New Standards for hoops players

[Lennys Tap]

So, Madtown, it appears your position has "evolved".

Previously, all suggestions of possible changes were ridiculed and reports that Buzz might be unhappy were mocked.

Now, it's changes are coming, you're happy they're coming and if Buzz doesn't like it he can take a hike.

That's very different, aina?

[Bocephys]

So, Madtown, it appears your position has "evolved".

Previously, all suggestions of possible changes were ridiculed and reports that Buzz might be unhappy were mocked.

Now, it's changes are coming, you're happy they're coming and if Buzz doesn't like it he can take a hike.

That's very different, aina?

Don't inject logic into this argument.  Madtown said we're all dumb for worrying about things we can't control, so that's the end of it unfortunately.

[drewm88]

On another note, if hoops12 is who I think he is, his father played at Marquette.

Austin Rivers.

[Pakuni]

On another note, if hoops12 is who I think he is, his father played at Marquette.  Good enough connection?

If my dad worked for the federal government, I'd probably know everything going on in the Oval Office.

[tower912]

- also do you not think there is a desire (and need) to make sure MU does not make newspaper headlines with alleged sexual assaults and bar fights  (I think Buzz would even agree with this)


For those that say "MU is messing with Buzz's happy"   -  are you happy with winning at a Sweet 16 level yet have sexual assault allegations, bar fight headlines, large % of transfers and players not meeting basic academic standards?   That might be Buzz's happy but I am not sure that is MU's happy"

Here is the problem with this line of thinking.   You are going to have to work awfully hard to find a university that doesn't have  1. Underage drinking.   2.   Underage students in bars.  3.   Students having sex.  4.   There being a dispute as to whether or not the sex was consensual  5.   Administrators mucking up the aftermath of 1-4.    6. Message boards/talk radio/local media get wound up over 1-5.   7.   Kids changing their minds about their collegiate choice.
  In a perfect world, MU would be immune to all of these things.  Ours is not a perfect world.  Unfortunately, it is hard to control 1-5.    The one thing that any of us has even partial control over is 6.
  So, am I 'happy' that MU is not immune from the ills of society?   Not really.    But I accept the reality of 1-5, 7.     I am coming to realize that bureaucrats can't really stray from their nature.    
 

[MUfan12]

I am coming to realize that bureaucrats can't really stray from their nature.      

Be careful, Sultan will call you a wiener.

[GGGG]

Be careful, Sultan will call you a wiener.

I have nothing wrong with tower said.  Better than a "talking point" response that paints everyone with the same broad brush.  You have no idea IF they are doing this, much less their reasoning behind it.

[Lennys Tap]

come on " the administration is going to be making things pretty difficult for Buzz."


this is laughable...  you think their goal is make things difficult for Buzz?

- do you not think the BOT or Pilarz or Williams understand the importance of a strong BBall program at MU and it's positive effect of the university

Of course their "goal" isn't to to make things difficult for Buzz. And of course they "understand" the importance of a strong BBall program at MU. Guess what? The "goal" of the group that oversaw Notre Dame's football program's demise into mediocrity wasn't to "make things difficult" for the coaches. And I'm sure they said all the right things about understanding football's importance to the university. And I'm sure they were "smart" people. Nonetheless, when the dust settled and players like Tony Rice couldn't get past the Board of Admissions that's what happened. I know you don't think the momentum Buzz has built could ever be stopped and that it'll always be seashells and balloons at MU but I'm not as confident.

[Goose]

Lenny,
Great points and right on target. Love the ND football comparison and agree completely.

[Lennys Tap]

Here is the problem with this line of thinking.   You are going to have to work awfully hard to find a university that doesn't have  1. Underage drinking.   2.   Underage students in bars.  3.   Students having sex.  4.   There being a dispute as to whether or not the sex was consensual  5.   Administrators mucking up the aftermath of 1-4.    6. Message boards/talk radio/local media get wound up over 1-5.   7.   Kids changing their minds about their collegiate choice.
  In a perfect world, MU would be immune to all of these things.  Ours is not a perfect world.  Unfortunately, it is hard to control 1-5.    The one thing that any of us has even partial control over is 6.
  So, am I 'happy' that MU is not immune from the ills of society?   Not really.    But I accept the reality of 1-5, 7.     I am coming to realize that bureaucrats can't really stray from their nature.    
 

