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Next up: A long offseason

Marquette
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Marquette
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Date/Time: Oct 4, 2025
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New Mexico
75

Goose

Lazer
My point is 90% of the fan base is not going to bitch about less profile program. Of course part of that group would be disappointed but they are not going to sprint away from supporting program. MU fans have been loyal about supporting program and buying tickets. But to show apathy, how many no shows do we have for 50% of the games.

Pakuni

#26
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2012, 11:00:59 AM
Pakuni
What is your confidence level that MU will not be playing in a conference with school's like SLU three years from now? Don't you think how the conference shakes out will affect our program?
Hmmm ... first you defend yourself with an utterly illogical statement (They must want to become St. Louis, otherwise they wouldn't be making "changes") and now this even sillier point.

Conference affiliation does not, and should not, dictate identity, goals and expectations.

Does Penn State have the same basketball identity as Michigan State, Indiana and Ohio State?
Does Auburn have the same basketball expectations and goals as Kentucky?
Does Oregon State have the same expectations and goals for hoops as UCLA?
Do Memphis and Rice have similar basketball identities?
Does the Duke football program share the goals and expectations of Florida State and Virginia Tech football?
Does Vandy have the same football identity as Alabama, Florida and LSU?
Should I continue?

Heck, even in St. Louis' conference there's a wide disparity, i.e. Xavier and Temple aren't exactly the same as LaSalle and Fordham.

Goose

Do Vandy and Duke need football identity to make school more visible?
Does Penn State need basketball identity to match football identity?
Does Rice need football identity to draw students?
Should I continue?

The schools mentioned are either upscale schools or public schools that are not in same situation as MU. For MU the conference makes a major difference. Why the hell were we all excited when we joined BE? It made our program and school more visible.

MU82

My sources tell me Hiroshima could still happen.

Then again, a few other sources say it won't.

Finally, my best source tells me that my other sources are morons.

Can't all of our sources just get along?
"It's not how white men fight." - Tucker Carlson

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." - George Washington

"In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

Pakuni

Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2012, 11:13:12 AM
Do Vandy and Duke need football identity to make school more visible?
Does Penn State need basketball identity to match football identity?
Does Rice need football identity to draw students?
Should I continue?

The schools mentioned are either upscale schools or public schools that are not in same situation as MU. For MU the conference makes a major difference. Why the hell were we all excited when we joined BE? It made our program and school more visible.

So, just to keep score, you've gone from:

1. The Administration wants to make Marquette basketball more like St. Louis basketball and 90 percent of the fans won't care (historical attendance figures to the contrary notwithstanding) to
2. Marquette will be forced to become St. Louis basketball because of future conference affiliation (which is the administration's fault?) to
3. Marquette needs a high profile basketball program more than Penn St. and Rice

Fascinating to watch your position evolve.

Goose

Pakuni
You think MU and Rice are on bar academically?

Pakuni

Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2012, 11:31:12 AM
Pakuni
You think MU and Rice are on bar academically?

I'll answer that utterly irrelevant question as soon as you tell me what that has to do with Memphis and Rice sharing a conference affiliation despite widely different expectations and goals for their respective basketball programs.
If anything, though, your question proves my point, right?

madtownwarrior

you forgot the initial premise - Goose's sources say there is a huge rub between Buzz and the admin which sets forth the 1 - 3 below...   (which is obvious because of ALL the OBVIOUS signs that Buzz almost went to SMU - that part should be in teal...)



Quote from: Pakuni on May 23, 2012, 11:23:04 AM
So, just to keep score, you've gone from:

1. The Administration wants to make Marquette basketball more like St. Louis basketball and 90 percent of the fans won't care (historical attendance figures to the contrary notwithstanding) to
2. Marquette will be forced to become St. Louis basketball because of future conference affiliation (which is the administration's fault?) to
3. Marquette needs a high profile basketball program more than Penn St. and Rice

Fascinating to watch your position evolve.

Goose

Pakuni
Every conference has low end programs and they are low end for different reasons. The key for MU is to be in a conference that is top heavy and helps us get to that level. If we go backwards in type of conference the program goes backwards. Rice does not need basketball for any reason and the conference they play in is meaningless.
Truthfully I have no idea what your point is other than trying to bust me balls. By the way, I have you in the 90% camp with complete confidence.

ATWizJr

Everyone identifies with MU in different ways.  To many, MU success is characterized by the excellence of its most high visible program, the men's basketball team.  For those who identify closely with the BB program and are happy with its current trajectory a possible disturbance in the "happiness" of the coach or potential new impediments to retaining or recruiting elite players is significant.  Face it, many people think Marquette is in Michigan!  Without the high profile of basketball that lack of recognition will only serve to increase our anonymity!

I guess my point is, if you are not concerned over the "hiroshima" rumors good for you.  But, don't bust the chops of those of us who are concerned.

dgies9156

Look, this Hiroshima thing has been debated for years and aint going away. The more success we have, the bigger the debate will become. For you newbies, you should have been around in the 1970s.

