[Cracked Sidewalks] Answer to MU Scoop Question: All-Time MU Starting 5 and Updated Top 50 Players

[CrackedSidewalksSays]

Answer to MU Scoop Question: All-Time MU Starting 5 and Updated Top 50 Players

Written by: noreply@blogger.com (bamamarquettefan1)

Calling Pudner (Bama)...if he wasn't so damn busy electing Presidents...from his book it is Bo, George, DW3, Butch and Dean.  I don't know where Jae would fit in statistically but I assume high." - Dr. Blackheart on MU Scoop

I'm sure this is an evil plot - get that guy who writes for Cracked Sidewalks and is a National Co-Chair for Romney's Faith and Values Coalition sidetracked by asking him who Marquette's all-time Starting 5 should be.  I get it.  OK, just kidding.  But to be sure I was answering this correctly, I did run Crowder's final numbers based on the Ultimate Hoops Guide - Marquette University methodology, and he came in 9th all-time.

You could argue that if you put Bo Ellis at power forward that Crowder makes the team, and in fact I actually believe he should make the team anyway because he and Jerel McNeal would rank higher than 9th and 12th all-time if we could adjust for how much tougher their schedules were than the 1970s stars.

However, after running all the numbers again, but choosing the top three MU teams of all-time by position, I actually end up with the same starting five as walk-on poster cbowe3.  I have Crowder as the 2nd team small forward behind Ellis (better season, but Ellis better career over 4 years).  You can argue positions such as George Thompson really playing front line at MU, but I tried to put them at their best position, and he was a guard in the pros.  I list the rank of the top 3 teams, as well as the Top 50 of all-time.

Of course, to do all this I basically had to write another chapter in the book, so that will come later.  Now that I've lost half my readers by mentioning my politics, I'm going back to work on politics, but have the extra chapter posting later.
table.tableizer-table {border: 1px solid #CCC; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;} .tableizer-table td {padding: 4px; margin: 3px; border: 1px solid #ccc;} .tableizer-table th {background-color: #104E8B; color: #FFF; font-weight: bold;} 

Pos Rnk All-Time First Team Last Season
sg	1	Dwyane Wade	03 last year
sf	2	Maurice (Bo) Ellis	77 last year
pg	3	Alfred (Butch) Lee	78 last year
pf	6	Jim Chones	72 last year
c	7	Maurice Lucas	74 last year
		All-Time Second Team
sg	4	George Thompson	69 last year
pg	5	Dean Meminger	71 last year
pf	8	Don Kojis	61 last year
sf	9	Jae Crowder	12 last year
c	11	Terry Rand	56 last year
		All-Time 3rd Team
sf	10	Earl Tatum	76 last year
sg	12	Jerel McNeal	09 last year
c	14	Jerome Whitehead	78 last year
pf	16	Larry McNeil	73 last year
pg	20	Glen (Doc) Rivers	83 last year
		Rest of the Top 50
	13	Dave Quabius	39 last year
	15	Tony Smith	90 last year
	17	Travis Diener	05 last year
	18	Jim McIlvaine	94 last year
	19	Lloyd Walton	76 last year
	21	Wesley Matthews	09 last year
	22	Bernard Toone	79 last year
	23	Dominic James	09 last year
	24	Ed Mullen	35 last year
	25	Gary Brell	71 last year
	26	Michael Wilson	82 last year
	27	Bob Lackey	72 last year
	28	DJO	12 last year
	29	Jimmy Butler	11 last year
	30	Joe Thomas	70 last year
	31	Gene Berce	48 last year
	32	Steve Novak	06 last year
	33	Joseph (Red) Dunn	25 last year
	34	Richard Quinn	25 last year
	35	Aaron Hutchins	98 last year
	36	Allie McGuire	73 last year
	37	Lazar Hayward	09 last year
	38	Tony Miller	95 last year
	39	Walt Mangham	60 last year
	40	Amal McCaskill	96 last year
	41	Chris Crawford	97 last year
	42	Ric Cobb	70 last year
	43	Ron Curry	93 last year
	44	Marcus Washington	74 last year
	45	Cordell Henry	02 last year
	46	Brian Wardle	01 last year
	47	Damon Key	94 last year
	48	Russ Wittberger	55 last year
	49	Robert Jackson	03 last year
	50	Kerry Trotter	86 last year

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2012/08/calling-pudner-bama.html

[bilsu]

Younger people just do not realize how good Bo Ellis was. Played on 1974 NCAA runner up team and 1977 national championship. He anchored the back of McGuire's press. With his height and agility nobody was going to try to beat the press going long. He was on teams that had other strong rebounders and still averaged 10 boards a game. I believe both he and Lucas averaged 10 boards the year they teamed together. He could score, but did not need to, because there were other great scorers on the team with him. Ignoring the pro years, I could make an argument that Ellis was a better college player than Wade. Adding either to this year's team would be great. Ellis would guarantee us being a final four. Wade would make us a likely final four team. Wade would become the focal point on offense, while Ellis would blend in and do everything needed to win.

