Milwaukee Public Schools

[mu03eng]

Those aren't men slaving away in Asian garment factories, cleaning your hotel room or working the checkout line at the Kroeger.

How about the Chinese men used in a 60 ton press to make stampings?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDG9XtIuDY0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[MarsupialMadness]

This is the schedule Chicago Public Schools has been experimenting with in a select number of schools for a few years now.  It's called Track E and is what they call year-round schooling.

http://www.cps.edu/Programs/DistrictInitiatives/FullDay/Documents/SY12_13CalendarTRACK_E.pdf

[ringout]

You can think its a sexist view all you want but you are drawing conclusions not in evidence.  Women have been pretty dominant in healthcare and those are some of the toughest jobs to train for.

Let me lay out your moving target for you....
-we need to pay teachers more
-teachers are teaching hard the money is to attract more talent
-the talent in teaching is fine we need to pay teachers more
-if you think teach is something a lot of people could do, you are sexist

What are we paying more money to teachers for in your world exactly?

You don't need to increase pay when you have 500 applicants for 1 job opening.  If I were advising my child, I would advise against a job as a teacher because there are so few jobs. 

[Pakuni]

You don't need to increase pay when you have 500 applicants for 1 job opening.  If I were advising my child, I would advise against a job as a teacher because there are so few jobs. 

This isn't exactly accurate.
According to the number Dept. of Labor, teaching positions will grow between 16 (elementary) and 17 (high school) percent by 2020.
Also, a significant number of today's teachers - as much as half, by some estimates - are Boomers. And when they retire over the next decade, that means lots of openings.

Even now, there are plenty of teaching jobs to be had. Just not in the high-paying suburban school districts. If you're willing to move to a small town, jobs are plentiful.
Same thing for the medical fields, fwiw.

[77ncaachamps]

I'd steer them away from education and towards the medical field.

With on-line learning and distance learning really starting to take off with video/tablet integration and improved networks and household (and readily available cheap) computers, rural classrooms may no longer exist. They may continue to exist because the people in those areas still want a human present and willing to teach humans.

Furthermore, there has been a desire to cut from school funding. Lots of reasons why but as long as schools continue to do more with less, the cuts will continue. If the aspiring teacher can identify communities that value education with their money and time, then I would nudge them to pursue their vocation with those targeted communities in mind.

As an aside, the Baby Boomers will continue to define and impact our lives greatly, even after their passing. The economic wave they continue to ride on is great.

[Aughnanure]

You can think its a sexist view all you want but you are drawing conclusions not in evidence.  Women have been pretty dominant in healthcare and those are some of the toughest jobs to train for.

Let me lay out your moving target for you....
-we need to pay teachers more
-teachers are teaching hard the money is to attract more talent
-the talent in teaching is fine we need to pay teachers more
-if you think teach is something a lot of people could do, you are sexist

What are we paying more money to teachers for in your world exactly?

So women entering the working world on an semi-equal playing foot for the first time....EVER, means that sexism is dead. Thanks for the heads-up.

I'm not going to answer your BS insinuations of my opinions that I have clearly explained, it's quite clear you have more fun not trying to understand me.

[mu03eng]

So women entering the working world on an semi-equal playing foot for the first time....EVER, means that sexism is dead. Thanks for the heads-up.

I'm not going to answer your BS insinuations of my opinions that I have clearly explained, it's quite clear you have more fun not trying to understand me.

Listen, I understand you just fine....you are passionate about education and think its critical to our future, which I agree with.  However you have an idealistic(some would even say unrealistically naive) view of how society should work and you think anyone that doesn't agree with your viewpoint is some sort of mouth breathing neanderthal and you have throw this sexism charge in there because it muddies the water so your argument seems more compelling.  I merely wanted to point out the inconsistencies in your argument, I've accomplished that based on your last response, I'm moving on.

At the end of the day, there is no appetite right now for significant expenditures of money on teaching; not arguing if that's right or wrong, just that it is reality.  Also if you look at MPS it has plenty of cash and is just wasting it IMHO.  So the whole point is make changes that don't impact the bottom line.  Even if we can't expand the school year(b/c teachers would have to be paid more) go to year round schooling, change the way you judge teacher performance, change how you measure the success of children.  Control moderately difficult things and then see if you can get the big things done.  Cause I tell you, doing nothing means we only get worse.

[Pakuni]

I'd steer them away from education and towards the medical field.

With on-line learning and distance learning really starting to take off with video/tablet integration and improved networks and household (and readily available cheap) computers, rural classrooms may no longer exist. They may continue to exist because the people in those areas still want a human present and willing to teach humans.

I don't see a big push for online kindergarten and distance learning fourth graders anytime soon. 
Nor do I see a titanic shift in the economy that would allow all families to have at least one grown up at home making sure little Johnny is doing his schoolwork and not playing video games and/or burning down the house.

