ESPN College BK Nation's 50 in 50

[downtown85]

too lazy to look it up, where was Wisconsin ranked?

[Aughnanure]

Good topic for the future:

Pre-Al Top 5 Vs Post-Al Top 5

[BrewCity83]

too lazy to look it up, where was Wisconsin ranked?

Bwah-hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

[SaveOD238]

Given that Princeton (#22) has 289 points, we should know soon enough--I may have missed a few, but I'm not sure we have enough to climb into the top 15.

The fun fact for Princeton was that they have as many top 10 draftees as MU since '65 (two!).  Clearly we were doing more with less in the late 60's early 70's...though there were some great players on those teams.

[brewcity77]

Clearly we were doing more with less in the late 60's early 70's...though there were some great players on those teams.

Not necessarily the case. Top-10 NBA draft picks is a really, really dumb metric. Chones would have been top-10 had he been given the chance, and would anyone say Princeton has had equal talent to Marquette since 2004 because in the last 8 years we've had the same number of top-10 players? In the past 8 years, Utah, Bradley, Weber State, and Davidson all have more top-10 draft picks than Marquette, does that mean they've had better college talent on average? Heck, USC has had 2 top-10 draft picks, and I definitely wouldn't put them on the same level as Marquette from an overall talent perspective.

[LloydMooresLegs]

I'm coming up with 291, including the bonuses (which apply only for '71 and '76).  MU considers Wade, Meminger and Lee as our consensus 1st team AAs.  Not sure what constitutes 2nd team consensus--i included anyone that was 2nd team on at least one of the major lists, and excluded Helms Foundation and anyone who was only honorable mention. 

Points
15   Conference title - 5 points (3 1 for CUSA, plus 71 & 76)
9   Conference tournament title - 3 points (3--one for the GMC, plus 71 & 76)
   Win percentage 80%+ 4 points, 60-79% 2 points, 35-49 -2 points, >35% -4 points
40   80+ WP  (10 seasons)
50   60-79 WP (25 seasons)
-8   35-50 WP (4 seasons)
-8   <35 WP (2 seasons)
0   No. 1 seed - 2 points
27   NCAA tournament berth - 1 point
0   NCAA 1st-rd. win as 12-16-seed - 1 point
12   Losing in second round - 3 points
40   Sweet 16 loss - 5 pts
20   Elite Eight loss - 10 pts
15   National semifinal loss - 15 points
20   Title game loss - 20 points
25   National title - 25 points
1   NIT title - 1 point
9   First-team All-American - 3 points (Meminger, Lee, Wade)
20   Second-team All-American - 2 points (Not sure what is considered Consensus)
4   Player taken in NBA's top 10 - 2 points  (4 points)
291   TOTAL

Given that Princeton (#22) has 289 points, we should know soon enough--I may have missed a few, but I'm not sure we have enough to climb into the top 15.

Nice analysis, E.  My only question is with respect to "conference title" and "conf tourney title":  didn't MU qualify for points in years other than '71 and '76? 

Just as examples, look at '70 (finished 8, and ahead of Penn -Ivy and Drake -MVC) and '74 (finished 3).  I am not sure whether definition of major back then is different than now, and therefore would include Ivy and MVC, for example (though it did include those as "major conferences" on the web site I used). If so, could add up to a significant number of points (8 for every such year).  Potentially every year from '69 to '78?

[77ncaachamps]

I too wondered how they'll address Marquette's status as an Independent back then.

[The Equalizer]

Nice analysis, E.  My only question is with respect to "conference title" and "conf tourney title":  didn't MU qualify for points in years other than '71 and '76? 

Just as examples, look at '70 (finished 8, and ahead of Penn -Ivy and Drake -MVC) and '74 (finished 3).  I am not sure whether definition of major back then is different than now, and therefore would include Ivy and MVC, for example (though it did include those as "major conferences" on the web site I used). If so, could add up to a significant number of points (8 for every such year).  Potentially every year from '69 to '78?

I interpreted their scoring rules incorrectly--I looked at years in which there were no more than two major conference champions ranked ahead of us.

Of course, you raise the key question--what do they qualifies as a major conference? 

The other time consuming aspect behind looking this up is that you'd have to determine the conference champion and tournament champion each year from each those conferences, then map against the rankings. 