[Earl Tatum]

HEY--- TREVOR POWELL 1987-1990, SAM WORTHEN 1978-1979.

Worthen was the team in his two years. Nobody could score but one-on-one Sam. Powell was a
hard-nosed board man, very good inside who scored when he needed to.

[Earl Tatum]

Where is Sam Worthen and Trevor Powell?

[PJDunn]

in the same neighborhood as Terry Reason.

[lurch91]

Powell was a
hard-nosed board man, very good inside who scored when he needed to.

Trevor scored because he HAD to, there was no one else on the team that could score consistently.  That fade-away jumper in the block annoyed the hell out of me, but he had to shoot that way as he was giving up 2-5 inches in the post every game.

[bamamarquettefan]

POWELL 62nd.  As great a Powell was, the system doesn't quite have him in the top 50 due to his records of 10-18, 13-15, 15-14 and 11-18.  It credits him for 10 of MUs 49 wins while he was there, but basically the math concludes that as good as Tony Smith was during that time, if Trevor was also a truly elite player then a 1-2 punch would have had better records that that.  I didn't see the team play at all then, so it sounds like those of you who saw him are confident he was Elite, but crunching the numbers the book had him at 55th and Butler, Crowder, Hayward, James, DJO, Matthews and McNeal have passed him since to put him at 62nd - still easily in the top 10% of all MU players ever.

WORTHEN 28th.  Great catch on Sam Worthen - I have fixed the list on Cracked Sidewalks.  For the prospective of younger fans, Sam rated one spot ahead of DJO and Butler as the 28th best player in MU history.

When I ran the updated rankings, for some reason Wesley Matthews showed up both #21 and #28 so I assumed 28th was his old ranking in the book and deleted the latter, but then realized that entry say "1980 last year" and realized I had somehow replaced his name.

A longer explanation then you needed, but bottom line is he was 28th except for a typo.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

This is the best list put together yet. The only quibbles I have are Doc and Wesley being too high, but I really think, in general, it's as close to perfect as it can get.

Great job!

[Marqevans]

Younger people just do not realize how good Bo Ellis was. Played on 1974 NCAA runner up team and 1977 national championship. He anchored the back of McGuire's press. With his height and agility nobody was going to try to beat the press going long. He was on teams that had other strong rebounders and still averaged 10 boards a game. I believe both he and Lucas averaged 10 boards the year they teamed together. He could score, but did not need to, because there were other great scorers on the team with him. Ignoring the pro years, I could make an argument that Ellis was a better college player than Wade. Adding either to this year's team would be great. Ellis would guarantee us being a final four. Wade would make us a likely final four team. Wade would become the focal point on offense, while Ellis would blend in and do everything needed to win.

How do you factor in that there were no three pointers and being forced to play on the freshman team instead of the varsity for those players that played in the seventies and before.

[bamamarquettefan]

Thank you! I started at cracked sidewalks with a pretty weak attempt at a list, but a lot of great feedback helped me build a system that I think works pretty well.

[bamamarquettefan]

How do you factor in that there were no three pointers and being forced to play on the freshman team instead of the varsity for those players that played in the seventies and before.

Great question.

The 3-pointer does not throw anything off because you are judged in the context of how many points your team gives us, and your opponents can make 3-pointers if you can.  For example, if you average 10 points a game and your team gives up 50 points a game when there are no three pointers then you are scoring 20% of what it takes to win, and then if you counted three pointers and you hit 2 of them and your opponent hit 10 during the same game then you would have 12 points and they would have 60, so you are still scoring 20% of what you need to win.  A particular style of player such as Cubillan would be better in a 3-point era, while Gardner would be even more valuable in an era without 3-pointers, but overall each player has a different chance.