With you 100%. And in their sincere (and elitist, IMHO) belief in their ability to "control" or change things beyond their scope, the unintended consequences can be be severe.

[Benny B]

On another note, if hoops12 is who I think he is, his father played at Marquette.  Good enough connection?

I'm just amazed that Rob Frozena has kids old enough to type at a computer.  Who knew?

[madtownwarrior]

Never mocked people "for worrying about things we can't control"  - I mock people for using "sources" to make up disaster scenarios for Marquette basketball that are unfounded or part of a tinfoil hat conspiracy.

I don't give crap about you worrying about things out of your control - better you than me...

I also mocking people who claim "don't mess with happy" when happy involves sexual assaults and bar fights and flunking players and a high majority of players no longer finishing degrees (something we used take pride in)...

(but hey that happens at all programs - so what..)

along as we win I guess is all that matters

Don't inject logic into this argument.  Madtown said we're all dumb for worrying about things we can't control, so that's the end of it unfortunately.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Of course their "goal" isn't to to make things difficult for Buzz. And of course they "understand" the importance of a strong BBall program at MU. Guess what? The "goal" of the group that oversaw Notre Dame's football program's demise into mediocrity wasn't to "make things difficult" for the coaches. And I'm sure they said all the right things about understanding football's importance to the university. And I'm sure they were "smart" people. Nonetheless, when the dust settled and players like Tony Rice couldn't get past the Board of Admissions that's what happened. I know you don't think the momentum Buzz has built could ever be stopped and that it'll always be seashells and balloons at MU but I'm not as confident.

This is a good point, and the only thing I can counter with is simply "we don't know", and that's my underlying point all along.

#1 We don't know what changes are going to be made, or the severity of such changes (they could be minor PR style moves)
#2 We don't know the effect those changes are going to have.

ND made changes, and it failed. However, to be fair, if they didn't make any changes and ended up out of control like Miami* or SMU, I don't know if ND would call that a "victory" either.

*I know Miami is an extreme example, but it's apt in this scenario because it's a very good private academic institution that has the advantage/disadvantage of carrying around the Miami rep from the 1980's.

Also, there seems to be an underlying feeling that the MU admin is sitting in some sort of ivory tower looking down it's nose at the sports teams and fans. Is this stigma because of the nickname stuff?

[jesmu84]

I also mocking people who claim "don't mess with happy" when happy involves sexual assaults and bar fights and flunking players and a high majority of players no longer finishing degrees (something we used take pride in)...

(but hey that happens at all programs - so what..)

along as we win I guess is all that matters

Can you please point out where you're getting your information for the bolded portions? At most, we've heard rumors of a player struggling academically, but no concrete facts from MU. As well, I have no idea where you're seeing a "majority" of players not getting degrees.

[Goose]

Madtown suddenly has sources on the academic progress of our players. He has been holding out.

[madtownwarrior]

flunking players  - per muguru and hiroshima (if true)

and a high majority of players no longer finishing degrees -  a discussion from this board of players not finishing degrees  - Buycks, Hayward, Crowder to name a few,  - albeit to go play pro-ball but still will take away from the graduation rate in the upcoming years....  won't be able to claim the 100% grad rate soon

[🏀]

flunking players  - per muguru and hiroshima (if true)

and a high majority of players no longer finishing degrees -  a discussion from this board of players not finishing degrees  - Buycks, Hayward, Crowder to name a few,  - albeit to go play pro-ball but still will take away from the graduation rate in the upcoming years....  won't be able to claim the 100% grad rate soon

Buycks, Hayward and Crowder are a high majority?