I'd guess that if we did miss any years in the window, it's 69 and 75. 

But that would still likely give us 8 additional points/year for 70, 72, 73, 74, and 77, brining the total to at least 331--and possibly 347. 

[MUfan12]

But that would still likely give us 8 additional points/year for 70, 72, 73, 74, and 77, brining the total to at least 331--and possibly 347.  

Looks like MU is #17 with 309 pts.

[Lennys Tap]

 

But that would still likely give us 8 additional points/year for 70, 72, 73, 74, and 77, brining the total to at least 331--and possibly 347. 

291, 331, 347. And the correct answer is:309. More to an accurate audit than meets the eye.

[Lennys Tap]

Interesting that ESPN ranks MU as the #37 program during the TC/Buzz years. If it were a "snapshot" where do people think we stand right now? Maybe 15-20?

[The Equalizer]

291, 331, 347. And the correct answer is:309. More to an accurate audit than meets the eye.

Actually, its what doesn't meet they eye. 

ESPN never listed what they considered a "major" conference.  Apparently its a much smaller list than first thought. 

The initial 291 estimate included two years as the equivalent of a Conference & Touranment champion ('71 and '76).  The 331 number assumed 7 years, and 347 assumed credit for all nine years from '69 to '78. 

Apparently, the right answer is closer to only 4 seasons.

[muwarrior69]

With all the conference re-alignment musical chairs going on it's nice to see MU considered a top 20 team over the last 50 years. Most of the points we got were not due to being in a BCS conference. Good to see the other non-football Catholic schools: Nova and Georgetown in there as well.

[77ncaachamps]

Interesting Poll they're running in the Marquette blog piece.

Best MU team?

I had to vote for the 1970-71 team. Despite not winning the title, they were a dominant that season. The 1973 team needs to be mentioned as well as they lost in the Championship game.

[bilsu]

Interesting that ESPN ranks MU as the #37 program during the TC/Buzz years. If it were a "snapshot" where do people think we stand right now? Maybe 15-20?

15-14, 15-14, 19-12, 19-12, 20-11, 22-12 & 22-15 are not very good records. Although the 22-15 was a sweet 16 year.

[bilsu]

Actually McGuire's best teams did not happen, because of hardship rule.

72-73
Center- Chones 6-11, senior
forward Lucas 6-8,sophomore
forward-McNeil 6-9 junior

73-74

Center-Lucas 6-8 junior
forward McNeil 6-9, senior
forward Ellis 6-9- freshman

[Lennys Tap]

15-14, 15-14, 19-12, 19-12, 20-11, 22-12 & 22-15 are not very good records. Although the 22-15 was a sweet 16 year.

Dead on, Bilsu - #37 is about right for the Crean/Buzz years up to this point - and it's moved up in the last 4 years. My point was that many here have opined that Buzz walked into a top 20 program and that just wasn't true. One senior laden top 20 team, yes, but not a top 20 program.

[MerrittsMustache]

Michigan and UNLV ranked 13-14 just goes to show that even in meaningless rankings, cheaters still prosper 

[JimmyLikesBasketball]

Bucky doesn't even make top 50

[The Process]

Bucky doesn't even make top 50

[tower912]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8298598/conference-breakdowns-50-50-rankings

Wisconsin checks in at #89.    Remember, though, to most of their fanbase, basketball didn't exist before 1994.

[Galway Eagle]

With the win last night MU is now tied with Villanova at 16.  For anybody that cares.

[Marqevans]

I like that they're doing the starting line up from the past 50 years. What would be your guys' starting 5? Mine is

PG- Butch Lee
SG- D Wade
SF- Bo Ellis
PF- Jim Chones
C- Mo Lucas

If we're going to be sticklers on position I would have Doc Rivers at the 3, and Bo at the 4.

Ball handling was so much more important in the no 3 point no shot clock era that it is tough to keep Dean Meminger off this list.

[muwarrior69]

How could George Thompson our all time scoring leader (in 3 seasons, no 3pt shot) not be considered.

[Sir Lawrence]

How could George Thompson our all time scoring leader (in 3 seasons, no 3pt shot) not be considered.

He's no longer #1 on MU's list.  He's now third, behind McNeil and Hayward.