitment has always been and will always be to operate this program at the highest level of integrity in the Marquette and Jesuit tradition.”
Buzz knew about this before "earlier this week." A Scoop regular told me about a week ago that this was going to be the result of things.
Complete embarrassment. Buzz is lucky it is only one game...very lucky IMO.
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Bye bye. I hate liars.
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Buzz knew about this before "earlier this week." A Scoop regular told me about a week ago that this was going to be the result of things.
Complete embarrassment. Buzz is lucky it is only one game...very lucky IMO.
Completely right. Didn't we all know about this violation a month ago? So Buzz just learned that Monarch was lying about it or did Buzz not know about the violation until now? Either way he knew.
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Suspended since mid-June. Wainwright hired in mid-June. Guessing that's how the now vacant assistant position gets filled.
A strong measure for a t-shirt and a ride home, not so much for a t-shirt, a ride home, and a multitude of lies. Look the other way rather than show strength to comply and it eventually becomes a t-shirt, a round-trip flight, free meals and lodging, and representation from a wannabe agent-then you're UConn and have too many problems to count.
Completely right. Didn't we all know about this violation a month ago? So Buzz just learned that Monarch was lying about it or did Buzz not know about the violation until now? Either way he knew.
Careful wording by Buzz, "when I was allowed to review the report earlier this week", not "when I became aware of the violation". He didn't just wake up a few days ago and wonder where Monarch was the past two months when he had been suspended.
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Careful wording by Buzz, "when I was allowed to review the report earlier this week", not "when I became aware of the violation". He didn't just wake up a few days ago and wonder where Monarch was the past two months when he had been suspended.
Good point.
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Completely right. Didn't we all know about this violation a month ago? So Buzz just learned that Monarch was lying about it or did Buzz not know about the violation until now? Either way he knew.
I'm sure he knew about the investigation, but how would he know Monarch lied? Wasn't that the point of the investigation?
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Would someone clarify. Were these the same "secondary" violations that were self-reported (and publicized) one month ago or different ones?
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Would someone clarify? Were these the same "secondary" violations that were self-reported (and publicized) one month ago or different ones?
These are the same ones. And those reports were only a couple weeks ago.
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Agree on the wording by Buzz. I would assume that he talks to his assistant coaches every week and I would also assume that his assistants would share what information they were sharing with the "investigation". I also assume that Buzz knows the whole story.
But I guess that's what I get for assuming.
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I started hearing Monarch was gone in the last 5-6 weeks. Have heard many went to the mat for him, but to no avail. If he did lie, he did himself no favors.
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I started hearing Monarch was gone in the last 5-6 weeks. Have heard many went to the mat for him, but to no avail. If he did lie, he did himself no favors.
No Buzz BBQ appearance by Monarch (suspension). Wainwright hired right before for DBO or more (coaching bench). The lying is the mortal sin and a dumb ass move which called in the legal eagles. No choice considering.
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I understand at some level that Monarch had to go because he allegedly lied to investigators, whoever they were. However, I hope after all the initial reports come out incriminating him, someone does a proper article on all the good he did for kids. The combination of Jae and MU obviously did a lot for both, and who knows what would have happened with Jae had Monarch not gotten him here.
I don't know who else he recruited from Jucos, or otherwise, while at MU, or the details of what he did. However, I'm guessing that the way he came up, he did it through hours in the gym and hard work, not giving freebies to kids to get the best recruits.
I hope all the good gets noted, rather than just this bs precipitated by arbitrary NCAA regs.
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I understand at some level that Monarch had to go because he allegedly lied to investigators, whoever they were. However, I hope after all the initial reports come out incriminating him, someone does a proper article on all the good he did for kids. The combination of Jae and MU obviously did a lot for both, and who knows what would have happened with Jae had Monarch not gotten him here.
I don't know who else he recruited from Jucos, or otherwise, while at MU, or the details of what he did. However, I'm guessing that the way he came up, he did it through hours in the gym and hard work, not giving freebies to kids to get the best recruits.
I hope all the good gets noted, rather than just this bs precipitated by arbitrary NCAA regs.
Yea, it's all bs except for the fact that he knowingly broke the rules and then lied about it. But except for that...
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Like I said, after it all comes out, I hope someone looks at the other scale and compares it to the one that you just set forth.
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#FireLarryWilliams
#NotreDameMole
#JustSayNoToHiroshima
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Like I said, after it all comes out, I hope someone looks at the other scale and compares it to the one that you just set forth.
Feel free to enlighten us. I can only look at what's presented.
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I never like to see a person get fired, but is Scott Monarch an idiot? Bruce Pearl got his head handed to him for a minor infraction, having a junior come to his house for
a barbecue, (kid was there for 20 minutes), lost a ton on money and got fired. What can that coach been thinking? Scott I am sure knows about BP lying. This makes
no sense to loss you job over a ride and a few tees. But to lie like Bruce, what was he thinking? See ya.
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much more to read here: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8301365/marquette-golden-eagles-dismiss-assistant-coach-scott-monarch (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8301365/marquette-golden-eagles-dismiss-assistant-coach-scott-monarch)
including some LW quotes...
"Through the course of the investigation, it became clear, ultimately, to the independent investigator, he admitted the (dishonesty)," Larry Williams said.
Had Monarch admitted the violations right away, it's possible that he would have faced less severe punishment.
"Which makes this all the more troubling," Larry Williams said. "This is not something that should rise to this level of untruthfulness."
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If Monarch lied, he goes.
What's odd about this is why wasn't Buzz in the loop? Buzz hired him. Buzz should be the one to let him go. Pretty basic.
This does not smell right. Clearly, something ks missing in this story. Why wasn't Buzz on point with the decision to terminate? Buzz is not stupid. Do we haven place another "athletic board"?
LW, ever hear of servant leadership?
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"By the way, Buzz Williams getting a suspension from his school b/c an assistant lied is the type of thing that makes men look at other jobs."
@GaryParrishCBS
Does anyone believe both Buzz and LW will be at MU 2 years from now? Or 1? OTOH, they did have a moment golfing together this summer, so I'm sure they are still BFFs.
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Monarch probably lied thinking he was protecting Buzz.
If this about giving a t-shirt and ride home, it is amazing that they even found out about it. Who saw this and reported it? .... it's all Bo's fault!!
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Larry better have his Top 5 list ready to go.
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Larry, we get that you feel that you need to play the heavy. Yes, monarch should have been let go. Beyond that, based on what's public, the rest is overkill, and you are grandstanding.
How would you have dealt with the crap your alma mater spewed with their football team's issues? Just like the curent administration at ND?
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I'll go with .. Buzz and LW are fine. Buzz isn't crying about missing the Colgate or SE Louisiana game. LW said, hey, we need to show the NCAA we're tough on crime, how about you're "suspended" a game? Buzz says sure.
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"By the way, Buzz Williams getting a suspension from his school b/c an assistant lied is the type of thing that makes men look at other jobs."
@GaryParrishCBS
Does anyone believe both Buzz and LW will be at MU 2 years from now? Or 1? OTOH, they did have a moment golfing together this summer, so I'm sure they are still BFFs.
I'm sure madtown and Lab will be here any minute to defend Larry.
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I'll go with .. Buzz and LW are fine. Buzz isn't crying about missing the Colgate or SE Louisiana game. LW said, hey, we need to show the NCAA we're tough on crime, how about you're "suspended" a game? Buzz says sure.
Pretty sure he's out a Big East game.
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Larry better have his Top 5 list ready to go.
I think we're probably at the point where everybody -- Buzz, Larry, the BOT -- is ready for Buzz to move on. And it might be for the best for everyone involved.
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well, I been here for a bit on this thread. My thoughts - must be more to the story than a free tshirt, ride home and lying from Monarch. The carefully worded PR from Buzz would make me think he's not here for the long haul if the right job comes open (not the suck crap job at SMU)...
I'm sure madtown and Lab will be here any minute to defend Larry.
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I'm sure madtown and Lab will be here any minute to defend Larry.
I think Buzz should have gotten more....but maybe that's just me.
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I think we're probably at the point where everybody -- Buzz, Larry, the BOT -- is ready for Buzz to move on. And it might be for the best for everyone involved.
Disagree. These are adults and they should be able to get over it. But I'm getting worried we will have to find a new coach soon. Larry can't f*** that hire up.
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I think Buzz should have gotten more....but maybe that's just me.
Is that based on knowing more about the issue? Or do we all know the same basic details?
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Is that based on knowing more about the issue? Or do we all know the same basic details?
That is based on the details we know....I know nothing more.
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I'll go with .. Buzz and LW are fine. Buzz isn't crying about missing the Colgate or SE Louisiana game. LW said, hey, we need to show the NCAA we're tough on crime, how about you're "suspended" a game? Buzz says sure.
This is the bandwagon I'm riding.
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Disagree. These are adults and they should be able to get over it. But I'm getting worried we will have to find a new coach soon. Larry can't f*** that hire up.
Oh yes he can.
All he has shown is ability to assert his weight. He has not shown his ability to lead. Based on what is public so far, this is effed up.
I maintain, Buzz should have been on point with HIS decision to terminate. Anything less....it falls on LW's shoulders as poor leadership.
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Why would Buzz leave over this? Does he expect his employer to willingly cover up NCAA violations?
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That is based on the details we know....I know nothing more.
Are you assuming Buzz was part of the cover up?
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Maybe Buzz and Larry are fine, maybe they're not. Maybe there's more to this than what we've been told, maybe there isn't.
Can't we just have a beer summit instead of jumping to conclusions, good/bad/whatever, just yet?
http://www.youtube.com/v/xRxqY4wuTHw
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Gary Parrish@GaryParrishCBS
"How many other coaches with back-to-back Sweet Sixteens you think would get a suspension from his own school for this? Zero, I'd bet."
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Oh yes he can.
All he has shown is ability to assert his weight. He has not shown his ability to lead. Based on what is public so far, this is effed up.
I maintain, Buzz should have been on point with HIS decision to terminate. Anything less....it falls on LW's shoulders as poor leadership.
I thought the wording at the beginning of the ESPN article was somewhat telling.
"Marquette coach Buzz Williams announced the dismissal of assistant Scott Monarch on Friday,"
LW did not have to allow Buzz to make that announcement, especially when Buzz himself is facing a suspension. So, I'm thinking that that was a smart move on LW's part to avoid having more suspicion fall upon Buzz. Class move.
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Gary Parrish@GaryParrishCBS
"How many other coaches with back-to-back Sweet Sixteens you think would get a suspension from his own school for this? Zero, I'd bet."
Sounds like Parrish was trying to stoke the fire against LW but in my opinion, it reiterates LW's point that MU operates at a higher standard.
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Murs, I respectfully disagree. This should have been Buzz's decision. Period. There is no other way to spin this.
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Why would Buzz leave over this? Does he expect his employer to willingly cover up NCAA violations?
Agree - it's not like there is the kind of animosity there was between al McGuire and his Jesuit bosses at MU when they would let him break his contract to take the bucks job, right?
Imagine the strands MUScoop would have had then on how much Al wanted out.
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Sounds like Parrish was trying to stoke the fire against LW but in my opinion, it reiterates LW's point that MU operates at a higher standard.
Honestly, Parrish is almost as dumb as Skip Bayless. I've lost what little respect I had for Parrish over the past couple years.
Murs, I respectfully disagree. This should have been Buzz's decision. Period. There is no other way to spin this.
Is it clear that Buzz didn't have a spot at the table when this decision was made? Am I missing something here...?
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'“When I was allowed to review the report earlier this week
what's wrong with that statement? allowed?
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Sounds like Parrish was trying to stoke the fire against LW but in my opinion, it reiterates LW's point that MU operates at a higher standard.
I'm just worried that if LW chases Buzz away then hires his own nobody guy and he turns out to be a bad coach this team will be sent into dark ages.
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Capt., the spin on this is that "Buzz Williams announces". There is nothing stated that says that "Buzz decided".
I assume that the PR staff did not miss out on this important distinction. If they did, and this truly was Buzz's decision, them I stand corrected.
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Capt., the spin on this is that "Buzz Williams announces". There is nothing stated that says that "Buzz decided".
I assume that the PR staff did not miss out on this important distinction. If they did, and this truly was Buzz's decision, them I stand corrected.
And that's the missing piece here. I don't know if we'll know the answer to that anytime soon, though.
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Murs, I respectfully disagree. This should have been Buzz's decision. Period. There is no other way to spin this.
Right back at ya... the respectfully disagree part.
Buzz's job demands that he keeps up on the evolution of the game, coaching wise, track three or four classes of potential recruits, keep track of the guys who are in the program regarding their basketball development, their academics, and their personal behavior (at least in public), game plan for opponents, keep himself his assistants, and his players up to date on NCAA regulations, AND you want him to be the guy who runs an investigation of his own assistant coach (and good friend) and researches the correct way to report the findings to the NCAA and to figure out which self imposed sanctions are most appropriate?
What would be left for LW to do?
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I'm just worried that if LW chases Buzz away then hires his own nobody guy and he turns out to be a bad coach this team will be sent into dark ages.
If Buzz is who he says he is (and I believe he is), he is on LW's side on this one. Monarch would still have a job if he didn't lie. Apparently repeatedly.
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Agreed.....thus the frustration with LW. He had a lot of time to get this right.
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Punishment is more than fair for the infraction. This was not a shirt or Brewer ticket infraction. This falls into a bigger pond than the bar fight or any of last years issues. MU does not want any infractions and are not going to allow stuff to happen. I hope this issue blows away quickly and all we lose is an assistant.
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'“When I was allowed to review the report earlier this week
what's wrong with that statement? allowed?
If you're a secondary subject in an investigation, I don't see what's wrong with not allowing you to read a report until others have had the chance to review and evaluate. Do you let a criminal's attorney review the police notes during an investigation? No, he/she gets to see the report when it's complete.
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LW did the right thing here. I am not pro LW, but under the circumstances he made right choice.
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'“When I was allowed to review the report earlier this week
what's wrong with that statement? allowed?
Don't forget that we're talking about a report of an investigation into Buzz's program. Until it was completed, MU didn't have any basis for forming an opinion on whether Buzz was a part of the initial infractions or was in on the coverup by Monarch. It had to be done by someone outside the program to have any legitimacy.
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Right back at ya... the respectfully disagree part.
Buzz's job demands that he keeps up on the evolution of the game, coaching wise, track three or four classes of potential recruits, keep track of the guys who are in the program regarding their basketball development, their academics, and their personal behavior (at least in public), game plan for opponents, keep himself his assistants, and his players up to date on NCAA regulations, AND you want him to be the guy who runs an investigation of his own assistant coach (and good friend) and researches the correct way to report the findings to the NCAA and to figure out which self imposed sanctions are most appropriate?
What would be left for LW to do?
Buzz needs to let the investigation run it's course, and then HE needs to make
the right decision, based on the facts of the investigation. That's his job. LW's job is to lead Buzz to the right decision. If Buzz cant get to the right decision, he is in the wrong job. I have faith that Buzz is smart enough to get to the right decision.
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Agreed.....thus the frustration with LW. He had a lot of time to get this right.
What did he get wrong?
Does anybody disagree with firing an employee who repeatedly lies under these circumstances?
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An employee was found to be lying on a matter of compliance, an aspect of his job that is essential. Proper legal procedure is to call in an independent investigative counsel to determine just cause for termination (unlike Penn State), especially since the employee was hired by Buzz and is a friend. If there was a claim of sexual harassment, it would have been handled the same way. This protects the employer and they have grounds to say an independent group looked into it and recommended the action. This decision to dismiss was made by the independent counsel. MU and Buzz have cover, and MU has cause to void the employment contract.
This was determined weeks ago and we now are seeing the show. Stupid for a t shirt and the time and money spent. Monarch appears to have written his own ticket.
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Honestly, Parrish is almost as dumb as Skip Bayless. I've lost what little respect I had for Parrish over the past couple years.
+ a sideways 8. I'm not sure whose wife or boyfriend GP has pictures of, but you can't help but to sympathize for Jeff Goodman's position (being partnered with the guy.)
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How many times has Buzz said, "Wish I would have taken SMU", over the past few weeks?
I don't think Buzz would support Monarch on this one, and would side with LW. Thre is zero room these days for any dishonestly, misleading info, lack of cooperation. Monarch should have been fired.
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Don't forget that we're talking about a report of an investigation into Buzz's program. Until it was completed, MU didn't have any basis for forming an opinion on whether Buzz was a part of the initial infractions or was in on the coverup by Monarch. It had to be done by someone outside the program to have any legitimacy.
Agreed.
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What did he get wrong?
Does anybody disagree with firing an employee who repeatedly lies under these circumstances?
My only point is that this should have been announced as Buzz's decision, not, Buzz is announcing.
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I think Larry was in a must-fire situation withnthis. Yes its a smallminfraction, but if u dont do anything, where do youndraw the line? Whats Larry supposed to tell the investigators, "cmon, give us a break here guys?"
Nope. The AD was lied to and you simply cannot have that. Once that trust is gone, Monarch has to go.
Im not a fan of Larry, but his hands were tied. Its his job to think of the whole program and you cant turn a blind eye once the ncaa says a coach knowingly lied about breaking a rule. Its a small infraction but like most 'scandals', its not the crime, its the cover up. Or as my daddy always told me, "the worst thing you can do is not tell someone the WHOLE truth."
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My only point is that this should have been announced as Buzz's decision, not, Buzz is announcing.
And Buzz would have been accused of finding a fall guy (his friend) to cover up his own mess. Now he has a legal cover by an outside law firm. Sounds better to me the way MU handled it.
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My only point is that this should have been announced as Buzz's decision, not, Buzz is announcing.
Disagree. LW is the AD, not Buzz. LW runs the show, not Buzz. If the announcement is from Buzz, it implies he runs things...which he does not.
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My only point is that this should have been announced as Buzz's decision, not, Buzz is announcing.
But it isn't, and shouldn't be, Buzz's decision. Allowing Buzz and the program to act as its own judge and jury can't lead anywhere good. Especially when we''re talking about the indiscretions of one of Buzz's longtime pals.
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He deserved to be fired and was. The AD needs to run the show and have power. Again, this is not a tshirt infraction. He broke the rules and got caught. Actually he was stupid for getting caught and should be fired simply for being caught.
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"By the way, Buzz Williams getting a suspension from his school b/c an assistant lied is the type of thing that makes men look at other jobs."
@GaryParrishCBS
By the way, being disgruntled at your employer for holding you accountable because your under-qualified best friend you hired as an assistant lied about an NCAA investigation is the type of thing that makes big time programs look at other coaches.
