Ken Pom Loves the Ox

[nycwarrior]

Ox will not magically turn into a leaper. Even Todd Smith can't make that happen.

It's more likely that, as Ox continues to get into better shape, he may well get himself into better position, more often.

If he does that, he may well get more weak side boards and keep more opposing 4s off ours.

But it won't be because he becomes a leaper.

[NersEllenson]

To use a coaching term, I don't think he rebounds well "outside of his area". Part of that is size/agility, part of that is effort.

I remember Buzz getting on De De for limping on a defensive possession, but then on offense, suddenly the limp was gone and he had some spring in his step.

Translation: Gardner LOVES offense and is willing to do whatever it takes to score. On defense, I don't know if he has learned to play with max effort every possession (something Jae was awesome at), which isn't uncommon for a young player, especially one of his size.

He's a really nice player. Very Robert Jackson-esque. Nice hands, good scoring touch, good low post footwork, creates space with his strength.

Needs to play harder on defense, cover more ground (pick and roll) and rebound out of his area.

Maybe 13 and 7 this year? Otule goes 8 and 6? That's nice efficient production from Center in split minutes.

Hey - Actually agree on your whole post Ammo...a rarity...but you hit the nail on the head in saying Gardner doesn't rebound well outside of his area.  He cant' chase balls down, give you much other than those boards that are to be had right in his immediate area.  DG is great at eating space, using his wide body to keep other players at bay on both ends.  His power/physicality I think is underestimated...he can still rebound effectively and NOT have to jump more than 6 inches off the ground....due to his body and strength..

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Hey - Actually agree on your whole post Ammo...a rarity...but you hit the nail on the head in saying Gardner doesn't rebound well outside of his area.  He cant' chase balls down, give you much other than those boards that are to be had right in his immediate area.  DG is great at eating space, using his wide body to keep other players at bay on both ends.  His power/physicality I think is underestimated...he can still rebound effectively and NOT have to jump more than 6 inches off the ground....due to his body and strength..

He's never going to average 9+ boards per game (few college players do). But, that doesn't mean he can't be effective and grab 7 boards per game using his body and great hands. Just needs a more consistent effort (Buzz is on him about that) and probably some more conditioning to help him play a little harder/faster for longer.

His numbers are super efficient right now because he is used extensively in favorable match-ups. The more he plays this season, the more challenges he's going to see. I think his efficiency will drop off, but he's even more valuable to the team this year.

Very creative scorer in the low post. Would like to see him pass more often as well. He's a black hole right now (and it works), but he's going to see tougher match-ups this season.

He's the diamond in the rough big man that MU has been looking for since, I dunno, Lovett?

[mileskishnish72]

bilsu, I'm with you - I think there must have been fouls on our centers at least 30 feet from the basket in double figures last year.

[GGGG]

bilsu, I'm with you - I think there must have been fouls on our centers at least 30 feet from the basket in double figures last year.

Double digits in 30 games is hardly that big of a deal.

You need to understand that the point of Buzz's offense is to get "paint touches."  Therefore the point of his defense is to prevent paint touches.  If you don't hedge the pick and roll, you are going to get guards marching down the lane with regularity....which will cause your posts to pick up fouls much more often then when they hedge screens.

[brewcity77]

I don not know if it bother you guys, but it drives me nuts when either Gardner or Otule are chasing guards instead of playing under the basket. Had Otule stayed under the basket he would not have hurt his knee going after a loose ball.

It sometimes irritates me when Ox does it, but Otule has become really good at the quick outside defensive look then shadowing back to the paint. You could see it in the first 7 games last year. I don't put his injury on that at all, and when Ox's role increased, I remember defensively being incredibly frustrated that he didn't have the lateral quickness that allowed Otule to be effective at the outside-in defense while Ox simply is not.

That said, he improved a great deal last year, and I could see him getting 20-24 mpg next year, though Otule would still start (only chance to win tips) and get 16-20.

[bilsu]

bilsu, I'm with you - I think there must have been fouls on our centers at least 30 feet from the basket in double figures last year.

It amazed last year with what Gardner got away with when he was 20 ft from the basket. He rarely got called for a foul out there, but he fouled a lot. Maybe the refs felt sorry for him having to chase out there. However, they even up the fouls by calling Derrick Wilson everytime he touched someone.

[bilsu]

Can anyone who saw him comment on how his vertical was in the pro-am?  Is it up to 6 inches?

Man, imagine what kind of damage this guy could jump.

