Milwaukee Public Schools

[Aughnanure]

Snarky and childish.

Ha, I had the longest tangent in a meeting the yesterday about if snarky had a  mainly negative connotation. But yeah, guys, let's not fight -  its been going well so far.

[Lennys Tap]

Lastly, you complain about the amount of time teachers spend working (a mere 180 days a year, according to you ... less than half a year), and yet hold them solely responsible for child's educational progress. Heck, even on those rare days when kids are in school, teachers spend only about six hours a day with their students (and that's not even factoring in things like recess, lunch, arts, gym, etc.).
So, realistically, if kids are spending only about 12 percent of their lives in a classroom, why do teachers bear the entire burden here? Might there be, oh, I dunno, some factors outside the classroom to consider? Perhaps some social and cultural issues? Like, say, the steep rise in single-parent households? Or the steep rise of families in which both parents work? Or the increase in children of immigrants who are required to take some of these achievement tests, their knowledge and understanding of English notwithstanding?

Nah, forget it. That's far too nuanced. Let's just get mad at teachers.

Where did I "complain" about the number of days that teachers work? I'll answer that for you: never, but don't let that stand in the way of your ad hominem. I used 180 days as a simple fact, not some sort of indictment - that was the number of school days in my wife's last year as a teacher (2010).

As for your "nuance", I agree. Parents are far more responsible for performance than teachers. Parents who are uninvolved (or even hostile) undermine the learning process. The other side of the argument that exonerates teachers (justifyingly) for many poor outcomes necessarily reduces the credit due them for good ones.

Finally, equating holding the opinion that teachers are fairly being compensated with being "mad" at them is absurd.

[Pakuni]

Where did I "complain" about the number of days that teachers work? I'll answer that for you: never, but don't let that stand in the way of your ad hominem. I used 180 days as a simple fact, not some sort of indictment - that was the number of school days in my wife's last year as a teacher (2010).

As for your "nuance", I agree. Parents are far more responsible for performance than teachers. Parents who are uninvolved (or even hostile) undermine the learning process. The other side of the argument that exonerates teachers (justifyingly) for many poor outcomes necessarily reduces the credit due them for good ones.

Finally, equating holding the opinion that teachers are fairly being compensated with being "mad" at them is absurd.

I took your repeated - and inaccurate - snipes at a teacher's workload as a complaint. If that's not correct, I apologize.
(By the way, that's not an ad hominem. Your logic teacher failed you  )

If your only opinion was that teachers are fairly compensated, I wouldn't suggest you were mad at them. Heck, I'd by and large agree.
However, that wasn't the only opinion you offered. You cited only teachers when bemoaning poor test scores (until your most recent post), said very few of them view their profession as more than just a job, greatly exaggerated their pay raises and minimized the amount of work they do.
Sounds to me like you're mad.

[Lennys Tap]

 

If only I had a good teacher who'd corrected such behavior early in life.

There you go again, blamin' it on the poor teacher. What about all your social, cultural and famial disadvantages. For God's sakes, some nuance, please!

[Lennys Tap]

I took your repeated - and inaccurate - snipes at a teacher's workload as a complaint. If that's not correct, I apologize.
(By the way, that's not an ad hominem. Your logic teacher failed you  )

If your only opinion was that teachers are fairly compensated, I wouldn't suggest you were mad at them. Heck, I'd by and large agree.
However, that wasn't the only opinion you offered. You cited only teachers when bemoaning poor test scores (until your most recent post), said very few of them view their profession as more than just a job, greatly exaggerated their pay raises and minimized the amount of work they do.
Sounds to me like you're mad.

I guess that's the nature of the message board. You read my comments inaccurately enough to think I'm mad at teachers (I'm not) and I read your comments innacurately enough (I hope) to think you're mad at me.

Apologies from my half.

[Aughnanure]

I guess that's the nature of the message board. You read my comments inaccurately enough to think I'm mad at teachers (I'm not) and I read your comments innacurately enough (I hope) to think you're mad at me.