I love Buzz, but if he has a problem with this he isn't practicing what he's preaching. I just think Parrish has this one wrong.
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Disagree. LW is the AD, not Buzz. LW runs the show, not Buzz. If the announcement is from Buzz, it implies he runs things...which he does not.
Exactly. I would be surprised if Buzz wasn't involved in the decision - again, a seat at the table, so to speak - but this is an AD's call to ultimately make. Again, not enough information to know all that did or didn't transpire, so I'm not jumping to conclusions... good/bad/otherwise.
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But it isn't, and shouldn't be, Buzz's decision. Allowing Buzz and the program to act as its own judge and jury can't lead anywhere good. Especially when we''re talking about the indiscretions of one of Buzz's longtime pals.
It's a compliance issue. It has to come from the AD. Buzz can't announce the firing of his assistant and then turn around and have LW announce a one game suspension. That's silly.
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By the way, being disgruntled at your employer for holding you accountable because your under-qualified best friend you hired as an assistant lied about an NCAA investigation is the type of thing that makes big time programs look at other coaches.
I love Buzz, but if he has a problem with this he isn't practicing what he's preaching. I just think Parrish has this one wrong.
Yeah, this is why I think he should get more than one game. Its...just...squirmy...
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Disagree. LW is the AD, not Buzz. LW runs the show, not Buzz. If the announcement is from Buzz, it implies he runs things...which he does not.
Niv and Doc, I disagree, the Head Coach hires, the HC fires. Anything else implies he is not capable of managing his charge.
We all agree the right decision was made.
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Guys
Connect the dots. We had more game suspensions than ever before, Buzz chatted with SMU and has lost power. Game over on Buzz being the same Buzz he has been. He either toes the line or he moves on. They brass does not like Buzz's act and that is factual. Something has to give for Buzz to be here long term and I doubt if we get new president.
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Yeah, this is why I think he should get more than one game. Its...just...squirmy...
Still not seeing why Buzz should get more than one game. His missing any games is a self (self meaning school, not Buzz) imposed sanction, which is a more of a gesture to indicate the understanding that ultimately, the head coach is responsible for the conduct of his staff. But if Buzz knew nothing of Monarch's dishonesty along the way, why should he be punished? Monarch probably lied to him, too.
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MY GOD!!!!!
And Majerus is stepping down due to "heart issues." From SLU. And who does LW want us to turn into???
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Guys
Connect the dots. We had more game suspensions than ever before, Buzz chatted with SMU and has lost power. Game over on Buzz being the same Buzz he has been. He either toes the line or he moves on. They brass does not like Buzz's act and that is factual. Something has to give for Buzz to be here long term and I doubt if we get new president.
Goose, you may be spot on with the admin. If so, they should get it over with. Otherwise, treat the HC like he is the HC.
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MY GOD!!!!!
And Majerus is stepping down due to "heart issues." From SLU. And who does LW want us to turn into???
I assume Majerus "stepped down" so he could take over Buzz's job.
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Still not seeing why Buzz should get more than one game. His missing any games is a self (self meaning school, not Buzz) imposed sanction, which is a more of a gesture to indicate the understanding that ultimately, the head coach is responsible for the conduct of his staff. But if Buzz knew nothing of Monarch's dishonesty along the way, why should he be punished? Monarch probably lied to him, too.
Frankly...maybe I'm just annoyed with him. There are a lot of things I like about the guy...but there are things that really bother me. There just seems to be something....squirmy....about him.
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I assume Majerus "stepped down" so he could take over Buzz's job.
I'm kidding...it's in teal.
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Side note/question - the eff is Dangerous Don Walker writing this article again? Does Mu not have a beat writer at the Urinel Sentinel?
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MY GOD!!!!!
And Majerus is stepping down due to "heart issues." From SLU. And who does LW want us to turn into???
ND? Yep, Digger is a role model :D
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Real
Admin calls the shots and they determine direction of program. This deal just gives them more reasons to change directions. If similar issues continue we will be hoping we are SLU.
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Side note/question - the eff is Dangerous Don Walker writing this article again? Does Mu not have a beat writer at the Urinel Sentinel?
Exactly my thoughts. And just look at his JS profile picture it screams child molester.
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Side note/question - the eff is Dangerous Don Walker writing this article again? Does Mu not have a beat writer at the Urinel Sentinel?
I don't know what's worse, him or Platydouche writing MU articles.
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I'm kidding...it's in teal.
As was I, just too lazy to teal it and thought it was fairly obvious.
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Frankly...maybe I'm just annoyed with him. There are a lot of things I like about the guy...but there are things that really bother me. There just seems to be something....squirmy....about him.
OK, but that's not enough of a justification to say that he deserves more punishment. Sounds like a witch hunt to me.
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Real
Admin calls the shots and they determine direction of program. This deal just gives them more reasons to change directions. If similar issues continue we will be hoping we are SLU.
Don't disagree with you. Buzz was hired to be HC. He should know the rules, and run the program accordingly. If he is brought info that says a staff member strayed, HE should be making the right decision. If not, he is not the right leader.
An AD should be mentoring the HC's under his/her charge.
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Don't disagree with you. Buzz was hired to be HC. He should know the rules, and run the program accordingly. If he is brought info that says a staff member strayed, HE should be making the right decision. If not, he is not the right leader.
An AD should be mentoring the HC's under his/her charge.
That may be the case, but still, the statement-decision comes frorm the AD. It gives off a nasty stench if Buzz makes the announcement. people would be screaming for Buzz head and "cover up!!" and then he says, "oh yeah, im suspended a game too!" nope.
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Nothing squirmy about Buzz. Though he's learned to choose the right words for fuller effect in the recent years.
Squirmy is Crean. The self-aggrandizing, sycophantic, Joyce Meyer retweeting, Jeezy-following HC.
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Don't disagree with you. Buzz was hired to be HC. He should know the rules, and run the program accordingly. If he is brought info that says a staff member strayed, HE should be making the right decision. If not, he is not the right leader.
An AD should be mentoring the HC's under his/her charge.
I don't think you understand something. The entire basketball program was being investigated. Buzz can't lead the investigation into his own program.
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Real
If you think assistant strayed you are crazy. Buzz knows everything and that is why the problem.
77ncaachamps
Buzz is slick and loose lipped...bad combination if you have a boss.
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Nothing squirmy about Buzz. Though he's learned to choose the right words for fuller effect in the recent years.
Squirmy is Crean. The self-aggrandizing, sycophantic, Joyce Meyer retweeting, Jeezy-following HC.
Yeah...and you know what's worse? Dipsh*ts like you who keep bringing him up after he's been gone five years.
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Real
If you think assistant strayed you are crazy. Buzz knows everything and that is why the problem.
77ncaachamps
Buzz is slick and loose lipped...bad combination if you have a boss.
Yeah...this is what concerns me...and the administration obviously.
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Real
If you think assistant strayed you are crazy. Buzz knows everything and that is why the problem.
Unless you are accusing LW of lying about the results of a school initiated independent investigation into potential NCAA violations (Unimaginable under these circumstances), then you can't escape that fact that the investigation found no evidence of Buzz's knowledge of the violations or the lying about it by Monarch.
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Don't think it has been mentioned yet but does anybody have an idea who the recruit may be? Mainly wondering if it will affect this year's team or a player that is already signed on for next year.
Also, how many official visits do teams get per year?
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I sure hope we can get a new coach at Marquette who will never make a mistake, be 100% perfect in his conduct for his boss at all times, while simultaneously leading us to consistent NIT births.
There is "squirm" across the board in high major college basketball. Either you push up as far against that line as possible, perhaps at some schools cross it on occasion, or you turn into a non-factor, 2nd tier program.
Personally, I'd prefer MU to remain a high profile, Top 20 program and have a blemish or two on occasion, as opposed to being an NIT program that never has any issues. Ironically, MU very well could become that NIT program and still have issues. Mike Deane took us to that place 14 years ago.
At least Buzz doesn't go out and get wasted after games, cheat on his wife, and engage in other bad behavior.
The self righteous, holier than thou types are always the scariest when they get in a position of authority. We likely will see the outcome of such soon, should Buzz leave. Only way he doesn't leave is if his loyalty to his players/recruits just is too deep that he can't walk out on them. Bottom line...Buzz leaves...pretty sure you will see a lot of the 2013 class seek to transfer.
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I thought the wording at the beginning of the ESPN article was somewhat telling.
"Marquette coach Buzz Williams announced the dismissal of assistant Scott Monarch on Friday,"
LW did not have to allow Buzz to make that announcement, especially when Buzz himself is facing a suspension. So, I'm thinking that that was a smart move on LW's part to avoid having more suspicion fall upon Buzz. Class move.
Part of Buzz' punishment. Like writing on the blackboard 500 times, "I will not hire cheaters."
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I'm just worried that if LW chases Buzz away then hires his own nobody guy and he turns out to be a bad coach this team will be sent into dark ages.
Bingo
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This is bullsh*t. Monarch could've been let go quietly. How many schools let assistants go and we never know why? A tshirt and a ride home? That's illegal? That warrants a suspension of our head coach? You've got to be kidding me. I don't care if Buzz is "slick." I don't care if he's "loose lipped." These are not issues that affect the image of Marquette University in the least! I'd love to hear stories of the squeaky clean manner in which Larry Williams himself was recruited to ND. How did Lou Holtz, who has a statue on campus, manage to land Ricky Watters, Jerome Bettis, Zorich, (and Randy Moss by the way)? I guess all those guys were just dying to play in South Bend, Indiana.
This administration is quickly proving that it has an almost complete lack of understanding of Marquette University. We are not, and never will be Stanford, Duke, or even Fordham. We are a small school in an unattrative part of Milwaukee with a campus that doesn't even compare to Western Illinois. Our academics are solid, but that's about it. What we have is a slightly above average university with a great basketball program. I'm afraid what we are going to end up with is an average university with a crappy basketball program.
Remind me, was it 2004 when admissions went through the roof? Get a godd@mnned clue!!
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Honestly, I really think Buzz probably imposed the 1-game suspension himself. If it had come from administration, I really think it would have been more severe. Look at Buzz's track record over the past year: suspending Junior for UW, suspending DJO, all the half-game suspensions at WVU, my guess is that this is Buzz showing to his players that he isn't above his own rules.
Did he know what Monarch did? Probably not. Let's be honest, it wasn't a major infraction. I'd guess this kind of thing happens all the time and 99.99% of the time goes unmentioned and unnoticed. But somehow this one got out and Monarch made the cardinal sin of lying. Had he not lied, I'm sure he'd be here, get a little slap on the wrists, and Buzz wouldn't be facing any punishment. But because his employee, the guy he endorses, lied to administration, it changes things. There has to be a level of trust between administration, Buzz, and his subordinates.
I have no problem with any of this. Make no mistake, Monarch did NOT get fired for a t-shirt and a ride home. He was fired for lying about it, multiple times. And Buzz is not taking a (most likely self-imposed) suspension for a t-shirt and a ride home. He is taking it because a guy he is supposed to be in control of violated rules and more important lied about them. Monarch is fired to pay for his own sins, Buzz takes the game to show his players that he isn't above the rules he enforced over the past year.
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This is bullsh*t. Monarch could've been let go quietly. How many schools let assistants go and we never know why? A tshirt and a ride home? That's illegal?
Nothing is "illegal," but lying about it repeatedly means you lose your job.
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Why a Big East game? To the NCAA a game is a game. Any other school would have made it the first game of the season. Now this will be reported again at the beginning of 2013 in a game that is probably televised. Is LW trying to make sure the largest amount of people hear about this for the longest amount of time?
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Next Friday expect the announcement of the recruit's punishment.
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Is it possible the level of angst and punishment correlates to the high level and visibility of the recruit? What if Monarch effed up on his interaction with Diamond Stone or Kevin Looney? Not only would this potentially blow MU's chances with them (if found out), but other schools could surely scream foul claiming the hometown school has an unfair advantage.
Pure speculation.....like a lot of thoughts on this particular subject...but it shows a different nuance as a "minor" infraction surely would look more significant related to a major recruit.
In any event....compliance investigations and programs are supposed to be independent so I don't read much into a lw/bw rift on the process....the culture....maybe.
The dude lied and denied and got caught.....given the scrutiny on the program the past year, that makes it even worse (and more stupid, arrogant or both).
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I continue to get the impression that LW wants to push Buzz out the door and put his own stamp on the program. I'm afraid this will not end well for MU. On a related note, the endless drama that continues to surround this team is exhausting. What a soap opera.
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Next Friday expect the announcement of the recruit's punishment.
I'm thinking it's a public beheading.
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Honestly, I really think Buzz probably imposed the 1-game suspension himself. If it had come from administration, I really think it would have been more severe. Look at Buzz's track record over the past year: suspending Junior for UW, suspending DJO, all the half-game suspensions at WVU, my guess is that this is Buzz showing to his players that he isn't above his own rules.
Did he know what Monarch did? Probably not. Let's be honest, it wasn't a major infraction. I'd guess this kind of thing happens all the time and 99.99% of the time goes unmentioned and unnoticed. But somehow this one got out and Monarch made the cardinal sin of lying. Had he not lied, I'm sure he'd be here, get a little slap on the wrists, and Buzz wouldn't be facing any punishment. But because his employee, the guy he endorses, lied to administration, it changes things. There has to be a level of trust between administration, Buzz, and his subordinates.
I have no problem with any of this. Make no mistake, Monarch did NOT get fired for a t-shirt and a ride home. He was fired for lying about it, multiple times. And Buzz is not taking a (most likely self-imposed) suspension for a t-shirt and a ride home. He is taking it because a guy he is supposed to be in control of violated rules and more important lied about them. Monarch is fired to pay for his own sins, Buzz takes the game to show his players that he isn't above the rules he enforced over the past year.
Totally agree. Buzz probably suspended himself a game because he holds everyone to a certain level of responsibility. For him to not sit out a game makes the suspensions served by players this past year hypocritical.
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Monarch was fired because, once again, the cover up is worse than the crime. I can live with that. So far, Larry Williams reminds me of John Larroquette in 'Stripes'. Not the kind of AD I want. Not someone I would want to share a foxhole with. Anybody who has to make grandiose gestures to show that he is the boss is not much of a leader.
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Monarch forgot something very important. It's not the crime, it's the coverup that will always be your undoing.
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I sure hope we can get a new coach at Marquette who will never make a mistake, be 100% perfect in his conduct for his boss at all times, while simultaneously leading us to consistent NIT births.
There is "squirm" across the board in high major college basketball. Either you push up as far against that line as possible, perhaps at some schools cross it on occasion, or you turn into a non-factor, 2nd tier program.
Personally, I'd prefer MU to remain a high profile, Top 20 program and have a blemish or two on occasion, as opposed to being an NIT program that never has any issues. Ironically, MU very well could become that NIT program and still have issues. Mike Deane took us to that place 14 years ago.
At least Buzz doesn't go out and get wasted after games, cheat on his wife, and engage in other bad behavior.
The self righteous, holier than thou types are always the scariest when they get in a position of authority. We likely will see the outcome of such soon, should Buzz leave. Only way he doesn't leave is if his loyalty to his players/recruits just is too deep that he can't walk out on them. Bottom line...Buzz leaves...pretty sure you will see a lot of the 2013 class seek to transfer.
I think most logical fans (and even the admin) don't expect the coach to be perfect.
However, where we draw the line for what is "acceptable" is the point of differentiation.
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Unless you are accusing LW of lying about the results of a school initiated independent investigation into potential NCAA violations (Unimaginable under these circumstances), then you can't escape that fact that the investigation found no evidence of Buzz's knowledge of the violations or the lying about it by Monarch.
Exactly...
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Gary Parrish@GaryParrishCBS
"How many other coaches with back-to-back Sweet Sixteens you think would get a suspension from his own school for this? Zero, I'd bet."
Guess Gary Parrish is a member (the leader?) of the tin foil hat brigade. And a LW/Domer hater. Derp.
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So far, Larry Williams reminds me of John Larroquette in 'Stripes'. Not the kind of AD I want. Not someone I would want to share a foxhole with. Anybody who has to make grandiose gestures to show that he is the boss is not much of a leader.
Well put.
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This is a big reaction to small peas. Stupid to fire Monarch, imo. A suspension for Buzz? Absolutely stupid.
We should get rid of Larry Williams sooner rather than later.
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Put me in the camp of people who say this is the right thing to do.
The university has to be able to trust Buzz and the people for whom he vouches. Monarch is certainly in that camp.
Self-reporting of violations and setting up an independent investigation is a no-brainer here. This is small potatoes but we've seen some very high profile examples of what happens when a university brushes problems in the athletic department under the rug (see: Paterno, Penn State for the most extreme example).
Once the investigation happens and your guy lies multiple times, can you trust that guy again? If he lies about something small, what would he do if something really bad happens. He'd lie.
As 77 points out, Buzz has established a precedent for what happens when you break team rules: you get suspended. (See Junior @ Wisco, the crew @ WVU).
So should he be suspended for a non-conference game that we'll win by 30? Nope. Make it a Big East game. Make it one that counts. One of 16.
Assuming that this is LW imposed ignores the context of what is happening in big time athletics and the precedent Buzz has set for the team.
This is a good call. It preserves the culture of accountability. It keeps Buzz's ability to tell players and parents that he holds his players (no matter who), his coaches (even ones who are good friends) and most importantly himself to a high standard.
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This is a big reaction to small peas. Stupid to fire Monarch, imo. A suspension for Buzz? Absolutely stupid.
We should get rid of Larry Williams sooner rather than later.
i understand the thought, but there isn't a chance in hell after what just happened at PSU. an ad comes in and holds everyone accountable (not that i totally agree how he's gone about it), the university fires the ad for doing so (because they don't like how he's going about it, but it just looks like they don't like that he's doing it), and then if something goes wrong the university is in a royal mess for lack of oversight.
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An alternative scenario:
Monarch gives a ride/t-shirt to a recruit. Maybe he knew it was a violation, maybe he looks it up and says, oh crap.
Eventually someone asks him about what happened. He knows this is a minor "secondary" violation. It's a mistake, but certainly not something he's going to be fired over. But it gives his boss and the program a black eye .. so he does what a loyal guy does: he wants to sweep it under the rug. He misstates the facts and hopes it goes away.
But it doesn't. He sticks with his story for a while, but eventually does admit it, admits he's been covering it up.
My guess is Monarch's mistake, and his purposeful misstatements happen 20 times a week in D1 athletic departments across the US.
I'm afraid what we are going to end up with is an average university with a crappy basketball program.
I can't but think we're on our way.