He can get up over 6 inches when he dunks the ball on the run. Flat footed he does not get up 6 inches.

[NersEllenson]

It amazed last year with what Gardner got away with when he was 20 ft from the basket. He rarely got called for a foul out there, but he fouled a lot. Maybe the refs felt sorry for him having to chase out there. However, they even up the fouls by calling Derrick Wilson everytime he touched someone.

Derrick Wilson had a bullseye on him by opposing coaches after the Wisconsin game..in my opinion...coaches always talk to refs before games...and they can point out things they want watched, etc.  Seemed like Derrick played really good defense but got called for more tick tack fouls than any player I can remember in a long time.  There were many occasions where I was absolutely dumbfounded that he got called for fouls last year.  He's a physical presence, but he did a great job of staying in front of his defender at all times...a players tries to get by him and bodies into him...they bounce backward due to DW being so stout.

[DSEEagle]

These ref conspiracies are lauaghable

[Brewtown Andy]

Not sure I agree with that. Yes, he's away from the basket on occasion but not a lot. Most of the time he just gets out-jumped. Not saying it's a problem, but he isn't a very good defensive rebounder.

15.7% of available offensive rebounds, 14.9% of available defensive rebounds.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/marquette/davante-gardner

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

15.7% of available offensive rebounds, 14.9% of available defensive rebounds.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/marquette/davante-gardner

For reference, Jae avg. 6.9% on offense, and 20.5% on defense.

[strotty]

He's one of the best o-rebounders in the conference, but even like Buzz said..the team doesn't count rebounds when you grab your own miss. Defensively, I can't remember very many times he battled for a defensive rebound and won. Most of the time it's the fact that he's in position and grabbed it.

[Lennys Tap]

He's one of the best o-rebounders in the conference, but even like Buzz said..the team doesn't count rebounds when you grab your own miss. Defensively, I can't remember very many times he battled for a defensive rebound and won. Most of the time it's the fact that he's in position and grabbed it.

I agree that rebounding your own miss shouldn't count FOR you, but only if a missed shot that you rebound doesn't count AGAINST you ("effective" offensive rebounding and field goal %). By that metric, Ox isn't quite the monster on the offensive glass that the raw numbers indicate, but his field goal % is off the charts good. I think that accurately describes Davante's game.

[bilsu]

He's one of the best o-rebounders in the conference, but even like Buzz said..the team doesn't count rebounds when you grab your own miss. Defensively, I can't remember very many times he battled for a defensive rebound and won. Most of the time it's the fact that he's in position and grabbed it.

Gardner has great hands and if he gets to the rebound he has a great chance to hang on to it. In contrast Otule will get to a lot more rebounds, but because of his vision is not able to capture them as efficiently as Gardner.

[Dawson Rental]

I do not see him as a solid rebounder. He is extremely good at rebounding his own misses and my impression is half of his rebounds come from him getting his missed shots. He does not rebound on the defensive boards.

I got no problem with any player who builds up his offensive rebounding stats by getting his own misses when that player is shooting 57% on his 2 point shots.

[Benny B]

Double digits in 30 games is hardly that big of a deal.

You need to understand that the point of Buzz's offense is to get "paint touches."  Therefore the point of his defense is to prevent paint touches.  If you don't hedge the pick and roll, you are going to get guards marching down the lane with regularity....which will cause your posts to pick up fouls much more often then when they hedge screens.

EXACTLY.... the ideal result of the hedge is that for every foul that a 5 picks up outside the lane, he's not only preventing but is also deterring at least two more easy drives, fouls, or "and 1" situations by causing the opposing offense to adjust.  (Not to mention, a foul by your 5 under the basket is two shots 99% of the time; a foul by your 5 thirty feet out is an in-bounds play more often than not.)

Additionally, if you look at many of the situations where DG caused a foul 30 feet out, he was caught in a switch where he either was outmatched (speed) or the other defender was out of position - which would create an imminent scoring opportunity for the other team.  Naturally, this will happen occasionally when you hedge, and when it does, the defender on the ball is supposed to get overly-aggressive on defense in order to get one of two things to happen: knock the ball away or draw a foul -- in either case, no bunny allowed.

I recall an occasion either last year or the year before where DG was "caught" and he knocked the ball away (without drawing the foul).  The ball would have been an easy steal, but he didn't even bother to watch where it went.  Once he jarred the ball loose, he immediately turned around to get back into position.  My immediate reaction was yelling at him to go for the ball until I realized that it was all by design.

