[Cracked Sidewalks] Answer to MU Scoop Question: All-Time MU Starting 5 and Updated Top 50 Players

[bilsu]

I believe without looking it up the difference was Lloyd Walton and Earl Tatum.

1975-76
C. Whitehead
PF Ellis
SF Tatum
2g Lee
PG Walton

vs

1976-77

C. Whitehead
PF Ellis
SF Neary
2G Lee
PG Boylan

Tatum was significantly better than Neary and Walton was better than Boylan.

[dgies9156]

I believe without looking it up the difference was Lloyd Walton and Earl Tatum.

1975-76
C. Whitehead
PF Ellis
SF Tatum
2g Lee
PG Walton

vs

1976-77

C. Whitehead
PF Ellis
SF Neary
2G Lee
PG Boylan

Tatum was significantly better than Neary and Walton was better than Boylan.

I agree on Tatum over Neary but you need to take a close at the playtime Neary got. Al started Neary because he was a senior. He was quickly replaced -- usually in the first three to four minutes -- with either Bernard Toone or Ulice Payne. Tatum was better than either but the reality was that margin between Tatum and either Toone or Payne was not nearly as great.

The sad thing was the amount of wasted talent with BT. He was good but not nearly as good as he could have been. Tatum was one of the truly great players who graced our uniform. Al called him the black Jerry West.

NO argument on Lloyd over Boylan. Lloyd was materially better.

[bilsu]

I could be wrong, but I believe Toone and Payne were also on the 1976 team.

[Goose]

The 75-76 team was better than championship team in my opinion. Both great teams but Earl Tatum and Lloyd were special players.

[Lennys Tap]

Walton was better than Boylan (though Jimmy was very good/clutch in the run to the national title). Tatum was better than Toone (Neary started but didn't play big minutes in the tourney). But Bo, Butch and Whitehead were all a year older, wiser and better by March of 1977. In the regular season, the 75-76 team was better, but not in March.
The 70-71 team (28-1 - the one loss coming by 1 point after Meminger was called for 3 offensive fouls and was disqualified for the only time in his career) with Dean, Allie McGuire, Chones, Lackey et al was probably MU's best ever.

[Goose]

Agreed with 70-71 team. That is best team in MU history IMO. Tough to debate 75-76 and championship team as both were stacked. I was big lucky Lloyd and Tatum fan, but quickly learned to love Boylan as well.

[4everwarriors]

Having lived it, I'm down with what Lenny and Goose are preachin'.

[dgies9156]

The 75-76 team was better than championship team in my opinion. Both great teams but Earl Tatum and Lloyd were special players.

Will we be having this debate about teams that will arise in the next 10 years?????

[Lennys Tap]

Will we be having this debate about teams that will arise in the next 10 years?????

Hope so.

[🏀]

Will we be having this debate about teams that will arise in the next 10 years?????

Pretty much impossible.

[Dawson Rental]

Will we be having this debate about teams that will arise in the next 10 years?????

Pretty much impossible.

You speak the truth, PTM.

Damn you, damn you to hell!!!!

[MU82]

If we had a three-point shot from 1974 until 1978, Gary Rosenberger would have been graduated as Marquette's all-time leading scorer and probably one of the best guards we ever had.

Well, we did have the three-point shot when Steve Novak played, and he was (and is) among the best at it in the history of basketball at any level. And he contributed all four years. And he had great teammates who set him up. And he was the team's best player and go-to guy as a senior. Yet he's not even in the top 10 in team history in scoring.

So pardon me for not buying into the notion that Gary Rosenberger would have been the No. 1 scorer in team history. You have to be able to do more than bomb away just to stay on the floor.

[MU82]

I believe without looking it up the difference was Lloyd Walton and Earl Tatum.

1975-76
C. Whitehead
PF Ellis
SF Tatum
2g Lee
PG Walton

vs

1976-77

C. Whitehead
PF Ellis
SF Neary
2G Lee
PG Boylan

Tatum was significantly better than Neary and Walton was better than Boylan.

The 76-77 group was just one of those teams that got hot at the right time. Al often said it wasn't his best team, said "several" others were better. There were many national observers who felt the Warriors didn't even deserve an NCAA bid that year.

By every measure but one, the 75-76 Warriors were hands down better than the 76-77 Warriors. That one measure, of course, was the big one!

[dgies9156]

Pretty much impossible.

The only way I hope we WONT be having this debate in 10 years is if we're all dead, in heaven and God will decide it for us after consulting Al.

[4everwarriors]

Nah, there's a few here, like F*ckin', who are goin' directly to hell.

[bamamarquettefan]

All such great comments and insights, and great to see ESPN had the same all-time team.  Just a couple of points on items raised.

Certainly if you insist on a true point guard then Meminger is the guy.  It's a tough balance between trying to put a team that would work on the court (e.g. not five centers) and actually insisting on the best point guard, the best shooting guard etc.  My gut is Butch Lee is our only national player of the year so he has to be on and Wade is our greatest so he has to be on, so they have the two guard spots and then you just decide which goes where, but certainly you could insist on Meminger as point and let Lee back up Wade if you wanted a list purely by position.  Honestly, to truly follow the numbers Travis Diener would be the 3rd team point guard over Doc Rivers.

