Buzz .. 20th best Coach..?

[The Equalizer]

Nothing quite says coaching greatness like "Being ranked ahead of Marquette in a poll taken six months before any games are played."

Aha, but getting St. Louis ranked that high . . . .

On top of a championship game, an elite eight, two sweet 16s. . . 

[NersEllenson]

Aha, but getting St. Louis ranked that high . . . .

On top of a championship game, an elite eight, two sweet 16s. . . 

In roughly a 30 year career compared to 5 for Buzz...nice try 84.

[JWags85]

brad stevens needs to be in the top 5, if not top 3

Based on two runs with senior laden teams with stars who moved on to the NBA?  If he was top 3, his team this year shouldn't have missed the tournament, much less the NIT.  He's a rising star, but 2 years does not a top 5 coach make.  Same with people anointing Shaka Smart already.

[NersEllenson]

Based on two runs with senior laden teams with stars who moved on to the NBA?  If he was top 3, his team this year shouldn't have missed the tournament, much less the NIT.  He's a rising star, but 2 years does not a top 5 coach make.  Same with people anointing Shaka Smart already.

As I recall, most of the talent on the Butler team - Hayward, Howard and Shelvin Mack were not recruited by Brad Stevens...he inherited them...so not sure we still have a true reflection of Stevens overall coach profile - X's and O's good?  Absolutely?  Can he recruit to keep program an NCAA power?  Remains to be seen but missing the NIT last year was pretty bad.

[Pakuni]

Aha, but getting St. Louis ranked that high . . . .

On top of a championship game, an elite eight, two sweet 16s. . . 

By those standards, we probably need to get Jim O'Brien, Richard Williams, Bobby Cremins and Jim Harrick on the list.
Those guys also had some nice runs 15 years ago.

[Goose]

Rick has earned his place in coaching ranks. The three last stops were hardly basketball blue bloods and he has found ways to get very good results. Biggest rip on Rick from my side is he likes coaching more than recruiting. It seems as if he likes winning with lesser guys and never quite got that. Understand he has coached NBA guys but just seems that he would prefer the Pat Foley types.

[Pakuni]

As I recall, most of the talent on the Butler team - Hayward, Howard and Shelvin Mack were not recruited by Brad Stevens...he inherited them...so not sure we still have a true reflection of Stevens overall coach profile - X's and O's good?  Absolutely?  Can he recruit to keep program an NCAA power?  Remains to be seen but missing the NIT last year was pretty bad.

Stevens has been head coach since 2007, so every key player on the two Final Four teams would have been recruited when he was head coach.

Also, in response to the earlier post about those being "senior laden" teams ... the squad that lost to Duke in the finals 2010 game was led by three sophomores (Hayward, Nored and Mack) and a junior (Howard). Only one starter was a senior, and the first two guys off the bench were juniors. By no measure was that a "senior laden" team.
On the next year's squad, three seniors played more than 5 mpg. Again, not exactly "senior laden."

[The Equalizer]

By those standards, we probably need to get Jim O'Brien, Richard Williams, Bobby Cremins and Jim Harrick on the list.
Those guys also had some nice runs 15 years ago.

Yeah, but did they also bring success to St. Louis? 

Maybe you've just missed all the threads here that define St. Louis as the low-level, minor-league type of program we stand to become if all the Armegeddon/Hiroshima/Larry Williams stuff comes to pass.

If Majerus can a) bring such a low-level, minor-league program to near-parity with Marquette has he did last year and b) convince most experts that they are going to be better than us going into this season, just maybe he deserves some credit for the accomplishment.

[Goose]

Equalizer
I was the most vocal on MU becoming SLU guy on here. Just because Rick has done a good job there does not make it a program to become. Rick is not paid a ton, they have little national visibility, crappy conference (at least TV wise) and not highly respected program. I think Rick is a great coach and gets the most out of what he is dealt. He could win NCAA at SLU and still would not be a program to copy.

[Pakuni]

Yeah, but did they also bring success to St. Louis?  