You would have thought with the Al McGuire success that everything would have been peaceful and supportive. Period. No anger, no blow-ups just quiet debate over how to spend the profits from the basketball program -- which were enormous. In fact, when we were knocked out of the NCAA in the first round by Miami of Ohio in 1978, the Milwaukee Journal (now the Journal Sentinel) did a very good piece on how much the loss cost Marquette (which was independent at the time and shared with no one). It was huge.

But underneath, there was a big debate about the role of basketball in the university. Outside of Catholic circles and perhaps outside the Midwest, we were known as a basketball power. Same as UNLV, which arguably was and probably still can't hold a candle to Marquette academically. Our basketball overshadowed our scholarship. It overshadowed the accomplishments of most of our alumni (save for perhaps Senator Joe McCarthy and Professor Dan Maguire, who tended to show up on Phil Donohue's talk show to protest Catholic doctrine) and it overshadowed everything.

Many professors who work hard, think well and proffer great ideas probably resented the fact that a bunch of guys running around in their underwear with the university's name across their chest garnered millions of times more attention than their work. And, of course, the university being run by Jesuits, thought nothing of cheaping out. So they did and the program entered a glidepath down from the mountains of College Basketball's best to the point were our coach was Bob Dukiet and our losses were to Western Michigan. Thank God we didn't play UWM at the time!!!!

There's your Hiroshima.

Are we there now? No. Sure, there's folks nibbling at the edge because of some indiscretions on the part of certain Marquette athletes (which are assumed to be basketball players). And sure, if I'm a philosophy professor worred about my researech on 14th century Catholic thought in outer Bumfork, yeah, I'm still upset. But rational thinking has to take over at some point!

Marquette has to have a strong basketball program. The visibility raises money that builds buildings, funds scholarships and ensures academic strength.

The visibility causes quality students (yeah, I know, male students since I don't know too many female students who became interested in Marquette due to basketball) to at least look at the place and see what it offers. And, a strong college basketball program is one of many major cultural advantages to Milwaukee and to Marquette and ensures the community can attract and keep quality professionals in town.

That's why I don't think the Jesuits will kill the golden goose. They may have taken a vow of poverty, but they know money better than any four of us.

Blackhat


Canadian Dimes

unless I am wrong Jesuits do not take a vow of poverty

Lennys Tap

Great post, dgies. Agree on everything with one caveat. They won't INTENTIONALLY kill the golden goose. To borrow an old favorite metaphor from some Scoopers, they've been handed the keys to a Ferrari, along with a championship driver and pit crew. I hope they don't mess it up, but "smart" people have certainly screwed the pooch before at MU and elsewhere in similar situations. The momentum that the program and the university had going for it is still in evidence but I fear it's slowing. If it's ever reversed, it'll takes years to build it again. The fact that it all started with good intentions will matter not at all.

Canned Goods n Ammo

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 23, 2012, 02:07:36 PM
Great post, dgies. Agree on everything with one caveat. They won't INTENTIONALLY kill the golden goose. To borrow an old favorite metaphor from some Scoopers, they've been handed the keys to a Ferrari, along with a championship driver and pit crew. I hope they don't mess it up, but "smart" people have certainly screwed the pooch before at MU and elsewhere in similar situations. The momentum that the program and the university had going for it is still in evidence but I fear it's slowing. If it's ever reversed, it'll takes years to build it again. The fact that it all started with good intentions will matter not at all.


Is there anything that will quell your fear? Another winning season? Another contract extension? Buzz Williams promotion to AD?

I agree with your whole statement, but I guess I'm just not as scared. Maybe I'm being naive.

Lennys Tap

Quote from: 2002MUalum on May 23, 2012, 02:14:46 PM
Is there anything that will quell your fear? Another winning season? Another contract extension? Buzz Williams promotion to AD?

I agree with your whole statement, but I guess I'm just not as scared. Maybe I'm being naive.


Well, I guess if I can get to a point where I'm comfortable that Buzz and the administration a) share a vision of what MU is about and b) have a strong personal relationship, I'll be more optimistic. Really hope that happens.

You see, I still believe Buzz is not your garden variety coach. Under the right circumstances, I could see him here a long, long time - and then I think the sky's the limit. On the other side of the coin, I could see him leaving (even for what's perceive to be a lesser job) if he feels the committment the university gave him when hired wanes in any way. Remember, he left a D1 job to come here as an assistant for that very reason. And if Buzz leaves, I don't see how that won't reverse our momentum.


Pakuni

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 23, 2012, 02:49:06 PM
Well, I guess if I can get to a point where I'm comfortable that Buzz and the administration a) share a vision of what MU is about and b) have a strong personal relationship, I'll be more optimistic. Really hope that happens.

You see, I still believe Buzz is not your garden variety coach. Under the right circumstances, I could see him here a long, long time - and then I think the sky's the limit. On the other side of the coin, I could see him leaving (even for what's perceive to be a lesser job) if he feels the committment the university gave him when hired wanes in any way. Remember, he left a D1 job to come here as an assistant for that very reason. And if Buzz leaves, I don't see how that won't reverse our momentum.