Chones is the toughest case.  You look at the 49-1 record with him on the team even though Meminger and Brell left after his first year, and you have to say he may have been the greatest ever IF he had stayed.  In Win Credits, he was on pace in 1972 to have as great a year as Wade's 2003, so do you say almost the best ever or do you drop him substantially for leaving early and perhaps costing us the 1972 title (remembering Al told him to go)?  Tough call.  I do have to say the Chones teams were even greater than the 1976 team, and obviously both were much greater than the 1977 team if taking the season as a whole.

On Rosenberger, great player but I have him as our 131st best player ever.  I believe he had 7.3 points per game, so even if every point he scored had been on a two-pointer from behind what is now the arc, he would have barely averaged 10 a game for the title team, so I can't see him being near the top 10, but certainly a key part of the team.

Thanks again for reading all, and glad ESPN is giving us our due.

[Goose]

bama
First off, all great stuff. I think Butch and Wade have to be the guards on the team. Dean was awesome but Butch was at different level, especially his Jr. year. Agreed that Chones might have been best ever prior to Wade. Numners or no numbers I think Travis was better college player than Doc. Travis made everyone better and was a true winner. Doc beats him in talent but not college career IMO.

As for Rosenberger, I think great role player and not great player. He was perfect for the teams he was on but doubt his ability to help if he were on the post 78-79 teams. He was perfect fit for the time and fortunately we had him.

I will argue to some extent on the 76-77 team. Obviously a bad regular season but rose to the ocassion. We were pre season #1 and really talented and deep. I think many buy Al's talk about having several better teams than that year. I think that was vintage Al talking and I didn't buy then and still don't. That team was big time.

[Dr. Blackheart]

The 76-77 group was just one of those teams that got hot at the right time. Al often said it wasn't his best team, said "several" others were better. There were many national observers who felt the Warriors didn't even deserve an NCAA bid that year.

By every measure but one, the 75-76 Warriors were hands down better than the 76-77 Warriors. That one measure, of course, was the big one!

The 1977-78 team was better in talent than the the 76-77 Warriors. Every player (of course Al was gone) of consequence was back except Bo (and glue Neary). Toone, a healthy Payne, Dudley, Byrd and a frosh Oliver Lee on the front line....with Odell Ball added to back up Jay as a transfer.  Boylan, Lee, Rosie all back for their senior year.  Wasn't this the only MU team ever to actually hit #1 in the polls?

Bo was an all-time great...MU has always been at its most elite with a quality, face-up power forward.

[bilsu]

Rosenberger averaged 7.3 points pre game and the assumption was that if every basket had been a three point shot he would of averaged 10 points a game does not necessarily hold true. The three point shot would of made him more valauable and therefore would have increased his time on the floor. The cuonter argument can be made for Novak. Remove the three point shot and his playing time is probably cut in half. Novak was a great shooter, but not known as a great defender or rebounder.

[Otule's Glass Eye]

Only player I can think of that is probably close to being in this that isnt is Scott Merritt.

[dgies9156]

The 1977-78 team was better in talent than the the 76-77 Warriors. Every player (of course Al was gone) of consequence was back except Bo (and glue Neary). Toone, a healthy Payne, Dudley, Byrd and a frosh Oliver Lee on the front line....with Odell Ball added to back up Jay as a transfer.  Boylan, Lee, Rosie all back for their senior year.  Wasn't this the only MU team ever to actually hit #1 in the polls?

Bo was an all-time great...MU has always been at its most elite with a quality, face-up power forward.

No, the 1971-1972 team hit number 1 for a few weeks before Chones left. UCLA had an uncharacteristic loss somewhere in there and we were undefeated at the time.

As for 1977-1978, no way. I was a senior and that team was good but something wasn't right about it. I'm not sure what but I suspect it is that Hank didn't have control of the team anywhere near the way Al did. Even before the worst game in Marquette history -- against Miami of Ohio in a debacle that still breaks my heart -- there were intangible signs something wasn't right. They played well, but the killer instinct was lacking.

Either Bo or Maurice Lucas, for my mind, were the two greatest Warriors ever. Lucas tpified what it meant to be a Warrior and without Bo there would have been no 1977. George Thompson was special and so was Bob Lackey and Dean Meminger, not to mentuion Earl Tatum. But Bo was the greatest and Lucas was a close second. I do agree Chones was among our best ever as well.

[Dr. Blackheart]

No, the 1971-1972 team hit number 1 for a few weeks before Chones left. UCLA had an uncharacteristic loss somewhere in there and we were undefeated at the time.

Here are those glorious weeks:  w/o 1/26/72 through 2/2/72

http://statsheet.com/mcb/rankings/AP?id=1971-01-26

[Marqevans]

Butch Lee a better player than Dean Meminger?  Most likely true.

Butch Lee a better PG than Dean Meminger?  Delusional.

One thing in Dean's defense is that Al elected to go to the N I T in 1969-1970 instead of the NCAA tournament. They won the NIT championship but Dean most likely would have led them to the final four that year.

[4everwarriors]

Dean was NIT MVP and the exposure in the Big Apple helped not only Dean, but MU as well, especially when Pistol Pete met defeat. Al was the shrewest cat I've ever run across and it was a beautiful thing to be on the periphery of.

[muwarrior69]

The '71-'72 team was the best team. I can remember going to the Garden that year where a very good Fordham team took us to double overtime. We were just too deep of a team. If Chones did not go pro I know in my gut we would have won it all that year. Then again will never know.