Maybe you've just missed all the threads here that define St. Louis as the low-level, minor-league type of program we stand to become if all the Armegeddon/Hiroshima/Larry Williams stuff comes to pass.

If Majerus can a) bring such a low-level, minor-league program to near-parity with Marquette has he did last year and b) convince most experts that they are going to be better than us going into this season, just maybe he deserves some credit for the accomplishment.

On what planet is the St. Louis program on - or near - par with Marquette?
Please cite for us all the many factors (other than supposed preseason polls taken months before any meaningful play) that lead you to make such a palpably ridiculous statement.
And who are these many experts convinced St. Louis is better than MU?

p.s. Charlie Spoonhour and, to a lesser extent, Lorenzo Romar had success at St. Louis. It's hardly unheard of.

[GGGG]

This is all true about Stevens...who is obviously a good coach.  But top 2 or 3?  No way.

I wouldn't even consider dropping Buzz for him for instance.

[wyzgy]

Based on two runs with senior laden teams with stars who moved on to the NBA?  If he was top 3, his team this year shouldn't have missed the tournament, much less the NIT.  He's a rising star, but 2 years does not a top 5 coach make.  Same with people anointing Shaka Smart already.

2 years in a row to championship game with cast-offs.  shoulda/coulda won 2011.  how many can say this?  he will be back

[GGGG]

Cast offs???  He had a future NBA lottery pick on the first team, and a guard who was drafted on both of them...as well as Matt Howard, who was a damn good college player.  (Undersized for the NBA.)

He had plenty of talent on that team.

[Lennys Tap]

Yeah, but did they also bring success to St. Louis? 

Maybe you've just missed all the threads here that define St. Louis as the low-level, minor-league type of program we stand to become if all the Armegeddon/Hiroshima/Larry Williams stuff comes to pass.

I can't figure out if you think MU is already at the SLU level or you think it would be an acceptable and minor drop for MU to get there. Either way I think you're off base.

[Bocephys]

2 years in a row to championship game with cast-offs.  shoulda/coulda won 2011.  how many can say this?  he will be back

Unless he can translate that into future recruiting classes it doesn't mean a whole lot in the long run.

[Pakuni]

Unless he can translate that into future recruiting classes it doesn't mean a whole lot in the long run.

He's already translated it into a pretty significant upgrade in conference affiliation.
And his incoming group includes the 79th ranked player (ESPN) in the class of 2012.

FWIW, the uber talented guys that led Butler to back-to-back Final Fours (Mack, Hayward, Howard) weren't top 150 players.

[The Equalizer]

On what planet is the St. Louis program on - or near - par with Marquette?
Please cite for us all the many factors (other than supposed preseason polls taken months before any meaningful play) that lead you to make such a palpably ridiculous statement.
And who are these many experts convinced St. Louis is better than MU?

p.s. Charlie Spoonhour and, to a lesser extent, Lorenzo Romar had success at St. Louis. It's hardly unheard of.

I can't figure out if you think MU is already at the SLU level or you think it would be an acceptable and minor drop for MU to get there. Either way I think you're off base.

Never mind.  You guys apparently don't read the board regularly enough to recall the "Under Larry Williams we might become St. Louis threads.

[Pakuni]

Never mind.  You guys apparently don't read the board regularly enough to recall the "Under Larry Williams we might become St. Louis threads.

Just trying to understand your comment that St. Louis' basketball program is "near-parity" with that of Marquette. The basis for that is what?
NCAA appearances? Nope.
Postseason success? Nope.
Championships? Nope.
Attendance? Nope.
Conference affiliation? Nope.
National attention? Nope.
Television appearances? Nope.
Professional success of former players? Nope.
Individual player accolades? Nope.

[jmayer1]

Never mind.  You guys apparently don't read the board regularly enough to recall the "Under Larry Williams we might become St. Louis threads.

Actually, apparently you just aren't very bright. Is Creighton at near-parity with Kansas since they are ranked ahead of them in one presason poll? That's just a very dumb comment.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2012-05-22/college-basketball-rankings-2012-13-top-25-mike-decourcy

[The Equalizer]

Just trying to understand your comment that St. Louis' basketball program is "near-parity" with that of Marquette. The basis for that is what?
NCAA appearances? Nope.
Postseason success? Nope.
Championships? Nope.
Attendance? Nope.
Conference affiliation? Nope.
National attention? Nope.
Television appearances? Nope.
Professional success of former players? Nope.
Individual player accolades? Nope.