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They brass does not like Buzz's act and that is factual.
I'm not sure you know what the word "factual" means. There are a group of people on this board that have fantasized a narrative and continue to spin new information to match as if it's fact. It's tiresome.
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Yeah...and you know what's worse? Dipsh*ts like you who keep bringing him up after he's been gone five years.
Excuse me. I'll be sure to lambast posters who bring up Dukiet, who's been gone 23 years!
In Buzz we (should) trust. Monarch was the man at fault; Buzz, being the head of the bkb program, takes a one game hit for "the lack of institutional control."
I'm over this episode, but the LW-BW relationship is definitely worth monitoring.
EDIT: Since this is considered a secondary violation, it does make me wonder what would happen if a more serious violation were to occur. Monarch's transgression = his firing, one game suspension of Buzz, loss of recruit visits
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I have only fantasized about Buzz building an elite program. Over the past year my only fantasy is us landing Looney, Stone, Nunn and any other stud Buzz thinks fits into his style. Hardly wish to spin anything negative to prove a point. Have stated on here dozens of times I hope everyone at MU loves Buzz. Last thing I want to spin is a make believe bad relationship.
Honestly I believe anyone that thinks all is well in Buzz/admin relationship is living in fantasy island. Again, I hope everyone can laugh at me in a year when Buzz signs extension and has Looney locked up.
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LW haters, if you stop using the "cause he's from ND, he can't be trusted" your arguments would go over much better...
The infraction is minor, the repeated lying is cause... people don't get fired for stupid mistakes, they get fired for lying about stupid mistakes....
aside - my wife says that she can stop watching all those damn "Real Housewives" programs and start following MU bball in the off-season with all the drama it generates...
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The head coach sets the tone. If he had said to his assistants "under no circumstance do I want you to lie if we are under investigation" it doesnt happen. The lie suggests Monarch or others within the program were willing to do what it takes to protect the Coach (not the University). If Buzz is pissed off, so be it. He can take his money and run. Kudos to Larry Williams.
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I agree with kudos to LW. I think he did right thing for the program.
Madtown---agreed on the LW being ND guy as reason to hate him. I have not heard anything great about him but being ND grad is not reason to bash him. Your wife is right on the drama. I am just glad we have a program elite venough to have guys posting late into a Friday night in August. The progam has some action and has people interested.
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Since this is considered a secondary violation, it does make me wonder what would happen if a more serious violation were to occur. Monarch's transgression = his firing, one game suspension of Buzz, loss of recruit visits
Again, the firing wasn't about the "secondary violation". It's about the fact that Monarch continued to lie about it and cover it up, rather than take one on the chin and owning up to it. The "transgression" for which Monarch ultimately was fired is the lying, which is not secondary or minor. It is a fireable offense and that's what happened. It's been stated, by LW himself, that had it really just been about the t-shirt and the transportation, Monarch probably would still be an assistant coach for the Marquette Men's Basketball team.
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Next Friday expect the announcement of the recruit's punishment.
I don't see the recruit getting punished. Think about it, if Monarch was caught in a lie, somebody had to be telling what really happened. Do you punish Monarch for lying, and then punish the recruit for telling the truth?
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I don't see the recruit getting punished. Think about it, if Monarch was caught in a lie, somebody had to be telling what really happened. Do you punish Monarch for lying, and then punish the recruit for telling the truth?
There is still a reruiting violation to atone for, though. Juan Anderson got suspended for something similar last year, I would not doubt this year's recruit faces a commensurate punishment. Monarch was fired for lying. If he had owned up to it at the outset, he probably would not have been fired but he would have had some sort of punishment - suspension from recruiting trips, sitting out a few games, etc.
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The most feared phrase in NCAA member athletic departments is "lack of institutional control."
Having a coach tell multiple lies regarding rules infractions - regardless of their severity - and then allowing that coach to get away with it screams "lack of institutional control." It screams "the tail wags the dog."
Unfortunately for Monarch, his dismissal was necessary on several levels.
FWIW, this could arguably lessen the chances of Buzz leaving after next year. Given what happened to Indiana after hiring Sampson and the way the NCAA came down on Penn State, coaches who've had NCAA issues may not be in such high demand. We mocked the Chicago Sun-Times in the spring when they reported Illinois wasn't interested in Buzz because of disciplinary problems, but maybe there was something to that. I'm sure Buzz would land a job if he chooses to leave MU, but clearly there's some stuff out there that would give programs a reason for pause.
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There is still a reruiting violation to atone for, though. Juan Anderson got suspended for something similar last year, I would not doubt this year's recruit faces a commensurate punishment. Monarch was fired for lying. If he had owned up to it at the outset, he probably would not have been fired but he would have had some sort of punishment - suspension from recruiting trips, sitting out a few games, etc.
But not if the recruit doesn't sign with us.
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Recruited athletes know the rules as well. So, expect the recruit to be identified and reprimanded. Posters are rippin' Larry. But, he's just the messenger. This entire fiasco speaks more to the philosophy of the athletic department and how it relates to the mission of the university. Rican nailed it. We're a solid (albeit middle of the road) university whose identity, it has been decided, should lie more with scholars and the mission of righting the world's wrongs, and not with sports. To elevate needs more than a $300 million endowment. This is not Duke, ND, Georgetown, or Stanford where you can have it all. I think the line is becoming clearly drawn in the sand. Buzz can either follow in lockstep or leave. Expect a coaching change when the next great job comes a callin'.
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This whole offseason is a fiasco, Probably Buzzs last year here..
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It's like Bill Clinton. He wasn't going to get impeached for getting a hummer in the oval office from Monica. It's the lie and cover up.
MU had no choice but to fire monarch.
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Monarch was fired because, once again, the cover up is worse than the crime. I can live with that. So far, Larry Williams reminds me of John Larroquette in 'Stripes'. Not the kind of AD I want. Not someone I would want to share a foxhole with. Anybody who has to make grandiose gestures to show that he is the boss is not much of a leader.
+1. My point all along.
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The most feared phrase in NCAA member athletic departments is "lack of institutional control."
Having a coach tell multiple lies regarding rules infractions - regardless of their severity - and then allowing that coach to get away with it screams "lack of institutional control." It screams "the tail wags the dog."
Unfortunately for Monarch, his dismissal was necessary on several levels.
FWIW, this could arguably lessen the chances of Buzz leaving after next year. Given what happened to Indiana after hiring Sampson and the way the NCAA came down on Penn State, coaches who've had NCAA issues may not be in such high demand. We mocked the Chicago Sun-Times in the spring when they reported Illinois wasn't interested in Buzz because of disciplinary problems, but maybe there was something to that. I'm sure Buzz would land a job if he chooses to leave MU, but clearly there's some stuff out there that would give programs a reason for pause.
Jump to conclusions much? And you really exhibit your ignorance here by even raising the possibility that some programs out there would have pause with bringing Buzz in as their head coach. We'll see next off season just how many teams are rumored to be after Buzz - I suspect it will be an all time high, as clearly many programs now know things are definitely all good with Buzz at MU. He's ripe for the picking. And all due to chicken little crap blown WAY out of proportion.
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Jump to conclusions much? And you really exhibit your ignorance here by even raising the possibility that some programs out there would have pause with bringing Buzz in as their head coach. We'll see next off season just how many teams are rumored to be after Buzz - I suspect it will be an all time high, as clearly many programs now know things are definitely all good with Buzz at MU. He's ripe for the picking. And all due to chicken little crap blown WAY out of proportion.
Tell me you didn't just start a post with "Jump to conclusions much?" and then spend the rest of the post jumping to conclusions.
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Honestly I believe anyone that thinks all is well in Buzz/admin relationship is living in fantasy island.
I don't have any problem with you believing that. I have a problem with calling it factual.
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Recruited athletes know the rules as well. So, expect the recruit to be identified and reprimanded. Posters are rippin' Larry. But, he's just the messenger. This entire fiasco speaks more to the philosophy of the athletic department and how it relates to the mission of the university. Rican nailed it. We're a solid (albeit middle of the road) university whose identity, it has been decided, should lie more with scholars and the mission of righting the world's wrongs, and not with sports. To elevate needs more than a $300 million endowment. This is not Duke, ND, Georgetown, or Stanford where you can have it all. I think the line is becoming clearly drawn in the sand. Buzz can either follow in lockstep or leave. Expect a coaching change when the next great job comes a callin'.
If you are right, I don't see that entirely as a negative.
Basketball is a fantastic revenue and marketing tool for MU. However, success in basketball cannot be a primary mission for MU. If/when it ever is, then decisions get made based upon if it helps the program vs. is it the right thing to do.
I don't have any inside knowledge of this specific situation, but philosophically, I'm fine with the Admin. being concerned more with "right" than they are with wins.
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If you are right, I don't see that entirely as a negative.
Basketball is a fantastic revenue and marketing tool for MU. However, success in basketball cannot be a primary mission for MU. If/when it ever is, then decisions get made based upon if it helps the program vs. is it the right thing to do.
I don't have any inside knowledge of this specific situation, but philosophically, I'm fine with the Admin. being concerned more with "right" than they are with wins.
Best post in this thread. We are fooling ourselves if we think for even one second this board knows better than the athletics department, office of the president and board of directors.
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Tell me you didn't just start a post with "Jump to conclusions much?" and then spend the rest of the post jumping to conclusions.
Good point, though I'm pretty sure the conclusions I've drawn will be far more likely to become a reality than those put forth by Pakuni. To suggest Buzz won't be highly coveted by other schools due to these minor issues is ridiculous.
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Recruited athletes know the rules as well. So, expect the recruit to be identified and reprimanded. Posters are rippin' Larry. But, he's just the messenger. This entire fiasco speaks more to the philosophy of the athletic department and how it relates to the mission of the university. Rican nailed it. We're a solid (albeit middle of the road) university whose identity, it has been decided, should lie more with scholars and the mission of righting the world's wrongs, and not with sports. To elevate needs more than a $300 million endowment. This is not Duke, ND, Georgetown, or Stanford where you can have it all. I think the line is becoming clearly drawn in the sand. Buzz can either follow in lockstep or leave. Expect a coaching change when the next great job comes a callin'.
This entire board expects a coaching change after every season. Don't think that's ever going to change.
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Personally, I am fine with the firing of Monarch and suspending Buzz for one game; they broke the rules and got caught.
As a result (and best case scenario), Buzz replaces Monarch with a better assistant coach.
If Buzz decides he no longer likes the culture established by MU under LW and decides to move on after this season, God bless him and I'll wish him well.
In addition, I'll thank him for keeping MU basketball competitive.
In the end, MU and its basketball team will continue to exist and I will continue to support the institution and its teams.
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Personally, I am fine with the firing of Monarch and suspending Buzz for one game; they broke the rules and got caught.
As a result (and best case scenario), Buzz replaces Monarch with a better assistant coach.
If Buzz decides he no longer likes the culture established by MU under LW and decides to move on after this season, God bless him and I'll wish him well.
In addition, I'll thank him for keeping MU basketball competitive.
It wasn't "they", it was Monarch. HUGE difference.
In the end, MU and its basketball team will continue to exist and I will continue to support the institution and its teams.
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Didn't Izzo get suspended a game due to a minor violation in the Dawson recruitment? Did he commit the violation resulting in the suspension and that's how it would be different? Also, didn't Calhoun have a suspension for major violations, but his suspension kicked in during the Big East season. Maybe there's a rule or precedent.
It's not like our first game this year is a walk-over. It's the Ohio State carrier game. I'd almost rather him be suspended for the Big East opener than the carrier game. More people will probably watch the carrier game, and it's a chance for a very quality non-conference win.
Edit to add: The part I don't like is the Gary Parrish tweet. He's close with Jeff Goodman who is close to Buzz, and the fact that he would bring up this instance is something that pushes people away scares me a little bit.
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Fully expect Buzz to move on for the next decent job--especially one in the SEC. Then LW can hire his "own guy"...and we can look forward to multiple NIT runs. But hey, at least 'ol Larry will have a coach he's comfortable with.
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Didn't Izzo get suspended a game due to a minor violation in the Dawson recruitment? Did he commit the violation resulting in the suspension and that's how it would be different? Also, didn't Calhoun have a suspension for major violations, but his suspension kicked in during the Big East season. Maybe there's a rule or precedent.
Izzo was suspended in 2010 because the Spartans employed an Individual Associated With a Prospect (IAWP) during a summer camp. (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/19943/tom-izzos-suspension-highlights-new-rule)
Apparently Izzo was "ticked off" (http://www.mlive.com/spartans/index.ssf/2010/12/michigan_states_tom_izzo_ticke.html) about the suspension, too.
Calhoun was suspended for three games (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6146656) because of recruiting violations:
The NCAA and the school have been investigating the program since shortly after a report by Yahoo! Sports in March 2009 that former team manager Josh Nochimson helped guide recruit Nate Miles to Connecticut, giving him lodging, transportation, meals and representation.
As a former team manager, Nochimson is considered a representative of UConn's athletic interests by the NCAA and prohibited from giving Miles anything of value.
"We cited the head coach for not being on top of these issues with the agent, the booster," Thomas said. "The head coach stated that the booster was a member of the family during his days as team manager."
The school said it found that the basketball staff exchanged more than 1,400 calls and 1,100 text messages with Nochimson between June 2005 and December 2008.
Members of the coaching staff also provided 32 impermissible complimentary tickets to individuals responsible for teaching or directing activities with prospective student-athletes.
Also, Pat Forde wrote an interesting piece (http://sports.espn.go.com/blog/CollegeBasketballNation/post/_/id/23883/the-cult-of-the-head-coach-slowly-dying) about the topic of head coaches and accountability in the wake of Calhoun's suspension.
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If Buzz is pissed(unlikely) because the suspension is entirely overboard and doesn't fit the crime, then half the team that was suspended at some point last year can be equally pissed at Buzz.
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Best post in this thread. We are fooling ourselves if we think for even one second this board knows better than the athletics department, office of the president and board of directors.
We are NOT fooling ourselves. What you're saying is that these people "know better than you." Are you that much of a yes man? Whoever is in charge...including the BOTs, who've proven themselves buffoons...are smarter than you? That Pilarz, who's led an admittedly admirable mission in his life, isn't a sheltered "academic?" we have people discussing the mission of Marquette because of their bankrolls, not their intelligence or ability to think strategically. Marquette has never been an institution led by "leaders." The powers that be are a group of followers. Now, we've got a bunch of newcomers telling us what we should be? What the hell is the matter with what we are!?
There is exactly one thing that all alumni and other stakeholders can unite behind and it's the basketball team. It drives applications, donations, season ticket sales, etc. Do you think moving from 70th ot 35th in US News and World Report is going to mean a goddamnned thing at the end of the day? All it means is Pilarz can get a better seat at the Jesuit convention. And speaking of better seats, if this noose tightening continues at MU, I wouldn't be surprised to see us playing at The Al.
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Lets forget about academic experience for a minute.
From a management experience standpoint, Pilarz came to us from Scranton. Larry Williams from Portland. These are the guys currently at the controls of the charter.
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Also to piggyback on what PRN said, it's a big part of the student experience, not just alumni. Maybe because I'm a big sports fan and so are my friends, but the early part of the school year was spent counting down to the start of basketball season. I loved my time at Marquette, but nothing on campus created the buzz or unity on campus like the basketball team. We don't have a football team and using Madison as a comparison, they have the Halloween party and Mifflin Block Party to get students fired up. I feel a sub-par basketball team would definitely impact the excitement of being a student at Marquette.
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The part that I found most interesting in Pat Forde's piece about accountability (http://sports.espn.go.com/blog/CollegeBasketballNation/post/_/id/23883/the-cult-of-the-head-coach-slowly-dying) in the wake of the Calhoun suspension was this:
Dennis Thomas, chairman of the Committee on Infractions, tried his best not to say much on a teleconference announcing UConn’s penalties Tuesday. But one point that came through rather clearly was that a head coach is responsible for keeping his program clean, and ignorance is no defense.
“This is something that a head coach should know about and ensure that everyone is in compliance,” Thomas said of the improper benefits, contacts and agent dealings UConn had in its recruitment of Miles. “And that didn’t happen. … This situation specifically dealt with issues the head coach should have known about.”
The other part that I found interesting was regarding penalties and how things have changed since 2009:
When Kentucky went down in flames in the late 1980s, head coach Eddie Sutton shifted to Oklahoma State while assistant Dwane Casey was stuck with a five-year show-cause penalty that exiled him to coaching in Japan. When Louisville was hit with two probations in the 1990s, Denny Crum remained insulated while assistants Larry Gay and Scooter McCray were bounced out of the business.
There are plenty of other examples, including this UConn investigation. Two staffers were canned as collateral damage months ago, while Calhoun coached on unimpeded. But there was a penalty waiting for him here in February, at the end of the process.
That’s part of a shift in accountability that began in October 2009, according to those well-versed in NCAA policy and procedure. That’s when the NCAA Board of Directors, acting on recommendations from the Enforcement Department’s Basketball Focus Group, asked its Infractions Committee to get serious about penalties.
And that prominently includes penalties assessed to head coaches.
Letters of reprimand and other empty verbiage are out. Tangible sanctions are in.
The Southeastern Conference didn’t wait for the NCAA to put the clamps on Tennessee’s Bruce Pearl for lying to investigators. The conference office hit him with an eight-game SEC suspension this season. And now the NCAA has followed that lead and slapped Calhoun.
That’s despite the best efforts of UConn to protect him from NCAA Enforcement’s charge of failure “to promote an atmosphere of compliance.” The school fought the charge. The school lost.
If MU didn't suspend Buzz for a game, I would not have been surprised to see the NCAA have suspended him either for the first Big East game or the Carrier Classic based on the Izzo/Pearl/Calhoun disciplines. While this isn't at the level of Pearl or Calhoun, it seems fairly par (if you factor in the lying to investigators by Monarch) to what Izzo's situation was when it was all said and done.
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Jump to conclusions much? And you really exhibit your ignorance here by even raising the possibility that some programs out there would have pause with bringing Buzz in as their head coach. We'll see next off season just how many teams are rumored to be after Buzz - I suspect it will be an all time high, as clearly many programs now know things are definitely all good with Buzz at MU. He's ripe for the picking. And all due to chicken little crap blown WAY out of proportion.
If for just few minutes you unstrapped you Buzz colored glasses you might recognize that, in addition to the on court success of the last couple years, the program has also experienced:
- widely publicized sexual assault claims (plural) involving multiple players
- a very public reprimand of the university as a result of how it handled those claims
- multiple players facing minor criminal charges
- multiple player suspensions
- the firing of a coach for lying about recruiting violations
- the suspension of a head coach related to a recruiting violation
- national criticism for the handling of DJ Newbill's situation
- a player suspended for violating NCAA rules
It's entirely within your prerogative to say these are a string of minor and unrelated incidents/irrelevant/a price you're willing to pay for the greatness that comes with making the Sweet 16.