Apologies from my half.

BTW, that was the first Google Image result for "you mad bro"

[Ari Gold]

Its true, but we don't have to deal with screaming crazy kids and even crazier parents - they need the break more than I do. But generally, I think America has a problem with the lack of vacation days. So its not that I don't see that they do get paid more vs their work time -but that we all should get more time-off. You go to Europe and you are STARTING at 25 days.

How's that working out fot the EU? Granted Aug, from your ivory tower, I'm starting to think you wouldn't care if the entire US adopted a European style economic outlook and paid teachers 6 figures, even if the outcome was the same as Greece.  I'm sorry you think that teachers should be paid more than the spawn of the pathetic middle class drolls that they're educating.

Also- what's so bad about Teach for America. Can't be any worse than the teachers that spend their days watching the clock wind down on their pension.

[Spotcheck Billy]

$77,000 is middle class.

holy sh!t I had assumed I was middle class but I'm in poverty and didn't know it  

I'd still venture that $77K is UMC

wouldn't median income be middle class?

The median household income in 2010 was $49,445, so that gives many a point of reference when trying to determine what, exactly, is middle class.
http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/middle-class-income-middle-class-family.html

by this link I am below middle class

What Is The Middle Class?
The middle class is more than an income bracket. Over the past 50 years, a middle-class standard of living in the United States has come to mean having a secure job, a safe and stable home, access to health care, retirement security, time off for vacation, illness and the birth or adoption of a child, opportunities to save for the future and the ability to provide a good education, including a college education, for one's children. When these middle-class fundamentals are within the reach of most Americans, the nation is stronger economically, culturally and democratically
http://www.themiddleclass.org/node/164

[Aughnanure]

How's that working out fot the EU? Granted Aug, from your ivory tower, I'm starting to think you wouldn't care if the entire US adopted a European style economic outlook and paid teachers 6 figures, even if the outcome was the same as Greece.  I'm sorry you think that teachers should be paid more than the spawn of the pathetic middle class drolls that they're educating.

Also- what's so bad about Teach for America. Can't be any worse than the teachers that spend their days watching the clock wind down on their pension.

Oh cute, someone that knows the bare minimum about the EU economic crisis and thus wants to discredit anything Europeans do (its socialism! run!). To be clear, the countries I mean to refer to as models are Germany, Finland, Sweden and Luxembourg. They invest heavily in education standards, and apprenticeship pgms - and the results shows it. if you knew anything about why Europe is in trouble (and using Greece is an extreme example and misconstrues the point) is because their reaction to trouble was harsh austerity measures that created an economic vacuum that has not allowed for growth

Teach for America is bad because it attracts kids who never thought about being teachers (or wanted to), and who usually couldn't get jobs in their respective fields, to suddenly just become teachers without any prior classes, knowledge or experience. It's like doctor's without borders, except they're not doctors and it encourages people to think that teaching is soo easy, I can wake up one day and Just. Do. It.

I'm sorry you think teachers are as valuable as mechanics.

[Pakuni]

How's that working out fot the EU?  

Germany has the strongest economy in Europe (and stronger than ours). Its workers spend, on average, about 1,400 hours a year on the job and get 40 days off a year (second most in Europe).
Greece is a basket case. It's workers spend, on average, more than 2,000 hours on the job every year and get 33 days off a year.

Just saying, maybe you're oversimplifying a tad.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2109263,00.html

[Pakuni]

I guess that's the nature of the message board. You read my comments inaccurately enough to think I'm mad at teachers (I'm not) and I read your comments innacurately enough (I hope) to think you're mad at me.

Apologies from my half.

No, Lenny, I'm not mad at you. Spirited debate is all.