[bilsu]

I think one of the reasons we have trouble recruiting true centers is that they look at how MU centers play. Most big men probably rather stay under the basket than run around the floor. They rather play in Syracuse's zone defense than play in MU's defense.

[bamamarquettefan]

http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8198679/duke-blue-devils-point-guard-quinn-cook-players-become-stars-expanded-roles-ncb

"2. Davante Gardner: In 19 minutes per game, the 6-foot-8 Gardner's sophomore stats were strikingly similar to [Deshaun] Thomas' freshman season. All but two of his field goal attempts were 2-pointers, and he made 57 percent of them. He got to the free throw line in droves and made 76 percent of his attempts while there. He's a solid rebounder on both offense and defense, and he takes good care of the ball.

Last season was the second in a row that Gardner put up stats showing he was deserving of more playing time. With Jae Crowder and Darius Johnson-Odom plying their trade professionally, there are shots (and minutes) to be had. Expect to hear more from Gardner."

As I've said many times, I believe he is easily our best player next year unless a still very young Blue or J. Wilson truly explode.  He is not as good as Crowder, but like Crowder, I still don't believe most of our fans truly understand how dominant he is on the offensive end and the incredible impact he is going to have on our scores.  I believe he is our most likely player to go All-Big East this year.  He is one of the most efficient scorers in the country and one of the top few offensive rebounders - and his defensive rebounding is not as mediocre as the stats make it look because he has always been in offensive defensive switches.  While certainly his defense will continue to improve, he does have some value on defense as the one guy besides Otule big enough to keep opponents off the boards and a crafty guy at stealing the loose ball.  The sky is the limit for Davante this year, so I hope we don't get a "why all the Davante Gardner love" headline like we did for Crowder :-)

[brewcity77]

These ref conspiracies are lauaghable

I hardly think saying that a freshman getting whistled more often than he deserves is any type of conspiracy. Anyone who watches basketball knows there are make-up calls and that you are less likely to get whistled if you are a well-known player. Respect is earned, and when you consider how little DW played, he didn't have much opportunity to earn any respect from the refs.

As he matures and gets more PT, I'm sure he'll also get a bit more leeway. But foul calls are different on all levels of the game. Do you really think Wilt Chamberlain never deserved to foul out? Are guys like Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron really such superior defenders that they virtually never foul 6 times in a game in the NBA? College is similar. Stars get star treatment, and make-up calls are usually made on bench players and reserves. Acknowledging that isn't a conspiracy.

[GGGG]

I think one of the reasons we have trouble recruiting true centers is that they look at how MU centers play. Most big men probably rather stay under the basket than run around the floor. They rather play in Syracuse's zone defense than play in MU's defense.

I think you are reaching here.  Watch an NBA game - the centers are all over the floor doing many of the things that Buzz wants them to do on defense.  And my general thought is that the problem with most centers is that they want to be too far out from the basket most times.  Look at Gardner at the Pro-Am for instance.

[bilsu]

I think you are reaching here.  Watch an NBA game - the centers are all over the floor doing many of the things that Buzz wants them to do on defense.  And my general thought is that the problem with most centers is that they want to be too far out from the basket most times.  Look at Gardner at the Pro-Am for instance.

NBA centers are the better athletes. MU has trouble recruiting non-atheltic centers.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

As I've said many times, I believe he is easily our best player next year unless a still very young Blue or J. Wilson truly explode.  He is not as good as Crowder, but like Crowder, I still don't believe most of our fans truly understand how dominant he is on the offensive end and the incredible impact he is going to have on our scores.  I believe he is our most likely player to go All-Big East this year.  He is one of the most efficient scorers in the country and one of the top few offensive rebounders - and his defensive rebounding is not as mediocre as the stats make it look because he has always been in offensive defensive switches.  While certainly his defense will continue to improve, he does have some value on defense as the one guy besides Otule big enough to keep opponents off the boards and a crafty guy at stealing the loose ball.  The sky is the limit for Davante this year, so I hope we don't get a "why all the Davante Gardner love" headline like we did for Crowder :-)

Man, I hope you are right.

To me, he seems like a lefty specialist in baseball. His numbers look great, but if you use him a ton, his efficiency dwindles and his flaws are exposed.

I expect gardner to have a good year, and he's the best 1/2 court scorer they have.

But, I don't know if I can project him to be MU's best player.

[4everwarriors]

Gotta recruits better 5's than Gardner to get the program to the next level.

[Henry Sugar]

Returning players that were better than average offensively last year (100).

Gardner - 118
Jamil - 104