[Aughnanure]

Listen, I understand you just fine....you are passionate about education and think its critical to our future, which I agree with.  However you have an idealistic(some would even say unrealistically naive) view of how society should work and you think anyone that doesn't agree with your viewpoint is some sort of mouth breathing neanderthal and you have throw this sexism charge in there because it muddies the water so your argument seems more compelling.  I merely wanted to point out the inconsistencies in your argument, I've accomplished that based on your last response, I'm moving on.

At the end of the day, there is no appetite right now for significant expenditures of money on teaching; not arguing if that's right or wrong, just that it is reality.  Also if you look at MPS it has plenty of cash and is just wasting it IMHO.  So the whole point is make changes that don't impact the bottom line.  Even if we can't expand the school year(b/c teachers would have to be paid more) go to year round schooling, change the way you judge teacher performance, change how you measure the success of children.  Control moderately difficult things and then see if you can get the big things done.  Cause I tell you, doing nothing means we only get worse.

Yeah, the inconsistencies you made up and then continued to say existed such as"

Why should we pay more for teaching, if teaching is already achieving the best results and they can't do better with more money, why pay more?


Nope, it's quite clear teaching isn't achieving the best results. The classic, why pay more for something I don't know exists.

Augh, you also seem to imply that teachers are holding back, because if they were paid more they would teach better?  Is that true, I don't think it is, I think teachers work their tails off so what does paying more accomplish, what would we get out of it?


Where was this? I implied teachers are holding back? News to me. And you just did that type of crap over and over again.

So listen, my point, this WHOLE time, is that the low pay and low respect the teaching profession receives in our society is indicative of the results it achieves. High-performing countries put in place high standards to just become teachers, have very rigorous training programs and only require a advanced levels of education and degrees (i.e., teachers are treated with the value the country places on it).

If you want teachers to become great, than treat teaching that way and not lollygag around with half-ass solutions like longer school years (its a systemic problem, not a time issue). If you think that would take too much money? Fine, I think you're wrong, but fine. Just don't blame teachers in 20 years when we are in the exact same, or even worse, position as we are now.

[Benny B]

I don't want to rain down gasoline on anyone's parade of fire here, but I'm going to any way:

- In America, everyone has an opportunity to be whatever they want or earn the salary they want (within reason); however, not everyone gets both.  Complaining about how much you're paid (or others are paid) or how you're "stuck" in a job/career makes you a crybaby.
- If a woman is paid less to do a job - any job - it's only because she's willing to accept less to do the job.
- If a teacher is paid less than his/her true "value" to society, it's because he/she is willing to accept less.
- A person who believes that his/her job's "undervaluation" is detrimental to society himself/herself becomes an even greater detriment to society by not exiting that job.
- No combination of performance, pay, and gender have a correlation anywhere close to |1|.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Couple points here:

In california many teachers dress worse than the maintenance staff, blue jeans and old t-shirts. If you are a professional act like one and dress like one. With all the laws,  kids know the  teachers' limitations and don't respect the system.
secondly, I have always told my children that "People treat you the way you Allow them to treat you."hool s
I taught in the Milwaukee school system in the 70's and there was some discipline and some parents supported you.

[ATL MU Warrior]

- In America, everyone has an opportunity to be whatever they want or earn the salary they want (within reason)
Yeah sure, you see a lot of hedge fund managers rising up from inner city poverty.

- If a woman is paid less to do a job - any job - it's only because she's willing to accept less to do the job
And she knows she is accepting less exactly how?  

- If a teacher is paid less than his/her true "value" to society, it's because he/she is willing to accept less.
How exactly do I calculate my true "value" to society so I know if I am being compensated apppropriately?

[mu03eng]

Yeah, the inconsistencies you made up and then continued to say existed such as"

Why should we pay more for teaching, if teaching is already achieving the best results and they can't do better with more money, why pay more?


Nope, it's quite clear teaching isn't achieving the best results. The classic, why pay more for something I don't know exists.

Augh, you also seem to imply that teachers are holding back, because if they were paid more they would teach better?  Is that true, I don't think it is, I think teachers work their tails off so what does paying more accomplish, what would we get out of it?


Where was this? I implied teachers are holding back? News to me. And you just did that type of crap over and over again.

So listen, my point, this WHOLE time, is that the low pay and low respect the teaching profession receives in our society is indicative of the results it achieves. High-performing countries put in place high standards to just become teachers, have very rigorous training programs and only require a advanced levels of education and degrees (i.e., teachers are treated with the value the country places on it).

If you want teachers to become great, than treat teaching that way and not lollygag around with half-ass solutions like longer school years (its a systemic problem, not a time issue). If you think that would take too much money? Fine, I think you're wrong, but fine. Just don't blame teachers in 20 years when we are in the exact same, or even worse, position as we are now.