[Aughnanure]

holy sh!t I had assumed I was middle class but I'm in poverty and didn't know it  

I'd still venture that $77K is UMC

wouldn't median income be middle class?

by this link I am below middle class

The middle-class is very broad. I don't think you get into upper middle class until 85-90+, probably 100. 100k isn't what it was in 1995 or 2003. This then assumes your HHI can be approaching 200,000. The problem I have is that the middle class (myself -included) is more and more accepting 35-70k while an extremely small proportion of the country has seen salaries and benefits skyrocket.

But instead we target teachers making above 80k, when we should all be making above 80+k (or much more of us). Middle-class salaries have been stagnant for so long its ridiculous.


Middle-class does probably run from $40,000-$250,000 depending on the size of the household (i.e., 1 person making 250k is not middle class but 2 parents with 2 kids making that are).

[martyconlonontherun]

40k for health, dental, vision, 401k, and Pension plans?  Holy F!  Well What's the excuse then for the MPS being a FAILURE?  A TEACHER...making about 100k to work 8 months out of the year is a joke. 

It's quite simple to me, if i do bad at my job, if i don't meet expectations, i'm gone.  Yet these teachers aren't held accountable?  Obviously they're not...  Facts are facts and MPS has failed, the blame should be placed on the teachers.

I'm pretty conservative but even I find this thread a joke. The per-pupil costs are very misleading based on the type of student. I can't remember the numbers from my school, but I a normal, healthy student from a middle-class family was a fraction of what it costs either an inner-city student or mentally-challenged students. There are so many social factors involved that you can't blame it all on the teachers.

[🏀]

Oh cute, someone that knows the bare minimum about the EU economic crisis and thus wants to discredit anything Europeans do (its socialism! run!). To be clear, the countries I mean to refer to as models are Germany, Finland, Sweden and Luxembourg. They invest heavily in education standards, and apprenticeship pgms - and the results shows it. if you knew anything about why Europe is in trouble (and using Greece is an extreme example and misconstrues the point) is because their reaction to trouble was harsh austerity measures that created an economic vacuum that has not allowed for growth

Teach for America is bad because it attracts kids who never thought about being teachers (or wanted to), and who usually couldn't get jobs in their respective fields, to suddenly just become teachers without any prior classes, knowledge or experience. It's like doctor's without borders, except they're not doctors and it encourages people to think that teaching is soo easy, I can wake up one day and Just. Do. It.

I'm sorry you think teachers are as valuable as mechanics.

I know I can't fix a BMW, but I know I can teach algebra or geometry.

Just saying.

[martyconlonontherun]

Teach for America is bad because it attracts kids who never thought about being teachers (or wanted to), and who usually couldn't get jobs in their respective fields, to suddenly just become teachers without any prior classes, knowledge or experience. It's like doctor's without borders, except they're not doctors and it encourages people to think that teaching is soo easy, I can wake up one day and Just. Do. It.

I'm sorry you think teachers are as valuable as mechanics.

From my experience, T4A were recruiting highly successful students. They wanted students with high GPA & leadership involvements. Maybe they have lowered their standards, but I know plenty of qualified people who were turned down by T4A. Not quite the "one's who couldn't get jobs in their respective fields."

Also, in college, I thought the best teachers were professionals who came where either retired or just teaching 1 class a semester. Seemed like they were more on a mission and less likely to get comfortable and lower standards. IMO



I think the biggest part of the argument on teacher pay is what the pay is actually for. Do you really need doctor level training for teachers K-9? Hell no. I honestly think anyone with a college degree SHOULD be able to teach a K-9 class. However, in reality the teachers are expected to do more than teach. They are expected to play juvenile correction officer, parent, counselor, etc. I don't think higher teacher pay solves this problem. We need to look at solving this problem at the family-level. It's hard to think of solutions that aren't extreme that involves classism and Chinese-like mandates.

[Aughnanure]

From my experience, T4A were recruiting highly successful students. They wanted students with high GPA & leadership involvements. Maybe they have lowered their standards, but I know plenty of qualified people who were turned down by T4A. Not quite the "one's who couldn't get jobs in their respective fields."