But if you think that in a post-Penn State era athletic departments aren't going to take a good hard look at these things and, yes, take pause, you're living in a fantasyland.
You know, the kind of fantasyland where the Chicago Tribune news department schemes to take down Marquette basketball as a favor to DePaul, and where Buzz Williams sends individual fans coded messages by email.
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Lets forget about academic experience for a minute.
From a management experience standpoint, Pilarz came to us from Scranton. Larry Williams from Portland. These are the guys currently at the controls of the charter.
Says a wise man who ripped Marquette for hiring a guy whose previous head coaching experience was at the University of New Orleans.
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There is exactly one thing that all alumni and other stakeholders can unite behind and it's the basketball team. It drives applications, donations, season ticket sales, etc. Do you think moving from 70th ot 35th in US News and World Report is going to mean a goddamnned thing at the end of the day? All it means is Pilarz can get a better seat at the Jesuit convention. And speaking of better seats, if this noose tightening continues at MU, I wouldn't be surprised to see us playing at The Al.
You really, truly, think the the utterly basic arithmetic you've described above isn't entirely known by the president, athletic department and BOT? You're convinced that "good basketball" = "more applications" is an equation only you and the posters on this board are aware of?
I'd be curious to now how much you've studied this. What is the application and revenue growth for a university that makes the sweet 16? Elite eight? After 2003, when Marquette saw a huge increase in applications, what was the rest of the market doing? Were other schools, not associated with a final four, also experiencing a surge of applications?
Do you think, at any level, there is ANY information the board and president have access to that you've not considered?
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Says a wise man who ripped Marquette for hiring a guy whose previous head coaching experience was at the University of New Orleans.
That's true!
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I feel a sub-par basketball team would definitely impact the excitement of being a student at Marquette.
No one would argue otherwise. Not me, not PRN, not the doofus board of trustees. No one.
I'm not arguing a strong basketball team isn't incredible marketing and strong community building. I'm saying that's obvious—thinking the posters on this board have somehow considered more angles and reviewed more data on this than the people who's job it is is kinda nutty.
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Do you think, at any level, there is ANY information the board and president have access to that you've not considered?
No, I don't. Nothing relevant anyway. These references to "the board" are laughable. You think because a guy sold a bunch of Hummers that he's some kind of sage administrator? How about a shoe salesman? The coach of the Boston Celtics?
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Lets forget about academic experience for a minute.
From a management experience standpoint, Pilarz came to us from Scranton. Larry Williams from Portland. These are the guys currently at the controls of the charter.
What does this even mean?
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No, I don't. Nothing relevant anyway. These references to "the board" are laughable. You think because a guy sold a bunch of Hummers that he's some kind of sage administrator? How about a shoe salesman? The coach of the Boston Celtics?
Good god I wish I had your confidence.
You don't think having a coach of a major basketball franchise gives them any insight into the industry? Is there any experience you consider valuable? Does founding and steering successful businesses impart no wisdom?
I do not think the board is infallible, but let's ignore them for a second. You do not think there is any shred of market research the Marquette has done that you do not have insight into?
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It's like Bill Clinton. He wasn't going to get impeached for getting a hummer in the oval office from Monica. It's the lie and cover up.
MU had no choice but to fire monarch.
Sounds like Monarch didn't just lie. When pressed on it, he lied and lied again and lied some more. He made his own bed.
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No, I don't. Nothing relevant anyway. These references to "the board" are laughable. You think because a guy sold a bunch of Hummers that he's some kind of sage administrator? How about a shoe salesman? The coach of the Boston Celtics?
Yeah...they're no "random message board poster." That's for sure.
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Didn't Izzo get suspended a game due to a minor violation in the Dawson recruitment? Did he commit the violation resulting in the suspension and that's how it would be different? Also, didn't Calhoun have a suspension for major violations, but his suspension kicked in during the Big East season. Maybe there's a rule or precedent.
I hear the severity of the suspension was based on similar situations like the Dawson recruitment. The punishment is in line with 3-4 similar cases.
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Gary Parrish is very tight with Buzz. As tight as Goodman.
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Lets forget about academic experience for a minute.
From a management experience standpoint, Pilarz came to us from Scranton. Larry Williams from Portland. These are the guys currently at the controls of the charter.
Says a wise man who ripped Marquette for hiring a guy whose previous head coaching experience was at the University of New Orleans.
That's true!
You, sir, are no Scott Monarch!
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Who's going to be our new head coach in '13-14?
Probably some Domer assistant.
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I can't figure out what everyone is so upset about- it was a trivial violation but the guy lied. Termination sounds reasonable to me. The suspension of Buzz was probably to get the NCAA off our back. Sounds reasonable to me. What's the big deal?
I know there are some who think if somebody looks at Buzz the wrong way, he'll take the next job in Boondock Texas. Well if that's the case Adios Amigo. Buzz seems a little tougher than that.
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Buzz has said many times it's not about the money and Don't screw with happy. I believe him and that is why I'm worried. LW would jump to a football in a second and Buzz has passed on how many jobs. I feel like LW is padding his resume as a tough guy and MU is the fall guy. Dump him, know when you made a bad hire, they do it with coachs all the time.
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Buzz has said many times it's not about the money and Don't screw with happy. I believe him and that is why I'm worried. LW would jump to a football in a second and Buzz has passed on how many jobs. I feel like LW is padding his resume as a tough guy and MU is the fall guy. Dump him, know when you made a bad hire, they do it with coachs all the time.
Wow, what would the NCAA make of that? Would they think that boosters run the basketball program? And that institutional control is being passed to them (the boosters)?
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Buzz has said many times it's not about the money and Don't screw with happy. I believe him and that is why I'm worried. LW would jump to a football in a second and Buzz has passed on how many jobs. I feel like LW is padding his resume as a tough guy and MU is the fall guy. Dump him, know when you made a bad hire, they do it with coachs all the time.
How do you know that LW would "jump to football?"
Reading the Forde article made me feel better about the Buzz suspension. I think the NCAA is making this par for the course when assistants are the ones who are the violators. The fact that the NCAA worked with MU on this leads me to believe that it was suggested that this occur.
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Reading the Forde article made me feel better about the Buzz suspension.
You're welcome. Glad I could add some value your way for a change, Sultan ;)
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You're welcome. Glad I could add some value your way for a change, Sultan ;)
Lol...thank you. Honestly, I read it...but forgot who posted the link. Sorry that I didn't attribute!
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No worries, Sultan. You've given me far more information on here than I could ever provide being a non-insider.
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True, Buzz has said you shouldn't mess with happy....but he's in a different situation now. He's surrounded by new people. If any of us found ourselves in a negative environment...it's safe to say the vast majority would leave if an enticing offer presented itself. From where I'm sitting, it looks like LW wants his own guy. And if that happens, MU will have one less fan. I graduated from MU, but I won't blindly support the athletic program if they insist on making bonehead moves. If that makes me an awful alum, so be it.
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Here's the braintrust, for anyone too lazy to look themselves:
Ms. Natalie A. Black
Law '78, Senior Vice President and Chief Legal Officer, Kohler Co.
Mr. John F. Ferraro
Vice Chair of the Marquette Board, Bus Ad '77, Global Chief Operating Officer, Ernst & Young
Rev. James P. Flaherty, S.J.,
Arts '78, President, Nativity Jesuit Middle School
Mr. Richard J. Fotsch
Eng '77, Grad '84, President, Global Power Group, Kohler Co.
Rev. James G. Gartland, S.J.,
Rector, Blessed Peter Faber Jesuit Community, Boston College
Mr. Darren R. Jackson
Bus Ad '86, President and Chief Executive Officer, Advance Auto Parts
Mr. James F. Janz
Bus Ad '62, Law '64, Managing Director, Joseph and Vera Zilber Family Foundation
Rev. Timothy R. Lannon, S.J.
President, Creighton University
Rev. Thomas A. Lawler, S.J.
Provincial, Wisconsin Province of the Society of Jesus
Mr. John P. Lynch
Arts '64, Retired Senior Partner, Latham & Watkins
Mr. Alfred C. McGuire
Arts '73, Retired Senior Vice President, Fidelity Investments
Dr. Arnold L. Mitchem
Grad '81, President, Council for Opportunity in Education
Rev. Joseph M. O'Keefe, S.J.
Professor of Education, Boston College
Mr. James D. O'Rourke
Bus Ad '87, Chief Executive Officer, A&A Manufacturing Company
Dr. Janis M. Orlowski
Eng '78, Chief Operating Officer and Chief Medical Officer, MedStar Washington Hospital Center
Rev. Scott R. Pilarz, S.J.
President, Marquette University
Ms. Kristine A. Rappé
Senior Vice President and Chief Administrative Officer, Wisconsin Energy Corporation
Mr. Glenn A. Rivers
Arts '85, Head Coach, Boston Celtics
Hon. W. Greg Ryberg
Arts '68, Senator, State of South Carolina
Ms. Mary Ellen Stanek
Vice Chair of the Marquette Board, Arts '78, Managing Director and Director of Asset Management, Robert W. Baird & Company
Mr. Charles M. Swoboda
Chair of the Marquette Board, Eng '89, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Cree Inc.
Ms. Cherryl T. Thomas
Arts '68, President and Chief Executive Officer, Ardmore Associates, LLC
Mr. Benjamin S. Tracy
Comm '98, Grad '04, National Correspondent, CBS News
Ms. Peggy Troy
Nurs '74, President and Chief Executive Officer, Children’s Hospital and Health System
Ms. Rhona Vogel
Bus Ad '76, Chief Executive Officer, Vogel Consulting Group
Mr. James M. Weiss
Arts '68, President, Weiss Capital Management, Inc.
Mr. Thomas H. Werner
Eng '86, President, CEO, and Chairman of the Board, SunPower Corporation
Rev. Michael A. Zampelli, S.J.
Rector, Santa Clara Jesuit Community and Associate Professor of Theatre and Dance, Santa Clara University
Ms. Anne A. Zizzo
Jour '87, President, Zizzo Group Marketing + Public Relations + New Media
Emeriti Trustees
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Mr. Alfred C. McGuire
Arts '73, Retired Senior Vice President, Fidelity Investments
Yeah...these f*ckers don't know anything about basketball and what it means to Marquette.
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Article says Buzz knew no knowledge of the investigation and Monarch was not being forthright on multiple occasions. I side with LW on the Monarch firing. I'm not sure if Buzz knew nothing of it, why he has to be suspended a Big East game.
hat Buzz
I think Buzz had no knowledge of the violation. He would of known about the investigation. Self impossed penalties are designed to appeased the NCAA. Make them to soft and NCAA imposes their own. I agree that Buzz is accountable for who he hires. I think the first Big East game suspension makes more sense than to suspend him for the first game against Ohio St.
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F*ckin', thought for sure, dude, your name would be on it.
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hat Buzz
I think Buzz had no knowledge of the violation. He would of known about the investigation. Self impossed penalties are designed to appeased the NCAA. Make them to soft and NCAA imposes their own. I agree that Buzz is accountable for who he hires. I think the first Big East game suspension makes more sense than to suspend him for the first game against Ohio St.
If the player is who I have been told who it is, I have a hard time believing that Buzz knew nothing. Now, I might be wrong...
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If Buzz knew nothin', Larry should can his heine since he obviously isn't payin' attention to his job.
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Yeah...these f*ckers don't know anything about basketball and what it means to Marquette.
I called them the braintrust, not f*ckers. I'm f*ckin. I can see where the confusion comes from. ;D
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F*ckin', thought for sure, dude, your name would be on it.
you, me, MuMac and PRN could do some serious good work on the BOT.
Shouldn't you be the token? Dentist that is. ;D
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Niv and Doc, I disagree, the Head Coach hires, the HC fires. Anything else implies he is not capable of managing his charge.
We all agree the right decision was made.
The suit against Minnesota was just dismissed, Tubby Smith offered an assistants job to someone, who quit his other job and ended up not getting the assistant's job at Minnesota. He sued the University, but the judge ruled that Smith could not offer the contract for the University of Minnesota and threw out the suit, so this case is a good indication that Buzz cannot hire or fire assistant coaches. He can only recommend to the athletic director to hire or fire someone. No different than offering a recruit a scholarship. The recruit still has to be admitted by the University. Buzz has influence, but not as much power as some of you are saying.
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My belief is that it was a case about "at will". However, if you are correct, then the MU deal and how it was rolled out makes a bit more sense. Thanks for sharing.
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The suit against Minnesota was just dismissed, Tubby Smith offered an assistants job to someone, who quit his other job and ended up not getting the assistant's job at Minnesota. He sued the University, but the judge ruled that Smith could not offer the contract for the University of Minnesota and threw out the suit, so this case is a good indication that Buzz cannot hire or fire assistant coaches. He can only recommend to the athletic director to hire or fire someone. No different than offering a recruit a scholarship. The recruit still has to be admitted by the University. Buzz has influence, but not as much power as some of you are saying.
I'd think a state university would have different hiring and firing procedures than a private school, just due to the nature of government employment.
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I think we're probably at the point where everybody -- Buzz, Larry, the BOT -- is ready for Buzz to move on. And it might be for the best for everyone involved.
It wouldn't be best for the program if Buzz moved on, and not sure why anybody would think so.
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The most feared phrase in NCAA member athletic departments is "lack of institutional control."
Having a coach tell multiple lies regarding rules infractions - regardless of their severity - and then allowing that coach to get away with it screams "lack of institutional control." It screams "the tail wags the dog."
Unfortunately for Monarch, his dismissal was necessary on several levels.
FWIW, this could arguably lessen the chances of Buzz leaving after next year. Given what happened to Indiana after hiring Sampson and the way the NCAA came down on Penn State, coaches who've had NCAA issues may not be in such high demand. We mocked the Chicago Sun-Times in the spring when they reported Illinois wasn't interested in Buzz because of disciplinary problems, but maybe there was something to that. I'm sure Buzz would land a job if he chooses to leave MU, but clearly there's some stuff out there that would give programs a reason for pause.
Yes, and Kentucky had reason for pause before hiring Calipari, whose 2 previous schools ended up in hot water with the NCAA.
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There is exactly one thing that all alumni and other stakeholders can unite behind and it's the basketball team. It drives applications, donations, season ticket sales, etc.
You are 100% correct.
However, an academic institution has to be careful about inserting athletic success (specifically winning) as part of it's mission.
Once you go down that road, you create a culture where you are willing to sacrifice "right" for the "good of the program". I'm not saying that everything is absolutely black and white, but the MU Administration cannot drink the kool aid, and need to remain objective, even if it hurts in the short run. It just has to be that way.
Honestly, Penn State is the perfect poster child for a school who inserted winning into it's mission statement and culture, and thus decisions were made based upon if it would help/hurt the program. Once that culture takes hold, it's a hard habit to break.
Also, what is with all of the Pilarz and LW hate? We haven't even seen these dudes long enough to know much about them, yet some are ready to run them out? Maybe Monarch should know the rules, then he wouldn't be fired. That's not Pilarz and LW's fault.
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What is with people bringing up Penn State? Are you out of your minds? Giving a kid a ride home and a t-shirt is hardly akin to turning the other way when one of your assistants is boofing little boys in your locker room. Let's get some perspective!
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You are 100% correct.
However, an academic institution has to be careful about inserting athletic success (specifically winning) as part of it's mission.
Once you go down that road, you create a culture where you are willing to sacrifice "right" for the "good of the program". I'm not saying that everything is absolutely black and white, but the MU Administration cannot drink the kool aid, and need to remain objective, even if it hurts in the short run. It just has to be that way.
Honestly, Penn State is the perfect poster child for a school who inserted winning into it's mission statement and culture, and thus decisions were made based upon if it would help/hurt the program. Once that culture takes hold, it's a hard habit to break.
Also, what is with all of the Pilarz and LW hate? We haven't even seen these dudes long enough to know much about them, yet some are ready to run them out? Maybe Monarch should know the rules, then he wouldn't be fired. That's not Pilarz and LW's fault.
+1
C'mon guys. Monarch made his own bed. I refuse to believe Buzz believes the university should have looked the other way. This is 1/1,000,000th of what has happened at other schools where sports became the 'reason we exist'. Obviously Penn State is by far and away the most serious example. But I'm not going down that slippery slope. Look at it this way, Scott Monarch perjured himself during an official investigation. Freakin' case closed.
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It's not about the t-shirt, it's not about Buzz, it's not about Monarch. It's about culture of the school and fans.
PRN, You implied that the MU admin doesn't care enough about winning basketball games:
Basketball is a huge part of MU, and it's very,very important. But, the upper-management at MU cannot make winning games part of MU's mission. MU is an academic institution, and decisions need to be made through that prism.
Once you start making decisions so you can win more games, it creates a culture where winning becomes a too much of a priority and it's hard to make the "right" decision if it has a negative impact on the program.
Penn State is an extreme example of this culture gone wrong for about 50 years. Obv. MU isn't going to have a big problem overnight, but I still want the President to do what is right, not what wins games.
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It kind of has been a systematic dismantling of at least the basketball we came to know and enjoy the past decade.
Fr. Wild is out Pilarz comes in. Fires Cottingham, things get dicey (put nicely) with Buzz and his staff. MU had a chance to become elite which is achieved through the retention of top flight coaches.
Now Pilarz may be ensuring our cap is Xavier, with top level coaches not getting desired support from administration.
If Pilarz doesn't get Buzz's replacement right he's DiIulio part deux. Kinda sad, considering all the work Wild put in to getting the team on top and secure in conference alignment.
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I hope that we make decisions, in sync with the school's mission, that include a vision of us as NCAA champs consistently. Academic and Athletic excellence should be very compatible. As long both are achieved in a manner that is in alignment with our values.
From what I can tell, MU does an excellent job of making it CRYSTAL clear what the rules are for NCAA compliance. In a different thread (too lazy to find it), another scoop member posted a link to a very well done MU created pamphlet on NCAA regs.
I will give Monarch the benefit of the doubt....that he is well intended. However, he crossed a line, and is paying the price. With the amount of emphasis the school places on clarity of expectations on NCAA regs......starting to beat a dead horse.
I am hopeful that this is all a well thought out strategy, that has the ultimate goal of MU being NC's in the next two years.
We really wont know until a year from now how well this was handled. Next August, we will either be lamenting the selection process for our new HC, or be elated with our singing of Stone, Looney, et al.