What would convince you that Buzz and the administration share the same vision?

I like Buzz and hope he's at Marquette for a long time.
But if he leaves next year, it'll by no means be the ruination of the Marquette basketball program. He is not, as you implied earlier, a "championship driver" (he ought to at least win a championship first, right?). He is not irreplaceable.

Blackhat

Hell I remember the days when Crean's wife and Cord's wife were doing fundraisers together.    If I were AD with a successful coach I'd want to be seen in alliance/personalized relationship with stud coach and wife.

Blackhat

Quote from: Pakuni on May 23, 2012, 02:55:57 PM
What would convince you that Buzz and the administration share the same vision?

I like Buzz and hope he's at Marquette for a long time.
But if he leaves next year, it'll by no means be the ruination of the Marquette basketball program. He is not, as you implied earlier, a "championship driver" (he ought to at least win a championship first, right?). He is not irreplaceable.

turnover like that is not acceptable if MU wants to take the next step.   We need to be able to retain coaches otherwise Marquette b-ball may not be "ruined" but it won't be top shelf or as good as it can be if we're running off top 10 coaches.

klyrish

I hope I'm not the only one...but what the HELL are you guys talking about? What is Hiroshima? This rumored bump to 2.7 GPA for athletes to eligible for playing? If so, that's ridiculous. I wasn't an athlete and barely got out of there with a 2.83, but I was more concerned with partying and NOT studying to study.

Canned Goods n Ammo

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 23, 2012, 02:49:06 PM
Well, I guess if I can get to a point where I'm comfortable that Buzz and the administration a) share a vision of what MU is about and b) have a strong personal relationship, I'll be more optimistic. Really hope that happens.

I don't mean this as a personal attack, but from your posts, you seem very mistrusting of MU's admin. in general.

Is there something more specific you want them to do?

We've only heard innuendos and rumors about the "rift", so if Larry Williams, Pilarz and Buzz are sharing 1 rack of ribs at the BBQ, is that going to be enough to stop the paranoia?

Dawson Rental

#46
Quote from: Pakuni on May 23, 2012, 02:55:57 PM
What would convince you that Buzz and the administration share the same vision?

I like Buzz and hope he's at Marquette for a long time.
But if he leaves next year, it'll by no means be the ruination of the Marquette basketball program. He is not, as you implied earlier, a "championship driver" (he ought to at least win a championship first, right?). He is not irreplaceable.

Okay, he's replaceable, but what does that mean?  As a Big East basketball program, MU will be able to find someone to be its next head coach.  I know that just getting anyone is not what you're saying, so what are you saying?  Will MU get someone - starting without as talented a senior threesome as Buzz did, but inheriting a much better and more balanced roster overall - who will be able to go to four straight NCAA tournaments and make the sweet sixteen his third and fourth years?  I highly doubt it.  In which case, was Buzz irreplaceable or wasn't he?

With MU's current raised profile, and assuming the school puts a great deal of effort into getting the next coach, I think that MU might get the next coming of Tom Crean (but who probably wouldn't luck into a Dwyane Wade).  Realistically, that would be the ceiling, and it would be by no matter assured.  MU was extremely fortunate to have Buzz sitting there on its staff when Crean left.  I don't expect to see lighting strike twice in the same spot.  (At least not without another 44 year interval).
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

Quote from: muguru
No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

Pakuni

Quote from: Stone Cold on May 23, 2012, 02:58:38 PM
turnover like that is not acceptable if MU wants to take the next step.   We need to be able to retain coaches otherwise Marquette b-ball may not be "ruined" but it won't be top shelf or as good as it can be if we're running off top 10 coaches.

Turnover isn't helpful (unless, of course, you're turning over a lousy coach) but you can survive and thrive if you hire well. See:
Xavier - five coaches in last 15 years
Butler - four coaches in last 12 years

What's your definition of "running off?"

Remember, lots and lots of people around here thought Marquette was screwed when Crean left and the administration hired some no name headcase to replace him. It seems the opinions of Buzz have changed quite a bit since then, but not sense of imminent doom from a segment of the fanbase.

ATWizJr

Quote from: 2002MUalum on May 23, 2012, 03:15:00 PM
I don't mean this as a personal attack, but from your posts, you seem very mistrusting of MU's admin. in general.

Is there something more specific you want them to do?

We've only heard innuendos and rumors about the "rift", so if Larry Williams, Pilarz and Buzz are sharing 1 rack of ribs at the BBQ, is that going to be enough to stop the paranoia?

You don't mean this as a personal attack and then you call him paranoid?  

Blackhat

Quote from: klyrish on May 23, 2012, 03:08:24 PM
I hope I'm not the only one...but what the HELL are you guys talking about? What is Hiroshima? This rumored bump to 2.7 GPA for athletes to eligible for playing? If so, that's ridiculous. I wasn't an athlete and barely got out of there with a 2.83, but I was more concerned with partying and NOT studying to study.

I salute you compadre.  academic diversity needs to be celebrated.


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