Also, in college, I thought the best teachers were professionals who came where either retired or just teaching 1 class a semester. Seemed like they were more on a mission and less likely to get comfortable and lower standards. IMO

I think the biggest part of the argument on teacher pay is what the pay is actually for. Do you really need doctor level training for teachers K-9? Hell no. I honestly think anyone with a college degree SHOULD be able to teach a K-9 class. However, in reality the teachers are expected to do more than teach. They are expected to play juvenile correction officer, parent, counselor, etc. I don't think higher teacher pay solves this problem. We need to look at solving this problem at the family-level. It's hard to think of solutions that aren't extreme that involves classism and Chinese-like mandates.

Teaching in college is very, very different - and is not the problem. Our secondary education system (i.e., College/university) is second to none.

Where we fail, and fail miserable is early childhood, grade school and high school. Across the board. The single most important time period for a child's learning is early childhood and YES, you need to know what the frack you're doing. Its not a game, its a science and process that is very specialized with teachers with PhDs and multiple master's. Its that fracking important. Your post shows you don't understand this at all.

On to T4A. Its such an insult to the teaching profession that you think you can just waltz right in there and begin. just having a good GPA and 'leadership involvement' (ha) does not prepare you for the challenges and rigors of teaching. Not even close. What other teachers hate most about T4A, is that they come in, teach for a few years and leave. They usually are very poor in the 1st yr (as most teacher are, but they are usually even less prepared), and by the time they are adequate they leave. Its very frustrating for other teachers to see that happen. Basically see someone who has no desire or commitment to be a teacher long-term come in and steal a job from others who may want it - and then just move on. It's an insult. Yes a few stay, but most do not.

[Ari Gold]

Oh cute, someone that knows the bare minimum about the EU economic crisis and thus wants to discredit anything Europeans do (its socialism! run!).

Thanks for reaffirming my suspicion that you're fueled by ivory tower elitism

Oh cute youre a close minded pretentious pretty boy. 

[Aughnanure]

Better than a presumptuous idiot.

[martyconlonontherun]

Teaching in college is very, very different - and is not the problem. Our secondary education system (i.e., College/university) is second to none.

Where we fail, and fail miserable is early childhood, grade school and high school. Across the board. The single most important time period for a child's learning is early childhood and YES, you need to know what the frack you're doing. Its not a game, its a science and process that is very specialized with teachers with PhDs and multiple master's. Its that fracking important. Your post shows you don't understand this at all.

On to T4A. Its such an insult to the teaching profession that you think you can just waltz right in there and begin. just having a good GPA and 'leadership involvement' (ha) does not prepare you for the challenges and rigors of teaching. Not even close. What other teachers hate most about T4A, is that they come in, teach for a few years and leave. They usually are very poor in the 1st yr (as most teacher are, but they are usually even less prepared), and by the time they are adequate they leave. Its very frustrating for other teachers to see that happen. Basically see someone who has no desire or commitment to be a teacher long-term come in and steal a job from others who may want it - and then just move on. It's an insult. Yes a few stay, but most do not.

1.  Reread my post. I said SHOULD be able to teach k-8. The skills to teach the subject matter shouldn't be that hard. I also said its not in reality and that teachers are being accountable for stuff they shouldn't. If there were strong family in place they wouldn't need to 'change' the student. We should focus more on improving society as a whole than the kids 7 hours a day after it is usually too late.

2. I wasn't arguing for TFA. I was arguing for the students you collectively called students who couldn't get jobs. I understand both sides of TFA but most of those students aren't dumb or lazy like you were implying.

[Aughnanure]

1.  Reread my post. I said SHOULD be able to teach k-8. The skills to teach the subject matter shouldn't be that hard. I also said its not in reality and that teachers are being accountable for stuff they shouldn't. If there were strong family in place they wouldn't need to 'change' the student. We should focus more on improving society as a whole than the kids 7 hours a day after it is usually too late.

2. I wasn't arguing for TFA. I was arguing for the students you collectively called students who couldn't get jobs. I understand both sides of TFA but most of those students aren't dumb or lazy like you were implying.