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Yes, and Kentucky had reason for pause before hiring Calipari, whose 2 previous schools ended up in hot water with the NCAA.
My computer must being acting up, because it's telling me you're comparing Buzz Williams with John Calipari who, when hired by Kentucky, was a two-time national coach of the year with two Final Fours, three Elite Eights and two Sweet Sixteens.
Do I need to call the repairman?
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Buzz has said many times it's not about the money and Don't screw with happy. I believe him and that is why I'm worried. LW would jump to a football in a second and Buzz has passed on how many jobs. I feel like LW is padding his resume as a tough guy and MU is the fall guy. Dump him, know when you made a bad hire, they do it with coachs all the time.
Your exactly right. It is time for MU to part ways with Larry Williams.
For those of you who dont follow SEC Sports, Nick Saban committed 29!! Yes 29!! Violations in the past year and I dont think the AD is suspending him for any games or firing any assistant coaches.
O IMHO this Chernoyble we are having is probably going to turn out to be a mere 3 Mile Island. As long as Buzz keeps winning their is no way that LW can fire him, and if Buzz goes to a lesser job than LW becomes public enemy #1 and we he burns at the PR stake essentially.
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What is with people bringing up Penn State? Are you out of your minds? Giving a kid a ride home and a t-shirt is hardly akin to turning the other way when one of your assistants is boofing little boys in your locker room. Let's get some perspective!
I was about to say the same thing. This is 1,000,000,000,000,000 Times more minor than PSU
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The point of the PSU comparisons are that it is an extreme example of what you get when you let athletics run the show....not that the violations are comparable. I have been saying this for awhile...the times are gone where the coach runs the show. The coach need to operate within the limits set by the AD and the institution.
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The point of the PSU comparisons are that it is an extreme example of what you get when you let athletics run the show....not that the violations are comparable. I have been saying this for awhile...the times are gone where the coach runs the show. The coach need to operate within the limits set by the AD and the institution.
The issue of course is that not all institutions and AD's set the same limits. It appears MU is headed the direction that won't make it a coach/athletics friendly place - as it was under Father Wild.
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The point of the PSU comparisons are that it is an extreme example of what you get when you let athletics run the show....not that the violations are comparable. I have been saying this for awhile...the times are gone where the coach runs the show. The coach need to operate within the limits set by the AD and the institution.
This.
Also, I think college presidents are going to exploit the Penn State scandal (never let a good crisis go to waste, after all) to try to rein in some of the power athletic departments wield on campus. And that's probably a good thing.
One way of doing that is through the NCAA. The universal praise - outside State College, at least - the NCAA has received for hammering Penn State is only going to strengthen and embolden the organization.
Nobody is suggesting that Monarch's offense is anything remotely equivalent to what happened at Penn State or that MU would/could/should face a consequence 1/100,000 as severe. The point is, the landscape has changed dramatically, and universities need to tread much more carefully around the rules and act swiftly when rules are violated (as opposed to letting it go, because some believe lying over minor infractions should be allowed).
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The issue of course is that not all institutions and AD's set the same limits. It appears MU is headed the direction that won't make it a coach/athletics friendly place - as it was under Father Wild.
Not sure that I would say it isn't "friendly" toward athletics considering how money $$ they spend - I mean they just spent a ton of money hiring Chew in May. I think MU is willing to sacrifice some on-court success if it means getting rid of the negative headlines - and it is going to be up to Buzz to determine if he wants to operate within these constraints.
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Your exactly right. It is time for MU to part ways with Larry Williams.
For those of you who dont follow SEC Sports, Nick Saban committed 29!! Yes 29!! Violations in the past year and I dont think the AD is suspending him for any games or firing any assistant coaches.
O IMHO this Chernoyble we are having is probably going to turn out to be a mere 3 Mile Island. As long as Buzz keeps winning their is no way that LW can fire him, and if Buzz goes to a lesser job than LW becomes public enemy #1 and we he burns at the PR stake essentially.
What part of lying repeatedly when questioned did you miss. He would not have lost his job over this (assuming it is just this one incident) had he not come clean. Good grief, the violation is minor, we all know that. He lost his gig because he he was not man enough to tell the truth. Once you can't trust a dude its over.
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Any comparison whatsoever to Penn State is ludicrous. Remember the "Hitler" analogies seen on the internet that disgust all sane people? Same difference.
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Any comparison whatsoever to Penn State is ludicrous. Remember the "Hitler" analogies seen on the internet that disgust all sane people? Same difference.
Agreed.
Now show us where anyone compared this to Penn State.
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Any institution associated with the Roman Catholic Church should avoid all reference to anything "Penn State Scandal" related as that situation is a mere pimple compared to the skeletons still seeping from the church's closet. Fr. wild himself played the role of Joe Paterno in one such scandal.
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Agreed.
Now show us where anyone compared this to Penn State.
All right, how about any analagous referencing or referencing period? Still absurd.
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All right, how about any analagous referencing or referencing period? Still absurd.
Suggesting the way in which the NCAA and universities deal with athletic departments, and the way the public views athletic departments, has shifted in the wake of the Penn State scandal is not absurd.
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Suggesting the way in which the NCAA and universities deal with athletic departments, and the way the public views athletic departments, has shifted in the wake of the Penn State scandal is not absurd.
Maybe our athletic department decided to bring in an outside investigating group to deal with T shirtgate because of Penn State. If that's the case then I think it's our athletic department who is absurd.
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The issue of course is that not all institutions and AD's set the same limits. It appears MU is headed the direction that won't make it a coach/athletics friendly place - as it was under Father Wild.
Please name the limits placed on the coach of the Marquette Golden Eagles that are not placed on the coach of the Georgetown Hoyas or the Memphis Tigers or ... your pick, really.
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Good point, though I'm pretty sure the conclusions I've drawn will be far more likely to become a reality than those put forth by Pakuni. To suggest Buzz won't be highly coveted by other schools due to these minor issues is ridiculous.
If these minor issues mean the school can't go about recruiting properly because the NCAA is all over their keister, then it's a perfectly valid point.
But, really, the issue is more that you are dismissing a point because you don't agree with it, and then spinning your tale as if it's fact. It's getting super tiresome.
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You are 100% correct.
However, an academic institution has to be careful about inserting athletic success (specifically winning) as part of it's mission.
Once you go down that road, you create a culture where you are willing to sacrifice "right" for the "good of the program". I'm not saying that everything is absolutely black and white, but the MU Administration cannot drink the kool aid, and need to remain objective, even if it hurts in the short run. It just has to be that way.
Honestly, Penn State is the perfect poster child for a school who inserted winning into it's mission statement and culture, and thus decisions were made based upon if it would help/hurt the program. Once that culture takes hold, it's a hard habit to break.
Also, what is with all of the Pilarz and LW hate? We haven't even seen these dudes long enough to know much about them, yet some are ready to run them out? Maybe Monarch should know the rules, then he wouldn't be fired. That's not Pilarz and LW's fault.
I would agree with you if the same standard was applied across the entire athletic department. I know for a fact that they are letting things slide in non-basketball sports that they aren't for the basketball program. I agree that culture is important, but this seems less about culture and more about some PR concern and going after Buzz
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I would agree with you if the same standard was applied across the entire athletic department. I know for a fact that they are letting things slide in non-basketball sports that they aren't for the basketball program. I agree that culture is important, but this seems less about culture and more about some PR concern and going after Buzz
Come on...how many other non-basketball sports have caused all the negative press over the last couple of years? Of course they are going after the basketball program...that's where the problems have been.
BTW, cleaning up the issues within the basketball program is NOT the same thing as going after Buzz. And, if Buzz really has serious issues with anything that's going on he's completely full of BS. You know, character revealed, a better person than basketball player, accountability, all that stuff.
I hope that he's not completely full of BS, so I don't believe there is really any major friction between Buzz and LW/the admin.
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Gary Parrish@GaryParrishCBS
"How many other coaches with back-to-back Sweet Sixteens you think would get a suspension from his own school for this? Zero, I'd bet."
I call BS, Parish is 100% wrong. I noted this in the other post I started
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33438.msg406353#msg406353
We are now in a post Joe PA era. Parish is living in the past.
Bobby Petrino was 11 and 1 and won cotton bowl and they bounced his ass for falling off a motorcycle. So, while Parish is technically correct, he is conceptually wrong.
See Butch Davis at UNC. See Jim Tressel. How about Bruce Pearl?
In the post Joe Pa era, HC's that are winners are not rationalized. They are immediately fired.
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Did Petrino fall off his motorcycle before or after he porked that chick?
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I call BS, Parish is 100% wrong. I noted this in the other post I started
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33438.msg406353#msg406353
We are now in a post Joe PA era. Parish is living in the past.
Bobby Petrino was 11 and 1 and won cotton bowl and they bounced his ass for falling off a motorcycle. So, while Parish is technically correct, he is conceptually wrong.
See Butch Davis at UNC. See Jim Tressel. How about Bruce Pearl?
In the post Joe Pa era, HC's that are winners are not rationalized. They are immediately fired.
All those coaches were fired for lying, just like Scott Monarch was. If there's an issue between Buzz and the Athletic Department, it's probably over whether or not his own suspension is justified.
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All those coaches were fired for lying, just like Scott Monarch was. If there's an issue between Buzz and the Athletic Department, it's probably over whether or not his own suspension is justified.
Like I said, this is a new era, the post Joe Pa era. HC's are now responsible for everything.
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Like I said, this is a new era, the post Joe Pa era. HC's are now responsible for everything.
Then why are you using examples Pre-JoePa to back up your point? Tressel, Pearl, and Petrino would all likely still have their jobs if they didn't lie.
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Cut to the chase. Do you think agree with Parish that Buzz is being unfairly punished? I do not. His suspension is more about the culmination of things that suggests the program is out of control. Monarch was the straw that broke the camel's back.
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Cut to the chase. Do you think agree with Parish that Buzz is being unfairly punished? I do not. His suspension is more about the culmination of things that suggests the program is out of control. Monarch was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Honestly, I have no clue. But it certainly wouldn't surprise me if Parish was echoing Buzz's thoughts.
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Honestly, I have no clue. But it certainly wouldn't surprise me if Parish was echoing Buzz's thoughts.
That I agree with and this is what worries me. Buzz does not get it.
* SMU
* TJ Taylor
* Todd Mayo suspended and then not suspended
* Apartment 720
* Monrach breaking the rules and lying
* Multiple in-season suspensions
* Newbill
* Sexual assault (harassment)
* Half the team getting busted for being under 21 in a bar
* Vander fight/court appearances, etc.
After all this Buzz get a one-game suspension and he feels jilted?
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That I agree with and this is what worries me. Buzz does not get it.
* SMU
* TJ Taylor
* Todd Mayo suspended and then not suspended
* Apartment 720
* Monrach breaking the rules and lying
* Multiple in-season suspensions
* Newbill
* Sexual assault (harassment)
* Half the team getting busted for being under 21 in a bar
* Vander fight/court appearances, etc.
After all this Buzz get a one-game suspension and he feels jilted?
You're assuming all those things played into the suspension. I don't imagine Larry told Buzz that considering another job was a factor in this.
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I agree, you can take SMU off the list above. But even with that revision it is acceptably long and suggests and out of control program.
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I would agree with you if the same standard was applied across the entire athletic department. I know for a fact that they are letting things slide in non-basketball sports that they aren't for the basketball program. I agree that culture is important, but this seems less about culture and more about some PR concern and going after Buzz
I hope you are wrong, but honestly, I have no idea. I don't have any inside information, so I don't know.
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Did Petrino fall off his motorcycle before or after he porked that chick?
Both. Also during.
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Any comparison whatsoever to Penn State is ludicrous. Remember the "Hitler" analogies seen on the internet that disgust all sane people? Same difference.
Fine.
Let's use SMU as the example then.
They let winning and $ become part of their mission statement, and it quickly spun out of control.
MU is NOWHERE near this level. Not even close. I'm not implying that at all.
But, philosophically, the MU admin. needs to to keep doing what is right, even if it might hurt in the short run.
For me, this isn't about this specific situation (I have no special insight), but rather the reaction of some people when MU makes a decision that could hurt the program. I'm certainly not happy about about an assistant being fired, but I'm not grabbing a pitch fork and heading for Larry's house.
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I don't know about arguing any of this anymore, but if you wanted an MU off season of killing any program momentum among the fans they are getting there.... since Buzz and team got their Sweet Sixteen accomplished.
thank goodness for our great recruiting, which may or may not come to fruition.
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My only question is if LW has an anti Buzz agenda or just playing by the book. If playing 100% by the book I would be disappointed but could not argue that. If anti Buzz agenda due to perception that Buzz is loose on things would be very disappointing. From what I have heard for months Buzz is not their kind of guy. To me if Buzz and MU are cool with each other none of this stuff means anything to me. every program has issues and for whatever reason ours has become more public over last year.
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That I agree with and this is what worries me. Buzz does not get it.
* SMU
* TJ Taylor
* Todd Mayo suspended and then not suspended
* Apartment 720
* Monrach breaking the rules and lying
* Multiple in-season suspensions
* Newbill
* Sexual assault (harassment)
* Half the team getting busted for being under 21 in a bar
* Vander fight/court appearances, etc.
After all this Buzz get a one-game suspension and he feels jilted?
First, nice job on the double dipping to make a longer list....getting a ticket for under 21 was part of the Apartment 720 event as well as the in-season suspensions.
Second, Newbill and TJ Taylor are recruiting misses and Newbill occured before LW.
Third, these types of things have gone on to various degrees in previous MU basketball administrations without these clamps being executed. So clearly the administration has decided that something has to be done and I disagree with that.
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Yes, and Kentucky had reason for pause before hiring Calipari, whose 2 previous schools ended up in hot water with the NCAA.
Anomaly. There is a pretty large contingent of UK fans who believe this year's title will eventually by vacated. And they don't care.
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Buzz and Larry are the perfect combo, seriously. Buzz can run his team, dance after a win, etc. Larry can lay down the law when needed so the NCAA can feel safe with Marquette and keeping things under control. I'm too young to know the days of Al, but from reading a book on him it sounded like he thought the NCAA was after him and so calling his retirement preseason played a role in how the NCAA/refs treated him the final year. Larry can play the tough guy, Buzz can get his players, and they can build a championship caliber team. Am I being too Naive? Perhaps. Or perhaps I'm being blindside by hope and the upside that these two have together. Someday we'll look back and remember the fun times when Buzz was our coach.
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Anomaly. There is a pretty large contingent of UK fans who believe this year's title will eventually by vacated. And they don't care.
It wouldn't be the Kentucky way if they didn't cheat for a championship
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That I agree with and this is what worries me. Buzz does not get it.
* SMU
* TJ Taylor
* Todd Mayo suspended and then not suspended
* Apartment 720
* Monrach breaking the rules and lying
* Multiple in-season suspensions
* Newbill
* Sexual assault (harassment)
* Half the team getting busted for being under 21 in a bar
* Vander fight/court appearances, etc.
After all this Buzz get a one-game suspension and he feels jilted?
First, nice job on the double dipping to make a longer list....getting a ticket for under 21 was part of the Apartment 720 event as well as the in-season suspensions.
Second, Newbill and TJ Taylor are recruiting misses and Newbill occured before LW.
Third, these types of things have gone on to various degrees in previous MU basketball administrations without these clamps being executed. So clearly the administration has decided that something has to be done and I disagree with that.
I disagree with both of you guys.
Hiring an assistant coach who chose to lie repeatedly to his bosses and people investigating on their behalf about secondary (read minor) violations should leave a head coach open for a one game suspension, especially when that head coach had a close personal relationship with that assistant coach. As well as Buzz knew Monarch, he should have known whether or not he would try and cover up minor infractions, and Buzz should have made it damn clear to Monarch that his job was to tell the truth in responding to any questions. This is the start of a new day of accountability (which is the only point anyone is trying to make when Penn State is brought up) where letting an assistant coach take the hit while a HC stands back and says; "I had no idea!" doesn't cut it anymore.
So yeah, mu03eng, this wouldn't have happened with past MU athletic administrations, but that was then, and this is now and the schools that are late to the party figuring that out are in for some rude shocks from the NCAA down the road. Personally, I will be more than happy to see that happen because MU has always been one of the programs to try and run a tight ship while other programs got away with committing violations and avoiding accountability when caught by sacrificing some assistant coach.
So yeah, AnotherMU84, there is enough justification for suspending Buzz for one game without bringing up past transgressions (which are irrelevant to this matter) to somehow try and make a stronger case. LW didn't feel the need to drag any of that past stuff into this matter, and we shouldn't try to drag it in either.
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I disagree with both of you guys.
Hiring an assistant coach who chose to lie repeatedly to his bosses and people investigating on their behalf about secondary (read minor) violations should leave a head coach open for a one game suspension, especially when that head coach had a close personal relationship with that assistant coach. As well as Buzz knew Monarch, he should have known whether or not he would try and cover up minor infractions, and Buzz should have made it damn clear to Monarch that his job was to tell the truth in responding to any questions. This is the start of a new day of accountability (which is the only point anyone is trying to make when Penn State is brought up) where letting an assistant coach take the hit while a HC stands back and says; "I had no idea!" doesn't cut it anymore.
So yeah, mu03eng, this wouldn't have happened with past MU athletic administrations, but that was then, and this is now and the schools that are late to the party figuring that out are in for some rude shocks from the NCAA down the road. Personally, I will be more than happy to see that happen because MU has always been one of the programs to try and run a tight ship while other programs got away with committing violations and avoiding accountability when caught by sacrificing some assistant coach.
So yeah, AnotherMU84, there is enough justification for suspending Buzz for one game without bringing up past transgressions (which are irrelevant to this matter) to somehow try and make a stronger case. LW didn't feel the need to drag any of that past stuff into this matter, and we shouldn't try to drag it in either.
Good post ... in the end with are both trying to say this has little to do with LW trying to turn us into SLU, or trying to run Buzz out of town, and everything to do with how Buzz's program is run ... be it just this infraction or the culmination of all the infractions over the last two years.
And you got the Joe Pa reference exactly right.
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Second, Newbill and TJ Taylor are recruiting misses and Newbill occured before LW.
Newbill was cut because someone better came along at the last minute (Wilson). The implication was he was BE material but was traded for someone better. I still have no problem with that but this is on the line which is why I included it. You can disagree.
BUZZ SAID (on ESPN Milw Radio, last month) he knew TJ Taylor since he was in 8th grade and BUZZ SAID he has been close to his family for many years. He lasted, what two days, before going home. Given Buzz's bragging about his deep and long relationship with a recruit that lasted a few days is why I included it on the list. You can disagree.