There is a slight disadvantage for players like George Thompson who lost a varsity year be not being allowed to play freshman year.  It is not a huge disadvantage, because the system focuses heavily on your best season so you are just losing what is almost every players weakest season - his freshman year.  However, I did pose a question in the book, "If George Thompson were allowed to play as a freshman, could have have equaled Ellis for the best career?"  The 1967 Media Guide shows that Thompson shattered the freshman scoring record while averaging 23.7 points and 12.5 rebounds per game in freshman play.  He then moved up and improved MU from 14-12 to 21-9 even though their star Tom Flynn had graduated.  Since Thompson had 5.7 Win Credits as a sophomore he might have been able to get the 5.2 he needed as a freshman to tie Bo Ellis all-time career Marquette total of 25.7.  However, in the overall rating, even adding a freshman year at that level would have left him just short of 3rd place Butch Lee in the overall rating.

[Marqevans]

Great question.

The 3-pointer does not throw anything off because you are judged in the context of how many points your team gives us, and your opponents can make 3-pointers if you can.  For example, if you average 10 points a game and your team gives up 50 points a game when there are no three pointers then you are scoring 20% of what it takes to win, and then if you counted three pointers and you hit 2 of them and your opponent hit 10 during the same game then you would have 12 points and they would have 60, so you are still scoring 20% of what you need to win.  A particular style of player such as Cubillan would be better in a 3-point era, while Gardner would be even more valuable in an era without 3-pointers, but overall each player has a different chance.

There is a slight disadvantage for players like George Thompson who lost a varsity year be not being allowed to play freshman year.  It is not a huge disadvantage, because the system focuses heavily on your best season so you are just losing what is almost every players weakest season - his freshman year.  However, I did pose a question in the book, "If George Thompson were allowed to play as a freshman, could have have equaled Ellis for the best career?"  The 1967 Media Guide shows that Thompson shattered the freshman scoring record while averaging 23.7 points and 12.5 rebounds per game in freshman play.  He then moved up and improved MU from 14-12 to 21-9 even though their star Tom Flynn had graduated.  Since Thompson had 5.7 Win Credits as a sophomore he might have been able to get the 5.2 he needed as a freshman to tie Bo Ellis all-time career Marquette total of 25.7.  However, in the overall rating, even adding a freshman year at that level would have left him just short of 3rd place Butch Lee in the overall rating.

Thanks for the feedback. I have to wonder though players like Jim Chones and Maurice Lucas would have certainly had very productive freshman years. As it was, they both left after junior year and really only had 2 years on the varsity. In fact one year Marquette would have had Chones, McNeil, and Lucas playing together which would have produced incredible numbers.

[The Process]

Wasn't Zar's last year '10?  You've got him listed as '09.

Otherwise, another brilliant post!

[dgies9156]

Great list and it's overall hard to disagree with the conclusions.

About the only challenge I would raise is perhaps moving Jerome Whitehead above Jim Chones. Jim Chones was probably more talented and a better basketball player. But, without Jerome we don't win a national title. Period. Was he the catalyst that made it happen? No. Those folks are already on the list. But if you doubt me, go back and look at the tapes of the 1977 NCAA semi-final game with Carolina Charlotte and reflect on the last play of the game.

Chones a very great Warrior and one is left with the real question of, "what if..." If he was able to stay with us through his senior year, would there be more than one Championship banner in the Bradley Center today? We don't have that question with Jerome.

[Marqevans]

One advantage the great players of the 70's had was that there was no shot clock.  The importance of having a lead was magnified as the ability to go into a 4 corners offense and hang on to the ball actually became a great defense.  It limited the actual scoring time in a game which I think drove up the percentage of points scored in a game for these impact players.

[Earl Tatum]

bamamarquette-- A great list --  GOOD JOB.

[bilsu]

The three pointer does throw the statistics off. Players like Bob Wolf, Jeff Sewell and Gary Rosenberger would have benefited greatly by current day three point line. Ellis was a freshmen the second year they were eligible to play. Besides the two final four teams he was on he was also on what I consider to be MU's best team. 1975-76 team that went 27-2, losing to the undefeated Indiana national championship team. In his four year career he won a national championship and lost to the national champion twice. His sophomore year his team lost to Kentucky in the NCAA tournament.

[slack00]

They've started releasing schools from 20 to 11 in about 15 minute increments.  Purdue and Utah were tied at 20.  I imagine we'll know sometime in the next two hours.

[Dawson Rental]

What stands out for me is the lack of point guards compared with other positions.  Hence the need to classify Butch Lee and Doc Rivers as point guards even though that was not the position they played when they were at Marquette.