To answer #1: Your idea that teaching is such an easy skill that apparently anyone should be able to do it, easily... is just wrong. I don't have time or the patience to lend any credence to that argument.

To answer #2: I never said they were lazy. I put that poorly, my fault. But generally, especially in the last 5 years - a lot of college students don't get jobs right out of graduation and T4A end up being this backup plan. They eventually get jobs where they wanted, mostly, but T4A being seen as a backup option is a sad reminder of how teaching is thought of in our country.

[mu03eng]

I had to jump out for a while, and both that took a turn in a hurry. 

Am I to understand that one group of folks is saying teachers need to be paid more but has also pointed out that parents have the biggest impact on educational success?  Why would we pay teachers more if they aren't even the biggest impact on success?

Its not empirical, but if you look at average teacher salary and the number of days worked, and extrapolate to a full year salary, they make more than my wife does who is a physical therapist with two degrees and 8 years of out patient experience.  Not a complaint at all, my wife makes a great living and she loves her job, the point is that its not apples to apples...and that doesn't even account for benefits like health care and retirement.

My brother and mom are teachers and are great at what they do, but I agree with PTM, I can much more easily create an average teacher out of someone than an average doctor, physical therapist, brand manager or consultant.

Augh, you also seem to imply that teachers are holding back, because if they were paid more they would teach better?  Is that true, I don't think it is, I think teachers work their tails off so what does paying more accomplish, what would we get out of it?

Lastly, I completely agree the entry level salary for teachers is insane, but to a large extent the teachers have only themselves to blame.  The union structure creates a caste system where seniority is rewarded at the expense of fresh teachers.  Pay for performance would level the playing field to a certain extent.  Plus I think you'd have more of an argument if teaching degrees were going unfilled....we have a shortage of medical professionals but I've not heard a peep about teaching shortages.

[Aughnanure]

My brother and mom are teachers and are great at what they do, but I agree with PTM, I can much more easily create an average teacher out of someone than an average doctor, physical therapist, brand manager or consultant.

This is where we will continue to disagree. You think teaching isn't really a skill, not something that has to be trained, learned, studied and, lastly, compensated for expertise. Secondly, you are really going to bring in "consultant" and "brand manager" as examples of careers that require more skill? Wow.

Its not empirical, but if you look at average teacher salary and the number of days worked, and extrapolate to a full year salary, they make more than my wife does who is a physical therapist with two degrees and 8 years of out patient experience.  Not a complaint at all, my wife makes a great living and she loves her job, the point is that its not apples to apples...and that doesn't even account for benefits like health care and retirement.

I don't know how much money you are implying, but yes I think teaching is more valuable to a society than a physical therapist. Nothing against PT, put teachers just factually have a larger impact on a community and culture than any physical therapist ever has. Still, I doubt they make more unless you are only looking at college professor salaries.

Augh, you also seem to imply that teachers are holding back, because if they were paid more they would teach better?  Is that true, I don't think it is, I think teachers work their tails off so what does paying more accomplish, what would we get out of it?

No I do not imply current teachers are holding back. I am implying that the salaries and respect teachers are given does not attract the most talented college graduates into teaching careers.

[GGGG]

This is where we will continue to disagree. You think teaching isn't really a skill, not something that has to be trained, learned, studied and, lastly, compensated for expertise. Secondly, you are really going to bring in "consultant" and "brand manager" as examples of careers that require more skill? Wow.

Now you are being just as guilty as him.  A good brand manger requires a great deal of training, learning, and studying.

[Aughnanure]

Now you are being just as guilty as him.  A good brand manger requires a great deal of training, learning, and studying.

Never said that, you inferred that. Why is it so ridiculous to say teachers require more?

[GGGG]

Never said that, you inferred that. Why is it so ridiculous to say teachers require more?

It's not.  But why is it so ridiculous to say they require less?  Do you really have a good basis for comparison?