Reread your statement especially If you want teachers to become great, you are implying the talent is not sufficient right now.  I completely disagree, there is plenty of talent in teaching currently, we need to put a system in place that leverages that talent.  If you took an entry level teacher to Europe right now, I bet they'd flourish because the expectations and system are better.  Having a masters degree in teaching does virtually nothing that they can't learn on the job.  Teachers are not succeeding now because we are not creating an environment for them to succeed, it has nothing to do with salary or talent.

And quite frankly low pay and low respect is a myth.  Extrapolate a 9 month salary to 12 months and compare it to most jobs....guarantee its in the top half of the salary bracket and that doesn't include the benefits, like not having to pay for day care in the summer when the kids aren't in school, health insurance, etc.

[Bocephys]

- In America, everyone has an opportunity to be whatever they want or earn the salary they want (within reason)
Yeah sure, you see a lot of hedge fund managers rising up from inner city poverty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Gardner
Yes, some people are born with an easier path, but every American has an easier path than most of the world.

- If a woman is paid less to do a job - any job - it's only because she's willing to accept less to do the job
And she knows she is accepting less exactly how?  
By using the same resources we all use to determine if we're being appropriately compensated.  Internet, recruiters, job listings, etc.

- If a teacher is paid less than his/her true "value" to society, it's because he/she is willing to accept less.
How exactly do I calculate my true "value" to society so I know if I am being compensated apppropriately?
Your value is kind of up to you, but if you think you're worth something, then find someone willing to pay that price.  If you can't, then you're probably misguided about the value you bring to the table.

[mu03eng]

- In America, everyone has an opportunity to be whatever they want or earn the salary they want (within reason)
Yeah sure, you see a lot of hedge fund managers rising up from inner city poverty.

When did hedge fund managers become the go to standard?  Do you have any studies that lays out the background of hedge fund managers?  If you are a teacher you went to a 4 year college, same requirement typically to be a hedge fund manager, they have every opportunity to be one.  America is about ensuring equality of opportunity, not result

[/quote]
- If a woman is paid less to do a job - any job - it's only because she's willing to accept less to do the job
And she knows she is accepting less exactly how?
[/quote]
Talk to coworkers, look at the database of salaries available to the public as public employees, talk to their union rep.  It's no different than looking at houses, comparing houses near by and assessing value.  These are intelligent people, figure it out....everyone else in the workplace does. 

[/quote]
- If a teacher is paid less than his/her true "value" to society, it's because he/she is willing to accept less.
How exactly do I calculate my true "value" to society so I know if I am being compensated apppropriately?
[/quote]

See above.  How do you determine your value at your job?  How do you decide whether to fix a leaking pipe in your house by yourself as opposed to paying someone.  To borrow from Pakuni, it is literally not rocket science.

All of these things are within peoples control to a degree.  Take control of the things you can and let the devil take the hindmost.

[Pakuni]

- In America, everyone has an opportunity to be whatever they want or earn the salary they want (within reason)
Yeah sure, you see a lot of hedge fund managers rising up from inner city poverty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Gardner
Yes, some people are born with an easier path, but every American has an easier path than most of the world.

Fallacy of exception proving the rule.
Weren't you forced to endure Logic 101 like the rest of us?

- If a woman is paid less to do a job - any job - it's only because she's willing to accept less to do the job
And she knows she is accepting less exactly how?  
By using the same resources we all use to determine if we're being appropriately compensated.  Internet, recruiters, job listings, etc.

Talk about blaming the victim.
The notion that someone "accepts" (and therefore deserves?) unequal pay, discrimination,  etc. if they remain in that situation is not only wrong and naive, but kind of insulting. Many people out there, especially in today's economy, don't have an option to just leave their job if they find the conditions unfair. Nor should they have to. Anti-discrimination laws exist for a reason.

[Bocephys]

Fallacy of exception proving the rule.
Weren't you forced to endure Logic 101 like the rest of us?

Talk about blaming the victim.
The notion that someone "accepts" (and therefore deserves?) unequal pay, discrimination,  etc. if they remain in that situation is not only wrong and naive, but kind of insulting. Many people out there, especially in today's economy, don't have an option to just leave their job if they find the conditions unfair. Nor should they have to. Anti-discrimination laws exist for a reason.

What If I'm making less at my company than people with similar experience to me at other companies?  Would you tell me that wasn't fair and I should sue, or would you tell me to go get paid at one of those other companies?  I'm not blaming the victim, I'm just saying that the same resources are available to everyone, but they have to use them.  Sitting there whining and playing the victim card guarantees negative results.  Plenty of people have had to endure crappy jobs while they worked toward a better future.  Everything isn't handed to you.