After Meminger, MU had Diener, Walton, James, Tony Miller and Cordell Henry.  That's six and you'd expect 10 on a list of top 50 players.  You could add Sam Worthen who came to MU as a point guard, but who had to be a point forward due to MU's lack of size at the time.  Aaron Hutchins you can't add because he was an explosive 2 guard who was called a point guard because that is what you do when you're starting a 5' 10" two guard.

The unknown for me is Allie McGuire.  I just missed him, so I'm not sure if he was more of a 2 guard or a point guard or whatever his Dad wanted him to be at the time.

[slack00]

All-Time First Team
Last Season
 
sg 1 Dwyane Wade 03 last year
sf 2 Maurice (Bo) Ellis 77 last year
pg 3 Alfred (Butch) Lee 78 last year
pf 6 Jim Chones 72 last year
c 7 Maurice Lucas 74 last year


Bingo.  Marquette in at #17 and you nailed the first team.

[Dawson Rental]

All-Time First Team
Last Season
 
sg 1 Dwyane Wade 03 last year
sf 2 Maurice (Bo) Ellis 77 last year
pg 3 Alfred (Butch) Lee 78 last year
pf 6 Jim Chones 72 last year
c 7 Maurice Lucas 74 last year


Bingo.  Marquette in at #17 and you nailed the first team.

Butch Lee a better player than Dean Meminger?  Most likely true.

Butch Lee a better PG than Dean Meminger?  Delusional.

[bilsu]

All-Time First Team
Last Season
 
sg 1 Dwyane Wade 03 last year
sf 2 Maurice (Bo) Ellis 77 last year
pg 3 Alfred (Butch) Lee 78 last year
pf 6 Jim Chones 72 last year
c 7 Maurice Lucas 74 last year


Bingo.  Marquette in at #17 and you nailed the first team.

I am going to protest Chones being on this list, since he left 3/4th of way through his last season. He was good enough to be on list, but his leaving diluted it. I was a freshmen at MU when he left. We went from being the second best team to UCLA at 22-0 to finishing 24-5 (?). That does show his impact he had, but it also shows the impact of him leaving.

[Dr. Blackheart]

ESPN list is out and their first team matches Bama's. To no surprise.

50 in 50 starting five (1962-present)
G – Butch Lee (1975-78)
G – Dwyane Wade (2002-03)
F – Bo Ellis (1974-77)
F – Maurice Lucas (1973-74)
C – Jim Chones (1971-72)

Top options off the bench
Dean Meminger (1969-71)
George Thompson (1967-69)
Doc Rivers (1981-83)

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/62996/50-in-50-series-no-17-marquette

[Lennys Tap]

Butch Lee a better player than Dean Meminger?  Most likely true.

Butch Lee a better PG than Dean Meminger?  Delusional.

True and truer.

[dgies9156]

The three pointer does throw the statistics off. Players like Bob Wolf, Jeff Sewell and Gary Rosenberger would have benefited grealy by current day three point line. Ellis was a freshemn the second year they were eligible to play. Besides the two final four teams he was on he was also on what I consider to be MU's best team. 1975-76 team that went 27-2, losing to the undefeated Indiana national championship team. In his four year career he won a national champiosip and lost to the national champion twice. His sophomore year his team lost to Kentucky in the NCAA tournament.

If we had a three-point shot from 1974 until 1978, Gary Rosenberger would have been graduated as Marquette's all-time leading scorer and probably one of the best guards we ever had. The guy could shoot the lights out but was of limited utility in an era when shooting from 70 feet away counted the same as shooting from 7 inches away.

Rosenberger tended to be used when Boylan or Lee needed a break or when Al wanted to open up the defense so Butch could do his thing. Rosenberger's 20 footers tended to build operating room for Butch, Bo and the guys underneath.

I agree with the comment about the 1975-1976 team insofar as the difference between that team and 1976-1977 team was Lloyd Walton, himself a really great guard and genuinely nice guy. The rest of the core of the team, Butch, Bo and Jerome, where there both years. That was the team that beat the Soviet Union's (Professional) Olympic Team that had stolen the gold medal three years before. Unfortunately, we ran into Bobby Knight (he was "Bobby" back then) and what arguably was one of the NCAA's best teams ever (next to our 1977 team, of course).

In 1977, many of us believe the team lost an edge, especially after Al announced he was retiring. The edge came back just in time to salvage a tournament bid. The rest, of course, was history.