I did not put Roseboro or Durley on the list as they were "cut" because it was decided they were not BE material. I have to problem with that. It happens.
I also did not include all the transfers (Jones, Reggie Miller, Ewill, Jmay, etc) because that too happens and does not signal a problem with the program. It happens
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Newbill was cut because someone better came along at the last minute (Wilson). The implication was he was BE material but was traded for someone better. I still have no problem with that but this is on the line which is why I included it. You can disagree.
BUZZ SAID (on ESPN Milw Radio, last month) he knew TJ Taylor since he was in 8th grade and BUZZ SAID he has been close to his family for many years. He lasted, what two days, before going home. Given Buzz's bragging about his deep and long relationship with a recruit that lasted a few days is why I included it on the list. You can disagree.
I did not put Roseboro or Durley on the list as they were "cut" because it was decided they were not BE material. I have to problem with that. It happens.
I also did not include all the transfers (Jones, Reggie Miller, Ewill, Jmay, etc) because that too happens and does not signal a problem with the program. It happens
The loss of Reggie Miller is really going to hurt MU's outside shooting this season. He was a defensive liability though.
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I disagree with both of you guys.
Hiring an assistant coach who chose to lie repeatedly to his bosses and people investigating on their behalf about secondary (read minor) violations should leave a head coach open for a one game suspension, especially when that head coach had a close personal relationship with that assistant coach. As well as Buzz knew Monarch, he should have known whether or not he would try and cover up minor infractions, and Buzz should have made it damn clear to Monarch that his job was to tell the truth in responding to any questions. This is the start of a new day of accountability (which is the only point anyone is trying to make when Penn State is brought up) where letting an assistant coach take the hit while a HC stands back and says; "I had no idea!" doesn't cut it anymore.
So yeah, mu03eng, this wouldn't have happened with past MU athletic administrations, but that was then, and this is now and the schools that are late to the party figuring that out are in for some rude shocks from the NCAA down the road. Personally, I will be more than happy to see that happen because MU has always been one of the programs to try and run a tight ship while other programs got away with committing violations and avoiding accountability when caught by sacrificing some assistant coach.
Murs, in the case of the Monarch firing and Buzz suspension, I agree it was warranted. If that was the only thing that had happened over the last 2 years, I would be nothing but a cheerleader for the administration and Larry Williams. I also think Buzz should be fine with what happened in this particular instance because he preaches accountability, he should have some of his own.
I also agree that the HC should be accountable, and that we are only going to see more of that in this day and age, with the exception of massive academic fraud at North Carolina for a decade apparently but I digress. In fact I strongly believe in that, which is why I'm concerned about the clamps being turned on Buzz and staff over the last 2 years that are definitely not to being applied other athletic programs at Marquette.
I want men of principal running things, and who do the right thing because it is right not because it is expedient. Right now looking at it as a whole, I feel like the admin and LW are applying principal only where it has an impact on MU's media image, not to MU as a whole and that bothers me.
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The skinny.....let's be real here. We are a big time program, we all want to be here but have to accept the responsibility that comes with it. We have performed well in the Big East and on the national stage of late and have a pedigree and colorful history in basketball in a huge, if not largest, revenue generating source for the university, regardless of where the funds are spent or classified. It's a big business......
Buzz and all his "friends" are "lifers" in the biz. They KNOW the rules, what works, what everyone else does, know all about inside stuff in the life and environment. "I didn't know that" or "wasn't aware of that" are just plain excuses and lies, I believe.
I DO believe that Buzz, personally, wasn't aware of the SPECIFIC violation with the SPECIFIC individual called in question but is WELL aware of what all his assistants do with recruits and are allowed, internally. His so called "deep" friendships certainly suggest that all involved are on pretty much the "same page" going forward and all invoved with the program have a firm understanding of what Buzz wants and needs relative to the competition. He IS the man in charge. "Don't get caught" and "don't do anything exceedingly stupid," I'm sure. are mantras to be observed.
The violation/s were considered minor. and I'll bet frequently violated without reprisal by almost everyone out there. What's t-shirt and a ride???? BUT, the integrity issue???? HUGE!!!! Especially in the face of extra scrutiny on coaches and programs today.
I worked for a multi-national private company for 26 years and if you made mistakes, errors and/or big screw-ups
you would get disciplined, sanctioned, demoted and such but the only thing that got you fired was lying about it....
If you owned up you got beat up, if you didn't you got fired. As simple as that. Make a mistake or a bad plan on a big project and life got miserable for a while but falsify an expense account or lie about accountability and you got fired immediately. A coach lies............good bye, friend or no friend, plain and simple.
Buzz is and should be accountable for the program. Marquette wants success and therfore will be out there in the public eye for all kinds of scrutiny and wants to maintain an image we all desire. It's Buzz's responsibility for which he is quite ably compensated.............
The program has experienced a few misteps of late. Thank goodness Notre Dame and Penn State's problems have taken a spot light off our dirty sagas. Not excusing them at all or happy about the others........they still happened and are areas of concern for a lot of reasons.
A suspension of Buzz for no "apparent" or specific reason seems odd but may be the message to him and others that boundries are being established and enforced and need to be better monitored in the future.
It's Buzz's basketball program but our university. Sweet sixteens are nice but are we proud of how we get there??? Does Penn State, Notre Dame and Marquette sound good in the same sentence?? If you get to the point you think about putting on your MU sweatshirt on in public, it's time to reassess...............Pride....at what cost??
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It's Buzz's basketball program but our university. Sweet sixteens are nice but are we proud of how we get there??? Does Penn State, Notre Dame and Marquette sound good in the same sentence?? If you get to the point you think about putting on your MU sweatshirt on in public, it's time to reassess...............Pride....at what cost??
Penn State and Marquette in the same sentence? Really. If this or anything else that's transpired in the last 4 (or 12 or 50) years makes you embarrassed to wear your Marquette sweatshirt in public, then don't. Better yet, burn it on your front lawn. Let's leave no doubt about the heights of your sanctimony.
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Enough of this effing "after Joe Pa" b.s. Life/infractions will continue to go on. And guess what, even in this dark depressing post-Joe Pa era, schools will still self impose penalties and fire people for breaking the rules.
Jesus Christoff in a chicken basket. This isn't Joe Pa or have anything to do w/Joe Pa. Comparing the cover up of dozens of sexual assaults that occurred on your campus and people of authority new does NOT equal giving a kid a ride to an airport along with a t-shirt. Even lying about the later doesn't compare to the former.
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Enough of this effing "after Joe Pa" b.s. Life/infractions will continue to go on. And guess what, even in this dark depressing post-Joe Pa era, schools will still self impose penalties and fire people for breaking the rules.
Jesus Christoff in a chicken basket. This isn't Joe Pa or have anything to do w/Joe Pa. Comparing the cover up of dozens of sexual assaults that occurred on your campus and people of authority new does NOT equal giving a kid a ride to an airport along with a t-shirt. Even lying about the later doesn't compare to the former.
I don't think people are comparing what happened at Penn State to what happened at Marquette; at least I haven't read it that way. The "after JoePa" stuff isn't some kind of abstract discussion about how things are going to be different in the wake of the Penn State scandal. It's very real: there's NCAA legislation on the table right now that would change the way things are done, compliance-wise.
http://athleticbusiness.com/articles/lexisnexis.aspx?lnarticleid=1718192389&lntopicid=136030023
Worth noting in the penultimate paragraph:
"The proposals also set out to better hold coaches accountable for establishing a tone of compliance. The most serious rules breakers could be subject to suspensions as great as a full season or a show-cause order as long as 10 years."
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Rubie is right
In the wake of Penn State the world for coaches has changed/is changing. No longer is "I did not know" going to work. If something goes wrong in the program, and no matter how removed the head coach is from the infraction, the head coach is going to be punished for it. That is what happened here.
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Rubie is right
In the wake of Penn State the world for coaches has changed/is changing. No longer is "I did not know" going to work. If something goes wrong in the program, and no matter how removed the head coach is from the infraction, the head coach is going to be punished for it. That is what happened here.
It's not just in the wake of Penn State. The whole concept of "I did not know" no longer being a valid defense goes back even further, to the Calhoun suspension, for example. If we go back to Page 8 of this thread:
The part that I found most interesting in Pat Forde's piece about accountability (http://sports.espn.go.com/blog/CollegeBasketballNation/post/_/id/23883/the-cult-of-the-head-coach-slowly-dying) in the wake of the Calhoun suspension was this:
Dennis Thomas, chairman of the Committee on Infractions, tried his best not to say much on a teleconference announcing UConn’s penalties Tuesday. But one point that came through rather clearly was that a head coach is responsible for keeping his program clean, and ignorance is no defense.
“This is something that a head coach should know about and ensure that everyone is in compliance,” Thomas said of the improper benefits, contacts and agent dealings UConn had in its recruitment of Miles. “And that didn’t happen. … This situation specifically dealt with issues the head coach should have known about.”
The "I didn't know" defense has gone away since 2009, to paraphrase much of the rest of the linked article.
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Awesome, you are correct that the trend is holding the HC responsible has been evolving for years. Joe Pa/Penn State accelerated it.
So answer this for me. Buzz "Character Revealed" Williams should completely and totally understand that the HC is responsible and will be punished anytime something goes wrong. Simply, this is now how the world works. He should not be mad at Larry Williams for firing Monarch and suspending him for a game (he should be mad at Monarch).
So why do people keep saying this cements the idea that Buzz will leave in a year or two? Did Buzz honestly expect MU to sweep this under the rug and does he think another school will?
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Awesome, you are correct that the trend is holding the HC responsible has been evolving for years. Joe Pa/Penn State accelerated it.
So answer this for me. Buzz "Character Revealed" Williams should completely and totally understand that the HC is responsible and will be punished anytime something goes wrong. Simply, this is now how the world works. He should not be mad at Larry Williams for firing Monarch and suspending him for a game (he should be mad at Monarch).
So why do people keep saying this cements the idea that Buzz will leave in a year or two? Did Buzz honestly expect MU to sweep this under the rug and does he think another school will?
Shouldn't this be in another thread?
I'm not jumping to conclusions yet on whether or not Buzz is happy/sad/mad/etc at the administration for this. That's not my place to do so.
If he leaves in part because he's upset over this, that's life, unfortunately. MU had to self-report this.
If he stays and is cool with the suspension because he understands accountability, that's wonderful and shows that he holds himself to the same levels of accountability he holds his players to.
Will he leave? There is but one person who has the answer to that:
(http://www.worldcupblog.org/files/2008/07/miss-cleo.jpg)
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We don't know much about the details of this but I suspect that most organizations will coordinate with other levels of management before acting. All I'm saying is that this COULD be Buzz' solution with the AD's approval. Who knows? I always collaborate with middle management before I act.
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Rubie is right
In the wake of Penn State the world for coaches has changed/is changing. No longer is "I did not know" going to work. If something goes wrong in the program, and no matter how removed the head coach is from the infraction, the head coach is going to be punished for it. That is what happened here.
So when do you think Alabama will fire or suspend Nick Saban for the 20+ violations (that we know of) which have been self reported to the NCAA? I'm sure if Alabama doesn't put the hammer down on Nick the campus will be crawling with investigators, right?
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So when do you think Alabama will fire or suspend Nick Saban for the 20+ violations (that we know of) which have been self reported to the NCAA? I'm sure if Alabama doesn't put the hammer down on Nick the campus will be crawling with investigators, right?
Not to be a wet blanket, but only 4 of those 27 were with the football team (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/basketball/ncaa/08/15/Alabama-NCAA-violations.ap/index.html)...
Has anyone seen evidence of lying with regards to these secondary violations at Alabama...? It wasn't the violations that got Monarch canned, it's the repeated lying about it.
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My computer must being acting up, because it's telling me you're comparing Buzz Williams with John Calipari who, when hired by Kentucky, was a two-time national coach of the year with two Final Fours, three Elite Eights and two Sweet Sixteens.
Do I need to call the repairman?
Calipari definitely came with more credentials than Buzz. Also with significantly more baggage.
The point wasn't to compare the resumes of the two coaches. The point was that potential employers see what they want to see.
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The loss of Reggie Miller is really going to hurt MU's outside shooting this season. He was a defensive liability though.
And boom goes the dynamite. :)
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So when do you think Alabama will fire or suspend Nick Saban for the 20+ violations (that we know of) which have been self reported to the NCAA? I'm sure if Alabama doesn't put the hammer down on Nick the campus will be crawling with investigators, right?
1. Has there been a widespread call for Buzz Williams' firing around here?
2. Is an SEC football program really what you want Marquette to model itself after?
3. Only four of those Alabama violations stemmed from football, none related to giving something to a recruit and there's no indication anyone lied to cover it up. Apples/oranges.
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Don't lie. Keep your job.
This shouldn't be a difficult thing to follow.
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1. Has there been a widespread call for Buzz Williams' firing around here?
2. Is an SEC football program really what you want Marquette to model itself after?
3. Only four of those Alabama violations stemmed from football, none related to giving something to a recruit and there's no indication anyone lied to cover it up. Apples/oranges.
I'll answer these for Lenny ...
1. Absolutely No one has called for Buzz's head. Rather the discussion is whether a one BE game suspension is appropriate or not. According to the poll, 2/3s say yes.
2. No, nothing more needs to be said.
3. Has Alabama taken action, or said they will not? I think this is still a work in process.
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1. Has there been a widespread call for Buzz Williams' firing around here?
2. Is an SEC football program really what you want Marquette to model itself after?
3. Only four of those Alabama violations stemmed from football, none related to giving something to a recruit and there's no indication anyone lied to cover it up. Apples/oranges.
Please indicate where in my post I said anything about "a widespread call for Buzz Williams' firing around here". If I or anyone else had written something anywhere close to as misleading as this in response to a post of yours you'd go batspit.
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Tell me this, internet nerd brothers. What do you think was Monarch's motivation to cover up this "secondary violation"?
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Tell me this, internet nerd brothers. What do you think was Monarch's motivation to cover up this "secondary violation"?
That's the part that scares the crap out of me, personally.
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I'll answer these for Lenny ...
1. Absolutely No one has called for Buzz's head.
BS. KnightCommission has absolutely called for his head.
And then there's the other deep thinkers who believe Buzz should be laying prostrate at LW's feet thanking him for saving his job in spite of all the terrible offenses he's committed (that would be primarily you). I guess you're not technically calling for his head - seems you think one foot and a few fingers will do - for now.
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BS. KnightCommission has absolutely called for his head.
And then there's the other deep thinkers who believe Buzz should be laying prostrate at LW's feet thanking him for saving his job in spite of all the terrible offenses he's committed (that would be primarily you). I guess you're not technically calling for his head - seems you think one foot and a few fingers will do - for now.
Correct, I'm not calling for his head. So you're left with Knight Commission and no one else for your premise that "everyone" is calling for his head.
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Tell me this, internet nerd brothers. What do you think was Monarch's motivation to cover up this "secondary violation"?
Topper, I too have pondered this. Most logical - something that's been communicated from the administration to the basketball staff (either directly or by way of a general hostile attitude) made Monarch think that he would get the axe even if he told the truth.
The other possibility, I suppose, is that there are major violations that Buzz, LW and Fr Pilarz are hoping get lost in the shuffle after they made Monarch the sacrificial lamb.
My money's on the first choice
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Correct, I'm not calling for his head. So you're left with Knight Commission and no one else for your premise that "everyone" is calling for his head.
Nice, except for the inconvenient fact that that was never MY premise, it was a made up premise attributed to me by Pakuni.
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Topper, I too have pondered this. Most logical - something that's been communicated from the administration to the basketball staff (either directly or by way of a general hostile attitude) made Monarch think that he would get the axe even if he told the truth.
The other possibility, I suppose, is that there are major violations that Buzz, LW and Fr Pilarz are hoping get lost in the shuffle after they made Monarch the sacrificial lamb.
My money's on the first choice
Or he figured he could get away with it, or that it was so insignificant that he wouldn't lose his job about it, even if he lied.
Or he figured he was safe because he's Buzz's best friend.
And so on.
There's like 18 possibilities for why he would do this. I really hope this was just in error in judgment (as Buzz put it) on Monarch's part.
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Tell me this, internet nerd brothers. What do you think was Monarch's motivation to cover up this "secondary violation"?
My guess is that he was too embarrassed to admit that he gave a recruit this:
(http://img1.etsystatic.com/000/0/5676401/il_170x135.184673121.jpg)
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Please indicate where in my post I said anything about "a widespread call for Buzz Williams' firing around here". If I or anyone else had written something anywhere close to as misleading as this in response to a post of yours you'd go batspit.
You asked when Nick Saban was going to be fired in an attempt to analogize Marquette's handling of secondary violations by its assistant with Alabama's handling of secondary violations by an assistant. Of course, you conveniently left out the whole "lying to the bosses and investigators" part that make the situations totally different.
I see you've somehow later managed to blame Larry Williams for that also. Poor, poor Scott Monarch was forced to lie by that dastardly Domer.
For the record, Larry Williams also shot Kennedy (both of them), broke up the Beatles, staged the moon landing in a San Fernando Valley sound stage and invented the hanging chad.
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Tell me this, internet nerd brothers. What do you think was Monarch's motivation to cover up this "secondary violation"?
My assumption is that he did it, didn't plan on mentioning it to anyone (especially after the MU admins tightened the reins a little bit) but someone got word of it, he was caught off guard when confronted, lied about it and then stubbornly stuck with the lie as it spiraled out of control.
It's like when you were a student and the girl you were dating angrily asks if you were just flirting with some other girl. The initial reaction is to say, "What? No! Come on." Then when she presses more, you stick to your lie because there's no going back even though it's obvious that you're lying.
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You asked when Nick Saban was going to be fired in an attempt to analogize Marquette's handling of secondary violations by its assistant with Alabama's handling of secondary violations by an assistant. Of course, you conveniently left out the whole "lying to the bosses and investigators" part that make the situations totally different.
I see you've somehow later managed to blame Larry Williams for that also. Poor, poor Scott Monarch was forced to lie by that dastardly Domer.
For the record, Larry Williams also shot Kennedy (both of them), broke up the Beatles, staged the moon landing in a San Fernando Valley sound stage and invented the hanging chad.
What has Larry Williams done and accomplished at MU that makes you think he's immune to the criticism? What skins on the wall does he have? Can you find another example of an AD 90 days on the job, who to the local paper, pretty much says he's going to help his coach become better, that his coach ties his tie too tight, and will either have his head explode or will irrevocably offend somebody - all said about a guy who has 3.5 years in, which had culminated in 3 NCAA births, 1 Sweet 16 and another that followed a month later. Buzz has earned the benefit of the doubt. Larry simply has created doubt.