Round of 16 vs. Round of 32.  Ranked ahead of us in the pre-season 2013 polls.   That's near parity performance. 

Considering the context of threads like this:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=32554.msg394099#msg394099
where the general consensus is that Marquette has a far superior program to SLU, an SLU coach that can deliver near-parity performance must be pretty damn good at his job.

[jmayer1]

Round of 16 vs. Round of 32.  Ranked ahead of us in the pre-season 2013 polls.   That's near parity performance. 

Considering the context of threads like this:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=32554.msg394099#msg394099
where the general consensus is that Marquette has a far superior program to SLU, an SLU coach that can deliver near-parity performance must be pretty damn good at his job.

Try again Stevie, you're still not close.

I'll let Coach K know that Mark Gotfried (NC State) is a better coach than he is.

[The Equalizer]

I'll let Coach K know that Mark Gotfried (NC State) is a better coach than he is.

I'm not sure what point you're possibly trying to make.

I'm no Majerus fan--I think he screwed us worse than any other MU coach in our history--but give the man his due on what he's done since:
--He brought the first and only real success to Ball State in their 90 years of basketball.
--He took Utah to their first final four in over 30 years.
--He brought St. Louis back into the national spotlight after a decade of CUSA and A10 futility.

If Majeurs can come into a moribund 2nd tier program like St. Louis (which many here on this board use as the benchmark of a failed program) and revive it to the point where they damn near make a Sweet 16 last year by taking #1 seed MSU to the wire, and and then return almost everyone to start the following year ranked ahead of us, then I think you can make a pretty good case that he's one of the 30 top coaches in the game today.

Three turnarounds at non-BCS programs getting each to the NCAA in my opinion justifies of putting him among a list of the top 30 coaches in the game today.  If you disagree, then name the coaches not on the list that you think deseve it ahead of him.

[jmayer1]

I'm not sure what point you're possibly trying to make.

I'm no Majerus fan--I think he screwed us worse than any other MU coach in our history--but give the man his due on what he's done since:
--He brought the first and only real success to Ball State in their 90 years of basketball.
--He took Utah to their first final four in over 30 years.
--He brought St. Louis back into the national spotlight after a decade of CUSA and A10 futility.

If Majeurs can come into a moribund 2nd tier program like St. Louis (which many here on this board use as the benchmark of a failed program) and revive it to the point where they damn near make a Sweet 16 last year by taking #1 seed MSU to the wire, and and then return almost everyone to start the following year ranked ahead of us, then I think you can make a pretty good case that he's one of the 30 top coaches in the game today.

Three turnarounds at non-BCS programs getting each to the NCAA in my opinion justifies of putting him among a list of the top 30 coaches in the game today.  If you disagree, then name the coaches not on the list that you think deseve it ahead of him.

I think over his career Majerus has shown he is a pretty good coach. However, this isn't the late 90's and I'm not sure he should be on a list of top 30 coaches right now. However, that wasn't really even the point I was trying to argue.

If Majerus can a) bring such a low-level, minor-league program to near-parity with Marquette has he did last year and b) convince most experts that they are going to be better than us going into this season, just maybe he deserves some credit for the accomplishment.

You're comparing MU to SLU simply based on last year and preseason polls for this year to say that they are at near-parity with MU. If you're going to say that, then you've got to say that NC State is at near-parity with Duke, which we all know is laughable.

On several instances you've tried to degrade those that have said they don't want MU to be like SLU, based on preseason rankings. That is simply asinine. Name one thing that SLU program has going for it over the MU program at this point--just 1.

However, since you posted it, I think I'll refute your post and point out some other inaccuracies.