[Lennys Tap]

Talk about blaming the victim.
The notion that someone "accepts" (and therefore deserves?) unequal pay, discrimination,  etc. if they remain in that situation is not only wrong and naive, but kind of insulting. Many people out there, especially in today's economy, don't have an option to just leave their job if they find the conditions unfair. Nor should they have to. Anti-discrimination laws exist for a reason.

Where is the fallacy of seeing victimhood everytime someone bitches addressed in Logic 101? Good times, bad times and in between the world is replete with folks who think they drew the short straw. Blame someone  else as a way of exonerating yourself. To those who are actually being discriminated against there are protections available, but from what I see that's a small % of those who think they got a raw deal.

[Aughnanure]

Logic 101 in Olin Engineering....good times.

[Benny B]

Talk about blaming the victim.
The notion that someone "accepts" (and therefore deserves?) unequal pay, discrimination,  etc. if they remain in that situation is not only wrong and naive, but kind of insulting. Many people out there, especially in today's economy, don't have an option to just leave their job if they find the conditions unfair. Nor should they have to. Anti-discrimination laws exist for a reason.

1) Who said anything about victims?  I never said anything about inequality or discrimination.  What I was saying is that when a person willfully accepts a job, that person accepts all conditions of that job, including the wage as fair.  If conditions change or pay is cut, that's a completely different issue that affects people of all genders.  If there's a victim to be found here, it's only because the person chose to be a victim.

2) Everybody has the option to leave their job. (Even coaches who have (had) several years remaining on their contract.)  Everyone has the option to make a better life for him/herself.  The paths might be easier for some than others, but when people permanently resign themselves to an undesirable situation, typically it's because they prefer status quo to sacrifice.

[Benny B]

- In America, everyone has an opportunity to be whatever they want or earn the salary they want (within reason)
Yeah sure, you see a lot of hedge fund managers rising up from inner city poverty.

I must have missed the federal law that says children who are born into inner-city poverty are prohibited from managing another person's money.

[Pakuni]

What If I'm making less at my company than people with similar experience to me at other companies?  Would you tell me that wasn't fair and I should sue, or would you tell me to go get paid at one of those other companies? 

Why are you changing the subject? This has nothing to do with what one company pays in comparison to another. It's about Benny's example that the only reason a woman might earns less than her male co-workers is because she "accepts" it that way.

Sitting there whining and playing the victim card guarantees negative results.  Plenty of people have had to endure crappy jobs while they worked toward a better future.  Everything isn't handed to you.

So expecting equal treatment qualifies as "whining and playing the victim card?"
That darn MLK should have stopped whining and playing the victim card. If he and other blacks living in the South didn't like their unequal treatment, they had the option to move elsewhere. It's a free country, after all. By choosing to live there, they accepted discrimination.

Nobody is arguing against working hard, enduring crappy jobs, etc. At least I'm not. I'm talking about a poster's assertion that anyone facing job discrimination - such as his example of woman getting paid less because she's a woman - either "accepts" it or goes and gets another job. She shouldn't have to make that choice.

[Pakuni]

1) Who said anything about victims?  I never said anything about inequality or discrimination.  What I was saying is that when a person willfully accepts a job, that person accepts all conditions of that job, including the wage as fair.  If conditions change or pay is cut, that's a completely different issue that affects people of all genders.  If there's a victim to be found here, it's only because the person chose to be a victim.

So, at every job you've ever accepted you had full knowledge of the compensation and conditions under which all your peers worked? You knew your employment conditions before you walked through the door?

2) Everybody has the option to leave their job. (Even coaches who have (had) several years remaining on their contract.)  Everyone has the option to make a better life for him/herself.  The paths might be easier for some than others, but when people permanently resign themselves to an undesirable situation, typically it's because they prefer status quo to sacrifice.

Well, I suppose you're right that since slavery and indentured servitude no longer exist, everybody theoretically does have the option to leave their job. But in the real world, where job opportunities for most are scarce, leaving a job is not quite so simple if, say, you're a single mom trying to provide for your kids. Or a blue collar dad trying to get your kids through college. Not everybody can just walk away from an income. Nor should they be forced to in order to be treated equally.
Seriously can't believe I have to argue this point.

[Pakuni]

Where is the fallacy of seeing victimhood everytime someone bitches addressed in Logic 101? Good times, bad times and in between the world is replete with folks who think they drew the short straw. Blame someone  else as a way of exonerating yourself. To those who are actually being discriminated against there are protections available, but from what I see that's a small % of those who think they got a raw deal.

What?

Good to know, however, that you have a firm grip on the validity of all Americans' grievances.

[Lennys Tap]

What?

Good to know, however, that you have a firm grip on the validity of all Americans' grievances.

BS.

I never said I had a firm grip on ALL Americans' grievances. But I've certainly heard enough "the coach, the teacher, my boss, etc. is unfair, doesn't like me," etc., gripes over the years to know it's part of the human condition. That you reflexively confer "victim" status on anyone who claims to be one pretty much says it all.