I look forward to your reply.
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You asked when Nick Saban was going to be fired in an attempt to analogize Marquette's handling of secondary violations
Of course I said fire OR suspend, so this is the second time you've lied by omission. How many times before it becomes a fireable offense?
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I keep pondering this scenario too...the thing that keeps going through my mind...if Buzz and Scott are such good friends (which we all know they are)...you would think there would have been some conversation between the two of them on how to manage this issue. You would think when Scott was getting probed on the issue he would have called Buzz to get an idea how to address the question. What if he did talk with Buzz and Buzz said "deny it".... And then it spiraled out of control? If they did talk...you would think the answer would have been "come clean" with the fact. The whole thing just does not make sense in my opinion.
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I see you've somehow later managed to blame Larry Williams for that also. Poor, poor Scott Monarch was forced to lie by that dastardly Domer.
More pure, unadulterated BS. Monarch wasn't "forced to lie by Larry Williams" nor did I EVER say he was. Monarch made that decision. That he MAY have (rightly or wrongly) thought he was toast if he owned up doesn't excuse the lie or mean he was forced into it.
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I keep pondering this scenario too...the thing that keeps going through my mind...if Buzz and Scott are such good friends (which we all know they are)...you would think there would have been some conversation between the two of them on how to manage this issue. You would think when Scott was getting probed on the issue he would have called Buzz to get an idea how to address the question. What if he did talk with Buzz and Buzz said "deny it".... And then it spiraled out of control? If they did talk...you would think the answer would have been "come clean" with the fact. The whole thing just does not make sense in my opinion.
If the investigation was handled properly, everyone involved would have been told up front to not talk amongst themselves. That would preclude Buzz and Monarch would not have talked about this until the investigation was over.
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What has Larry Williams done and accomplished at MU that makes you think he's immune to the criticism? What skins on the wall does he have? Can you find another example of an AD 90 days on the job, who to the local paper, pretty much says he's going to help his coach become better, that his coach ties his tie too tight, and will either have his head explode or will irrevocably offend somebody - all said about a guy who has 3.5 years in, which had culminated in 3 NCAA births, 1 Sweet 16 and another that followed a month later. Buzz has earned the benefit of the doubt. Larry simply has created doubt.
I can answer this. While Buzz has been successful on the court, he has also "earned" additional oversight because of problems off the court, many of which were completely within his control. This latest incident simply reinforces that notion.
And I will point out...again...that while you are fixated on Larry Williams, he is doing pretty much exactly what the leadership of the University *wants* him to do.
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More pure, unadulterated BS. Monarch wasn't "forced to lie by Larry Williams" nor did I EVER say he was. Monarch made that decision. That he MAY have (rightly or wrongly) thought he was toast if he owned up doesn't excuse the lie or mean he was forced into it.
Just an additional thought:
I know the NCAA rulebook is too long, and there are a million rules, but the rule he broke is a pretty basic one, which makes this situation even weirder.
Monarch had to know he was breaking the rules, so he either didn't care, or didn't think he would get caught, right? The "coverup" is worse, but what he did (while not major) was really careless at best.
A coach wouldn't get fired for it, but if I'm running the show, it gives me some concern that the most basic rules of recruiting aren't being followed.
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What has Larry Williams done and accomplished at MU that makes you think he's immune to the criticism? What skins on the wall does he have? Can you find another example of an AD 90 days on the job, who to the local paper, pretty much says he's going to help his coach become better, that his coach ties his tie too tight, and will either have his head explode or will irrevocably offend somebody - all said about a guy who has 3.5 years in, which had culminated in 3 NCAA births, 1 Sweet 16 and another that followed a month later. Buzz has earned the benefit of the doubt. Larry simply has created doubt.
I look forward to your reply.
Great point. Administrators like Williams are a dime a dozen. Coaches like Williams are not.
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Just an additional thought:
I know the NCAA rulebook is too long, and there are a million rules, but the rule he broke is a pretty basic one, which makes this situation even weirder.
Monarch had to know he was breaking the rules, so he either didn't care, or didn't think he would get caught, right? The "coverup" is worse, but what he did (while not major) was really careless at best.
A coach wouldn't get fired for it, but if I'm running the show, it gives me some concern that the most basic rules of recruiting aren't being followed.
The motivations for Monarch lying are one of the following...
1. There is a "zero tolerance policy" so he was screwed anyway
2. He thought it would work, but didn't realize they had hard evidence against him (which they did by the way.)
3. He thought he was a "made man," and Buzz would win a power struggle if it came to that
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BS. KnightCommission has absolutely called for his head.
And then there's the other deep thinkers who believe Buzz should be laying prostrate at LW's feet thanking him for saving his job in spite of all the terrible offenses he's committed (that would be primarily you). I guess you're not technically calling for his head - seems you think one foot and a few fingers will do - for now.
For the record, I dont think we should fire him, I just want him to leave after this season. I could change my mind though.
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The motivations for Monarch lying are one of the following...
1. There is a "zero tolerance policy" so he was screwed anyway
2. He thought it would work, but didn't realize they had hard evidence against him (which they did by the way.)
3. He thought he was a "made man," and Buzz would win a power struggle if it came to that
My guess is that it was some combination of #1 and #2. I'm not so sure that there's a "zero tolerance policy" but it wouldn't surprise me if he tried to keep it quiet because he knew that the new administration was cracking down more than the previous regime. Then he lied about it as a CYA move and there was no going back.
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For the record, I dont think we should fire him, I just want him to leave after this season. I could change my mind though.
For the record, that is pretty stupid.
You don't ask a coach that has built a top 15 team to leave over this off season.
If you really want him to leave and do not want a coach 'like him' then I hope you enjoy getting bounced in the first round every year.
There is no road to the top of CBB that does not involve a significant amount of bumps.
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I would be worried about not being good enough to be bounced in the first round. If Buzz would leave, I'm very worried about how the next hiring will go. Granted I was worried after losing Crean too.
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I would be worried about not being good enough to be bounced in the first round. If Buzz would leave, I'm very worried about how the next hiring will go. Granted I was worried after losing Crean too.
Probably someone along the lines of Ed "Straight Arrow" Genero.
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The motivations for Monarch lying are one of the following...
1. There is a "zero tolerance policy" so he was screwed anyway
2. He thought it would work, but didn't realize they had hard evidence against him (which they did by the way.)
3. He thought he was a "made man," and Buzz would win a power struggle if it came to that
Yea, I'm not questioning why he lied, I'm more questioning why he did it. It's a cardinal rule. I know he's trying to "sell" the kid on MU, but I don't think a shirt and a ride was going to do that anyways. Just seems like a silly/careless mistake.
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"pretty much says he's going to help his coach become better, that his coach ties his tie too tight, and will either have his head explode or will irrevocably offend somebody"
I love Buzz but:
1) It's the AD's job to help coaches become better (I don't take this literally as in X's and O's but in program matters, dealing with the media, player situations like handling the assault situation in a proper way, etc) - isn't that his job?
2) don't you think Buzz needs to relax some or he will burnout as well as do something he regrets (Mclavine interview, WVU dance, where's the line where he does something that isn't adored by all - believe it or not, not everybody thought the dance was a great thing)
You are so fixated on that article & have no idea what the actual relationship is with Buzz and LW - give a rest already...
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I would be worried about not being good enough to be bounced in the first round. If Buzz would leave, I'm very worried about how the next hiring will go. Granted I was worried after losing Crean too.
Even if MU did not make the tournament, why would Buzz leave with the 414 trio coming in? I am not worried about having a bad year. I am worried about the next 18-22 year old doing something stupid.
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To be a good recruiter you need to have some personality, You are trying to convince 16 years olds that your school is better and you as a coach are better for him then the other 10-20 schools recruiting him. If you want a accountant for a coach then you are going to be bad at recruiting. If you worked in a sales job for 2-3 years and you were killing it and the sales maanger that hired you got let go and a new guy came in that you make twice as much as him becuase of your track record for sales and he was micro managing you how would you feel about it him. That is my concern. The AD should be invloved when it comes to compliance, But in regard to the WV dance the AD should have a good laugh about it with the Coach especially now that they dumped the Big East.
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The motivations for Monarch lying are one of the following...
1. There is a "zero tolerance policy" so he was screwed anyway
2. He thought it would work, but didn't realize they had hard evidence against him (which they did by the way.)
3. He thought he was a "made man," and Buzz would win a power struggle if it came to that
Number 1 seems most likely, either an explicit "zero tolerance policy" or warnings that made it, to Monarch at least, implicit.
Number 2 is possible, especially in conjunction with number 1.
Number 3, very unlikely. Even a coach who is running the athletic department (and Buzz most certainly isn't) can't save a coach from the guillatine if he's caught lying to investigators. Everyone, Monarch included, knows that.
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Responses on the "What was Monarch's motivation" .. Generally, I think people are confusing "motivation" with justifications/rationalizations.
Most logical - something that's been communicated from the administration to the basketball staff (either directly or by way of a general hostile attitude) made Monarch think that he would get the axe even if he told the truth.
The other possibility, I suppose, is that there are major violations that Buzz, LW and Fr Pilarz are hoping get lost in the shuffle after they made Monarch the sacrificial lamb.
Certainly, losing one's job could be a huge motivation for covering up a mistake. I can't imagine Monarch thinking that, though. It's a secondary violation, and Monarch is one of Buzz's best buddies. As people have theorized many times: it wasn't the crime, it was the dishonesty that got him fired.
As for Monarch being motivated by your second possibility, that "there are other major violations that .. Buzz, LW, FP are hoping get lost in the shuffle" after Monarch was made a sacrificial lamb" .. well.. that couldn't have motivated Monarch. It could be a motivation for Buzz and the admins, but not for Monarch.
Or he figured he could get away with it, or that it was so insignificant that he wouldn't lose his job about it, even if he lied.
Or he figured he was safe because he's Buzz's best friend.
There's like 18 possibilities for why he would do this. I really hope this was just in error in judgment (as Buzz put it) on Monarch's part.
That he could 'get away with it' isn't a primary motivation, unless you're a pathological kind of guy, lying constantly. I don't think Monarch is that guy.
My assumption is that he did it, didn't plan on mentioning it to anyone (especially after the MU admins tightened the reins a little bit) but someone got word of it, he was caught off guard when confronted, lied about it and then stubbornly stuck with the lie as it spiraled out of control.
This is very plausible, although skims the possible motivation aspect.
Here's my answer.
Monarch mistakenly commits this secondary violation. I say mistakenly because I don't think he's a habitual violator. Lots of rules, small error in recalling the rules/judgement. Heck, maybe he gave away a dozen shirts to a group, then realized a recruit was in that group. (Best case scenario, but possible.)
At some point, he realizes this mistake, whether by himself or that someone asks about it. I think his motivation for being dishonest is simple. He doesn't want himself, nor MU implicated in a recruiting violation.
While he'd like to escape being associated with this error, he's also looking out for his boss, the BB program, the department, and MU in general. He's being loyal to the group, albeit in less than honest methods.
Not that I'd applaud dishonesty, but hey, it's not like the guy is evil or trying to undermine the program. He made a mistake. His dishonesty is a double edged issue. His heart was in the right place, albeit his judgement was not.
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Even if MU did not make the tournament, why would Buzz leave with the 414 trio coming in? I am not worried about having a bad year. I am worried about the next 18-22 year old doing something stupid.
Some would say that being an 18-22 year old is often synonymous with doing something stupid. Comes with the territory and is pervasive. Not exclusive to MU.
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How many recruiting violations do you think actually ever get found out and reported? 50% 30%? If it was an exact sceince then how do guys make 680 illegal calls before its reported? I'm guessing lots of T-shirts and single calls never come to light. IMO. Every recruit I see has tons of t-shirts and hats from the schools recruiting them. I'm not just talkin just MU.
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The motivations for Monarch lying are one of the following...
1. There is a "zero tolerance policy" so he was screwed anyway
2. He thought it would work, but didn't realize they had hard evidence against him (which they did by the way.)
3. He thought he was a "made man," and Buzz would win a power struggle if it came to that
For any of those to be true, you'd have to believe MU would "screw" (fire?) someone over a SECONDARY VIOLATION. And not just fire an intern (or Notre Dame grad) .. fire one of the main members of the coaching staff.
I don't find that plausible, I don't care what kind of warpath the administration is on.
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Monarch mistakenly commits this secondary violation. I say mistakenly because I don't think he's a habitual violator. Lots of rules, small error in recalling the rules/judgement. Heck, maybe he gave away a dozen shirts to a group, then realized a recruit was in that group. (Best case scenario, but possible.)
At some point, he realizes this mistake, whether by himself or that someone asks about it. I think his motivation for being dishonest is simple. He doesn't want himself, nor MU implicated in a recruiting violation.
While he'd like to escape being associated with this error, he's also looking out for his boss, the BB program, the department, and MU in general. He's being loyal to the group, albeit in less than honest methods.
Not that I'd applaud dishonesty, but hey, it's not like the guy is evil or trying to undermine the program. He made a mistake. His dishonesty is a double edged issue. His heart was in the right place, albeit his judgement was not.
+1
Excellent post, and I'd guess this hits very near the mark. A rare sighting of sanity in what is swiftly becoming an insane world.
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Monarch mistakenly commits this secondary violation. I say mistakenly because I don't think he's a habitual violator. Lots of rules, small error in recalling the rules/judgement. Heck, maybe he gave away a dozen shirts to a group, then realized a recruit was in that group. (Best case scenario, but possible.)
At some point, he realizes this mistake, whether by himself or that someone asks about it. I think his motivation for being dishonest is simple. He doesn't want himself, nor MU implicated in a recruiting violation.
While he'd like to escape being associated with this error, he's also looking out for his boss, the BB program, the department, and MU in general. He's being loyal to the group, albeit in less than honest methods.
Not that I'd applaud dishonesty, but hey, it's not like the guy is evil or trying to undermine the program. He made a mistake. His dishonesty is a double edged issue. His heart was in the right place, albeit his judgement was not.
This seems plausible/probable.
But, the initial violation still irks me a little. I understand it was a small violation, but it's a very basic rule, and even recruits would understand it.
"Sorry, (insert name), I can't give you a shirt. It's NCAA rule since we are recruiting you."
Maybe I'm getting mired in the minutia, and at this point, it makes no difference.
If Buzz and his staff are getting smacked down a little, hopefully the MU admin. goes out of their way to praise the coaches and players when they do well. That can be a starting point for everything to heal.
I've been through new bosses, and while being "re-trained"/"corrected" sucked, once I bought in, it wasn't so bad.
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Monarch mistakenly commits this secondary violation. I say mistakenly because I don't think he's a habitual violator. Lots of rules, small error in recalling the rules/judgement. Heck, maybe he gave away a dozen shirts to a group, then realized a recruit was in that group. (Best case scenario, but possible.)
That seems a bit of a stretch. A guy who's been around the game for more than a decade doesn't mistakenly forget you're not allowed to give recruits anything of value, no matter how minor. Also, his doesn't addressing the issue of him providing the recruit with a ride. Maybe he rented a bus and gave a ride to a group?
People sometimes panic and lie when questioned about a potential error on their part. My guess - and only a guess, as is everyone else's theories around here - is that Monarch gave the kid a shirt and a ride home, got called on it and said something misleading in hopes it would blow over. When it didn't, he perhaps thought the first lie would get him in trouble and felt he had no choice but to double down on the dishonesty and hope he could get away with it. That's how these things spiral out of control. We tell bigger and bigger lies to cover up for the small lies.
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Lenny'sTap
I believe that LW did what is best for the program and this was not completely a minor infraction. LW, from what I believe, made a sound decision based off the facts at hand. I do not believe for a minute he was canned for a tshirt, ride home and then lying. For all the LW haters, he might have done the best thing for the program with how he handled the situation. While not a fan of LW, I think he gets a high passing grade for how this was handled.
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Here's my answer.
Monarch mistakenly commits this secondary violation. I say mistakenly because I don't think he's a habitual violator. Lots of rules, small error in recalling the rules/judgement. Heck, maybe he gave away a dozen shirts to a group, then realized a recruit was in that group. (Best case scenario, but possible.)
At some point, he realizes this mistake, whether by himself or that someone asks about it. I think his motivation for being dishonest is simple. He doesn't want himself, nor MU implicated in a recruiting violation.
While he'd like to escape being associated with this error, he's also looking out for his boss, the BB program, the department, and MU in general. He's being loyal to the group, albeit in less than honest methods.
Not that I'd applaud dishonesty, but hey, it's not like the guy is evil or trying to undermine the program. He made a mistake. His dishonesty is a double edged issue. His heart was in the right place, albeit his judgement was not.
You paint a very plausible scenario, Topper. If this is what went down, I only wish someone in the athletic department had taken Monarch aside and said a) we realize this is minor, be honest and you're ok and b) loyalty to the program means telling the truth - not covering up a minor problem and letting it become a major one.
I find it hard to believe that given those circumstances he would have lied repeatedly about such a minor violation.
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You paint a very plausible scenario, Topper. If this is what went down, I only wish someone in the athletic department had taken Monarch aside and said a) we realize this is minor, be honest and you're ok and b) loyalty to the program means telling the truth - not covering up a minor problem and letting it become a major one.
I find it hard to believe that given those circumstances he would have lied repeatedly about such a minor violation.
I agree with you, which might mean that there is more to this than just a t-shirt.
Purely speculative on my behalf, but this could be a "last straw" scenario.
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I agree with you, which might mean that there is more to this than just a t-shirt.
Purely speculative on my behalf, but this could be a "last straw" scenario.
Or simply the implementation of an explicit or implicit zero tolerance policy.
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Lenny'sTap
I believe that LW did what is best for the program and this was not completely a minor infraction. LW, from what I believe, made a sound decision based off the facts at hand. I do not believe for a minute he was canned for a tshirt, ride home and then lying. For all the LW haters, he might have done the best thing for the program with how he handled the situation. While not a fan of LW, I think he gets a high passing grade for how this was handled.
Hold on, so LW covered up for something more serious by firing Monarch? How does that work? Monarch isn't going to snitch? Based on your statement it seems to imply something more serious happened but LW is not divulging that.....ummm isn't that kind of what Monarch was accused of doing? Maybe we'll never know but does this mean there is the potential for something else to blow up down the road?
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Or simply the implementation of an explicit or implicit zero tolerance policy.
Yea, honestly, I have no idea.