I think you're over exaggerating how much he has turned around SLU and Ball State. His 1st 4 seasons at SLU were nothing special and he hasn't accomplished anything more than 2 of the 3 previous coached did at SLU. In fact, he has only 2 more conference wins over his first 5 years than Soderberg did over his 5 years before he got canned. This year will be very telling in my opinion. Can he build on their season last year? If so, then maybe he'll assert himself again as one of the country's better coaches. However, I'm not ready to put him on that list again just yet because he's made 1 NCAA appearance over the past 9 years.

As for Ball State, you said he brought their first and only real success. This is a flat-out lie.

NCAA tourney appearances before Rick: 2
NCAA tourney wins before Rick: 1
NCAA tourney appearances with Rick (only 2 years): 1
NCAA tourney wins with Rick: 1
NCAA tourney appearances after Rick: 4
NCAA tourney wins after Rick: 2 (Sweet 16 the year after he left)

Rick did a phenomenal job at Utah and I don't think anybody here can deny that (although they did make the tourney 6 times in the 12 previous season before Rick took over). However, your posts have been ingenuous and innaccurate.

[The Equalizer]

You're comparing MU to SLU simply based on last year and preseason polls for this year to say that they are at near-parity with MU. If you're going to say that, then you've got to say that NC State is at near-parity with Duke, which we all know is laughable.

I've made it pretty clear on several occaisions that the "near-parity" comment reflected recent and curretn performance and not overall history.  

I agree with you that MU has a far superior program history. SLU is nowhere near parity with MU in terms of overall marqueee value, historical program success, or other such measures.  We're in a much better conference, have more fan support, more TV coverage, more wins over time, more players in the NBA, top 100 recruits, NJCAA AA recruits, more marquee opponents  etc. etc. etc.  

So I'll put the challenge back on you: explain how SLU--with none of the historic advantages or program strength of Marquette---came as close to our performance as they did last year and are currently favored ahead of us this coming year?

Name one thing that SLU program has going for it over the MU program at this point--just 1.

Well, they are currently ranked ahead of us in the early pre-season polls.

But seriously, other than that, I can't. You probably can't either. Since we agree, why don't you explain your thoughts on why MU has EVERY single advantage over SLU as a program--yet SLU is ranked ahead of us right now going into next year?

I think you're over exaggerating how much he has turned around SLU and Ball State. His 1st 4 seasons at SLU were nothing special and he hasn't accomplished anything more than 2 of the 3 previous coached did at SLU.

Ball State had been playing basketball since the 1920s.  Contrary to your statement, they had not won an NCAA tournament game until Rick arrived. In addition, the two wins the year after Rick left were becuase of the players Majerus recruited. Therefore, the only 3 wins in program history are largely due to Majerus.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/5315

Meanwhile, SLU went to the NCAA for the first time in 12 years last season and won a game for the first time in 14 years, and only the 3rd time in 50+ years.  Soderberg didn't make the tournament.  Romar did not win a tourney game. By winning a tournament game, Majerus accomplished something that neither of the two prior coaches did.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/7480

Fundamentally if Majerus can bring success to BSU and  back to SLU, and significantlly raise the level of success at Utah, he's a good coach and desreves his place on the top 30 list.

But if you disagree, why don't you name someone else who should be there in his place.

[Pakuni]

But seriously, other than that, I can't. You probably can't either. Since we agree, why don't you explain your thoughts on why MU has EVERY single advantage over SLU as a program--yet SLU is ranked ahead of us right now going into next year?

So, your statement that SLU is "near parity with MU" is based on nothing more than they won one fewer tournament games - as did apparently MU-like programs such as Lehigh, Norfolk State, and Murray State -  and that they're ranked ahead of MU in some poll, taken 6+ months before the season begins, you've yet to produce.
Flimsiest. Argument. Ever.

The issue you're being called out here isn't you belief Rick is a good coach. It's your belief that the St. Louis basketball program is by any measure on or near par with Marquette's.
To put your silly statement in perspective, in the 2007-08 preseason poll (the real one, not the one some writer came up with in April), Marquette was ranked ahead of Duke. This came after an NCAA tournament in which the two teams exited in the same round.
Applying Equalizer logic, the MU program was then on par with Duke's.