We'll see how this all plays out.
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When the violation was first announced a few weeks ago the speculation was that it was a t-shirt given to a player that is now on the team. I do not know how accurate the speculation was. Certainly there was some kind of apparel involved. What is not known is whether it was given to a player that is on this coming season's team as indicated by the original speculation, a player committed to be on 2013-14 team or a uncommitted player they are pursuing. The fact that it also involved giving a player a ride home presumably narrows it down. Originally, I was thinking it would have to be the Milwaukee area. However, it could be anywere, including visiting a player in another state at a school or tournament and giving the player a ride to his nearby home. My original take that giving a ride is a stupid thing for NCAA to be concerned with. However, after thinking about it a ride gives a coach exclusive access to a recruit for the time he and the recruit are alone in the car. The longer the ride the greater the advantage and I can understand why the NCAA is concerned with this. Why not give a recruit a ride all the way back to California. Imagine all the things that a long trip could involve. Staying in the fanciest hotels, expensive meals, touring National Parks, etc. It could take a whole summer to get a recruit home. Easiest thing would be to band all car rides home, then to get into arguments about what is excessive. I am still struggling with the t-shirt part. I think it would be easier to allow schools to give apparel to a recruit (under $100 or whatever value they want to allow) then to try to police the giving of t-shirts. The recruit is being pursued by 10 different schools and receives 10 different t-shirts. I just do not see much advantage to not allowing that. Even a smaller athletic budget school should be able to afford giving out t-shirts to potential recruits.
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I can answer this. While Buzz has been successful on the court, he has also "earned" additional oversight because of problems off the court, many of which were completely within his control. This latest incident simply reinforces that notion.
And I will point out...again...that while you are fixated on Larry Williams, he is doing pretty much exactly what the leadership of the University *wants* him to do.
So which of the off court incidents were completely within Buzz's control??!! NONE of the incidents including the issue with Monarch are completely in Buzz's control. To state Buzz has complete control over other's decision making processes is idiotic Sultan. Come on.
So if Larry is doing what the leadership of the University "wants" him to do - then frighteningly we have an even bigger issue - an issue of an academia jealous about the profile of the basketball program, head coaches salary, and apparently hell bent on trying to make MU an institution known most for its academia rather than its athletics. Sadly, better academia follows with better athletics. MU improved as a university drastically in the time Father Wild was here with regard to campus improvements, buildings, donations - and ironically this all showed up at a time when we returned to our greatest hoops prominence since Al McGuire.
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I make this comment already voicing my opinion that the lying is what got Monarch fired and that LW couldn't avoid letting him go for lying repeatedly.
So Monarch gives a recruit (who supposedly is with the team now) a t-shirt and a ride. How does this become public knowledge? It's not like a recruit is driving around in a new sportscar. I'm guessing Monarch doesn't say anything and who does the recruit tell?
How about this scenario? Maybe Monarch told Buzz about the t-shirt and ride. Buzz then tells LW, because that's what Buzz is about....doing the right thing when no one is watching. Except Buzz fails to mention to Monarch he's doing that. LW then asks Monarch to fill in the details and Monarch lies. Buzz figures Monarch will tell the truth and is thrown by the lies told by his friend.
OR................
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So which of the off court incidents were completely within Buzz's control??!! NONE of the incidents including the issue with Monarch are completely in Buzz's control. To state Buzz has complete control over other's decision making processes is idiotic Sultan. Come on.
Wrong! This is the Penn State/Joe Pa reference from a few pages ago.
... welcome to 2012 where the head coach is punished for anything that goes wrong. He is expected to set a standard so that assistants do not violate rules and lie and players to do get ticketed by the local police.
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So if Larry is doing what the leadership of the University "wants" him to do - then frighteningly we have an even bigger issue - an issue of an academia jealous about the profile of the basketball program, head coaches salary, and apparently hell bent on trying to make MU an institution known most for its academia rather than its athletics. Sadly, better academia follows with better athletics.
When you go to bed at night, are you scared that the "jealous academia" might jump out of the closet and beat you with their books?
Fr. Pilarz worked at Georgetown. He knew the deal before he took the job at MU.
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For any of those to be true, you'd have to believe MU would "screw" (fire?) someone over a SECONDARY VIOLATION. And not just fire an intern (or Notre Dame grad) .. fire one of the main members of the coaching staff.
I don't find that plausible, I don't care what kind of warpath the administration is on.
#2 is simply a less wordy summary of your assumption above.
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So which of the off court incidents were completely within Buzz's control??!! NONE of the incidents including the issue with Monarch are completely in Buzz's control. To state Buzz has complete control over other's decision making processes is idiotic Sultan. Come on.
Newbill. And I guess you think Buzz's mantra should be "the buck stops somewhere...over there..."
So if Larry is doing what the leadership of the University "wants" him to do - then frighteningly we have an even bigger issue - an issue of an academia jealous about the profile of the basketball program, head coaches salary, and apparently hell bent on trying to make MU an institution known most for its academia rather than its athletics. Sadly, better academia follows with better athletics. MU improved as a university drastically in the time Father Wild was here with regard to campus improvements, buildings, donations - and ironically this all showed up at a time when we returned to our greatest hoops prominence since Al McGuire.
It isn't about necessarily being "jelous," it is about wanting a coach to oversee a program that is less in the headlines for off the court issues. I don't think anyone is arguing that basketball isn't important to MU. Under this administration they went deep into the bank for Isaac Chew for instance. I think they want off the court accountability in return.
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Do we know who reported it to MU or NCAA?
Sounds like MU went to quite the length to disprove Monarch. Checking video cameras, etc.
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I agree with Sultan that you have to be an idiot to not know basketball program means a great deal to the university. Question is does Fr. P think he has better option than Buzz to continue the success? New leaders often have different ideas than the old ones and that is the issue IMO. Biggest cloud over Buzz remains the VB issue and how it was handled. Agree with me or not, but I think hard to argue that as long as Buzz is coach the VB issue is open season for outsiders to question program.
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The current administration did not hire Buzz. The implications are self-explanatory.
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Even if MU did not make the tournament, why would Buzz leave with the 414 trio coming in? I am not worried about having a bad year. I am worried about the next 18-22 year old doing something stupid.
The lucky to make the tournament was in reference to if Buzz left due to the administration and being worried about the caliber of coach that would want to come here if the administration is being unreasonable. For the record, I have no idea if they are or not, but based on this board it seems like a possibility.
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Biggest cloud over Buzz remains the VB issue and how it was handled. Agree with me or not, but I think hard to argue that as long as Buzz is coach the VB issue is open season for outsiders to question program.
You mean the fight outside QDoba? How was that handled poorly?
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Biggest cloud over Buzz remains the VB issue and how it was handled. Agree with me or not, but I think hard to argue that as long as Buzz is coach the VB issue is open season for outsiders Badger Fans to question program.
No one outside of Madison cares one single iota about the Vander Orange scenario. No one. In all honesty, I'd guess that if you said "Vander Orange" to 98% of college basketball fans, they wouldn't even get the reference.
I like you, Goose, but this is a case of making Wormwood out of a molehill. And as far as the other Vander issues, again, he's kept his nose clean for the most part for the past year. Unless you constantly troll the Vadger websites, you won't hear boo about any of this. And who cares what those idiots say? They think that basketball was invented in 1994.
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Litehouse
I do not think ANYONE cares about the issue on Wells St.. The alleged sexual assault and handling of assault has left a longer lasting impression with some. Truthfully I have no feelings on the topic that I would care to share, but others do share their thoughts on the topic.
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This situation is very interesting in studying the reactions on this board, mainly because the Catholic background on stressing an objective morality. Here are a couple of scenarios...how would you feel?...let's assume there was a "no tolerance edict" in place from the past ills of the program (which to many is pretty well known or assumed).
- A signed high school senior who has been admitted to MU, comes to MU in May to play in an open gym, check out the school before he starts summer school. Two assistants have quit or are looking at new jobs, a staffer has also quit. The head coach and one staffer soon to be assistant are out on the road recruiting. Monarch is in town to supervise the program. The recruit forgets his basketball gear and Monarch loans him what would be his MU allotment in a couple of weeks when he officially starts school so he can play, perhaps assuming the kid will just store the gear in his locker-to be. Monarch learns at the end of the weekend that the kid doesn't have a ride home, so he drives him home, but the kid forgets to leave his gear at MU. Kid shows up at MU a couple of weeks later for summer school and AD staff notice he already has MU issued gear. Monarch tells his lies, denying, and cameras confirm the opposite.
- Second scenario: A transfer commits to MU. Most of the above scenario the same...but the kid flies from AZ so he doesn't bring his packed gear. After his visit, same gear scenario, but Monarch finds out that he also needs to get to very ill relative's house in an adjoining state for the weekend, so Monarch drives him...gear gets noticed on return, and then Monarch repeats his mortal sin of lying.
- Third scenario: Another JUCO player from Texas (Monarch's home state) decides to take the trip up north to actually visit the school he committed to. Forgets gear as it is packed back home due to his soon to be return visit to start school. Same scenario but Monarch drives him to O'Hare in Chicago as American flies there to Dallas as the kid hasn't made any ride arrangements, coming from a rural area. Kid returns, AD staff and Monarch repeat the same scenario. AD and outside counsel quiz kid, there is talk off sitting him out games and NCAA violations, and kid gets stressed and worried and talks...and decides another program now is best.
- A recruit comes up from Chicago...has not committed, is on an unofficial, Monarch gives him gear and drives him back to Chicago while recruiting him the whole way. Monarch lies and the cycle is repeated.
Do all these scenarios bother each of you equally? All are secondary, and all involve Monarch lying. In all, Monarch deserves to be fired as a result. Only the last one would be a serious black mark on Buzz in my mind.
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When you go to bed at night, are you scared that the "jealous academia" might jump out of the closet and beat you with their books?
Weird...as are most of your posts.
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Wrong! This is the Penn State/Joe Pa reference from a few pages ago.
... welcome to 2012 where the head coach is punished for anything that goes wrong. He is expected to set a standard so that assistants do not violate rules and lie and players to do get ticketed by the local police.
Well I sure hope you happen to be the manager of people and one day one of your staff gets in a fight when provoked and antagonized, or lies, and people start calling for your head and suggesting you deserve to get fired.
Pretty big leap you have taken 84 to think that because of the Penn State situation, all scenarios of player and coach conduct are to be looked at through the same lens.
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Newbill. And I guess you think Buzz's mantra should be "the buck stops somewhere...over there..."
It isn't about necessarily being "jelous," it is about wanting a coach to oversee a program that is less in the headlines for off the court issues. I don't think anyone is arguing that basketball isn't important to MU. Under this administration they went deep into the bank for Isaac Chew for instance. I think they want off the court accountability in return.
So there is exactly 1 off the court issue that you can pin on Buzz - Newbill? I've never said the administration doesn't care about basketball. They'd be totally idiotic to not care about it. But, perhaps like you, and others here - they seem to think coaches or people should be able to exert an uncanny ability to be present 24x7 with another 13 human beings and ensure they don't ever make a decision that gets them in trouble. Step back for a minute and think of how ridiculous this thought process is. The administration can bring in another coach, and I can guarantee within 4 years, there will be some off court issues....now nobody may care, because the team could be so irrelevant that it isn't even newsworthy.
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So there is exactly 1 off the court issue that you can pin on Buzz - Newbill? I've never said the administration doesn't care about basketball. They'd be totally idiotic to not care about it. But, perhaps like you, and others here - they seem to think coaches or people should be able to exert an uncanny ability to be present 24x7 with another 13 human beings and ensure they don't ever make a decision that gets them in trouble. Step back for a minute and think of how ridiculous this thought process is. The administration can bring in another coach, and I can guarantee within 4 years, there will be some off court issues....now nobody may care, because the team could be so irrelevant that it isn't even newsworthy.
There have been plenty of issues related to Buzz's program, that have been detailed here over and over. I happen to think that Buzz holds responsibility for many of these, even if he wasn't directly involved....like many leaders do. I can see why the MU administration wants to cut down on those and is going to hold Buzz responsible at some level.
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There have been plenty of issues related to Buzz's program, that have been detailed here over and over. I happen to think that Buzz holds responsibility for many of these, even if he wasn't directly involved....like many leaders do. I can see why the MU administration wants to cut down on those and is going to hold Buzz responsible at some level.
Issues that don't go on at a vast majority of Top 25 basketball or football schools? Hell for that matter even Top 100, Division 1, 2 and 3? Which issues are so outlandish and alarming that give you concern? Do you subscribe to guilty until proven innocent mindset with regard to the sex assault? Think MPD and Public Safety just found no probable cause, because there wasn't any probably cause?
But out of curiosity...please - which other issues besides Newbill do you feel Buzz holds responsibility for?
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I have already answered your question. I am not going to essentially type the same response because you don't like what I have written.
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Issues that don't go on at a vast majority of Top 25 basketball or football schools? Hell for that matter even Top 100, Division 1, 2 and 3? Which issues are so outlandish and alarming that give you concern? Do you subscribe to guilty until proven innocent mindset with regard to the sex assault? Think MPD and Public Safety just found no probable cause, because there wasn't any probably cause?
But out of curiosity...please - which other issues besides Newbill do you feel Buzz holds responsibility for?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zMOQ61MHMns/T86r-1OkZoI/AAAAAAAAPmg/OQv7-JjGjjU/s1600/monkey-with-a-gun.png)
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I have already answered your question. I am not going to essentially type the same response because you don't like what I have written.
No Sultan, you haven't answered my question - you said Newbill - in response to my question asking you which of the off court incidents does Buzz Williams have personal control over? So what off court incidents does Buzz Williams have personal control over? Do you truly expect another human being to be able to exert such influence over 18-22 year old men that they NEVER, ever, ever make a mistake??
Is it that hard for you to acknowledge perhaps just maybe, for just once in your Scoop career - that your position is wrong?
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No Sultan, you haven't answered my question - you said Newbill - in response to my question asking you which of the off court incidents does Buzz Williams have personal control over? So what off court incidents does Buzz Williams have personal control over? Do you truly expect another human being to be able to exert such influence over 18-22 year old men that they NEVER, ever, ever make a mistake??
Reading....Is....Fundamental....
"There have been plenty of issues related to Buzz's program, that have been detailed here over and over."
If you don't understand exactly what I am referring to, I can't help that. But I am not going to engage in a silly debate about each issue because you make stuff up to "prove" your points...
..."jilted lover" to excuse the sexual assault allegations
..."Buzz emailed me" to ensure that the JS comments offended him
...and now exuberant high-fiving to excuse the fact that he was celebrating with his mortal enemy
Laughable.
Is it that hard for you to acknowledge perhaps just maybe, for just once in your Scoop career - that your position is wrong?
I have been wrong plenty of times. But at least, I don't make sh*t up ...
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Reading....Is....Fundamental....
"There have been plenty of issues related to Buzz's program, that have been detailed here over and over."
If you don't understand exactly what I am referring to, I can't help that. But I am not going to engage in a silly debate about each issue because you make stuff up to "prove" your points...
..."jilted lover" to excuse the sexual assault allegations
..."Buzz emailed me" to ensure that the JS comments offended him
...and now exuberant high-fiving to excuse the fact that he was celebrating with his mortal enemy
Laughable.
I have been wrong plenty of times. But at least, I don't make sh*t up ...
And at least I don't act as if I'm a program insider, unlike you who only passes along information you get from being a premium content subscriber to IWB's board!! You are no more of a program insider than any of the posters here yet try to come off as one. Talk about a laughable!!
Almost as laughable as not being able to answer the question - what program issues that Buzz has personal control over other than Newbill would you like to see corrected??
Is Buzz supposed to get in the middle of the sex act between his player and the alleged victim? Why even cite that as an example?!! Do you subscribe to the guilty until proven innocent theory - because you are aware there were no charges brought against the players, correct? But hey, blame it on Buzz because he wasn't there to intervene between the dynamics of a relationship between 18-22 year old college students.
Give it up already Sultan - you really are embarrassing yourself in this thread.
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Mods. Just a suggestion....time to lock this thread down.
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And at least I don't act as if I'm a program insider, unlike you who only passes along information you get from being a premium content subscriber to IWB's board!! You are no more of a program insider than any of the posters here yet try to come off as one. Talk about a laughable!!
Don't make accusations that you can't back up. What exactly have I shared from IWB's board over here? Seriously...there are a number of people here that are members of that board, so they should be able to back you up. Go ahead. If you are going to make an accusation, back it up with proof...or back down.
Or is this simply another made up "fact" to "prove" your "point?"
The only thing I claimed to know is that a player was in serious academic trouble. I was right about that, but I knew about that long before I even joined IWB's board. (I only joined the premium board in May or June.) In fact, the "source" I had on that is pretty laughable. I could give you 1,000 guesses and you would never get it.
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Well I sure hope you happen to be the manager of people and one day one of your staff gets in a fight when provoked and antagonized, or lies, and people start calling for your head and suggesting you deserve to get fired.
Pretty big leap you have taken 84 to think that because of the Penn State situation, all scenarios of player and coach conduct are to be looked at through the same lens.
Ners, please try and keep up. The world is changing and you're stuck in the past. Go back three pages or so as this was all explained. College coaches now live by new rules. These new rules have caused bobby petrino, Bruce pearl and Jim tressel to become former coaches
In case you too lazy, read this ...
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33422.msg406558#msg406558
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Ners, please try and keep up. The world is chaning and your stuck in the past. Go back three pages or so as this was all explained. College coaches now live by new rules. These new rules have caused bobby petrine, Bruce pearl and Jim tressel to become former coaches
In case you too lazy, read this ...
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33422.msg406558#msg406558
84 try to keep up.... your and you're are two different parts of speech.
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Ners, please try and keep up. The world is chaning and your stuck in the past. Go back three pages or so as this was all explained. College coaches now live by new rules. These new rules have caused bobby petrine, Bruce pearl and Jim tressel to become former coaches
In case you too lazy, read this ...
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33422.msg406558#msg406558
84 try to keep up.... your and you're are two different parts of speech.
...says the guy who doesn't know how to correctly use the quote posts feature. Nicely done. Try to keep up. Use the [/quote] to end a quote, and start you own.
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Why is Newbill considered a situation.
So we got a recruit who was only a two star recruit and he aint playing well in open gyms. Jamil Wilson comes along who will have a bigger impact so we drop a recruit for a better one? I dont get what the problem is. We are a big time program and this happens all the time in big time programs.
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We've jumped the shark. 14 pages and everything has been said... multiple times. The other threads related to this post will remain open, but to those driving this bus, take a breather.