[madtownwarrior]

never evolved - always thought some changes were coming - but not to the level of the tinfoil hat conspiracy crowd here that claims Pilarz and Williams are trying to run Buzz out of here & to turn us into SLU....

and - yes, I am not overly thrilled with the recent MU publicity - I don't buy the it happens everywhere, it just happens that MU has it land on the cover of the Chicago Tribune more often...

and yes - I don't think athletes should be given a pass on grades...

So, Madtown, it appears your position has "evolved".

Previously, all suggestions of possible changes were ridiculed and reports that Buzz might be unhappy were mocked.

Now, it's changes are coming, you're happy they're coming and if Buzz doesn't like it he can take a hike.

That's very different, aina?

[madtownwarrior]

of the last 3 classes of graduating payers - yes...

Buycks, Hayward and Crowder are a high majority?

[🏀]

of the last 3 classes of graduating payers - yes...

Well, a majority is 51%. A 'high majority' would be something like 80-90+%.

Of the last three senior classes, 33% have not graduated. Of those that didn't graduate, they will be/are making a NBA career which forced them to leave early. So a 'high majority' isn't quite true.

[mu03eng]

flunking players  - per muguru and hiroshima (if true)

and a high majority of players no longer finishing degrees -  a discussion from this board of players not finishing degrees  - Buycks, Hayward, Crowder to name a few,  - albeit to go play pro-ball but still will take away from the graduation rate in the upcoming years....  won't be able to claim the 100% grad rate soon

I don't think we ever had a 100% graduation rate.  Hell, Wade never graduated.  We've see no evidence of a deterioration of player performance in the classroom to date or anything different than how it was 10 years ago.  Additionally, Buzz has almost no control over the players' academic performance/admittance, though he has fought for them from time to time.

So you are arguing a different point again....he are saying you are fine with standards changing because you see an academic erosion, where none truly exists.  So why would standards have to change?

[mu03eng]

never evolved - always thought some changes were coming - but not to the level of the tinfoil hat conspiracy crowd here that claims Pilarz and Williams are trying to run Buzz out of here & to turn us into SLU....

and - yes, I am not overly thrilled with the recent MU publicity - I don't buy the it happens everywhere, it just happens that MU has it land on the cover of the Chicago Tribune more often...

and yes - I don't think athletes should be given a pass on grades...

Any possibility in your mind that these changes while not intended to directly run Buzz off or decrease the emphasis on basketball, may lead to this as indirect or unintended consequences?  I think the majority of the concerned individuals on this board don't think that LW and Pilarz are attacking Buzz and mubb but that they are doing things that can be foreseen to negatively impact both situations.

Just think of the confluence of events a year from now that could really impact the future success of the program because we're messing with happy unnecessarily.
-Conference realignment(where is MU when the music stops), could be a bad situation at the same time
-Buzz leaves because he is unhappy
-MU continues to have PR issues because of an increased sensitivity in the media market and MU's inability to get out of its own way on PR matters.

All of this combines to leave MU in a very vulnerable position.....that is my concern and how we might end up as SLU if we aren't careful

[GGGG]

flunking players  - per muguru and hiroshima (if true)

and a high majority of players no longer finishing degrees -  a discussion from this board of players not finishing degrees  - Buycks, Hayward, Crowder to name a few,  - albeit to go play pro-ball but still will take away from the graduation rate in the upcoming years....  won't be able to claim the 100% grad rate soon

So we should recruit lesser players because we can't let that pesky NBA thing stand in the way of our grad rate???

[madtownwarrior]

mueng03 - agreed - MU may find itself in a SLU like situation based on the events you outlined

That's much different than the tinfoil hat crowd telling the works their sources say Pilaez and Williams desire to bring MU down to the SLU level. 

Any possibility in your mind that these changes while not intended to directly run Buzz off or decrease the emphasis on basketball, may lead to this as indirect or unintended consequences?  I think the majority of the concerned individuals on this board don't think that LW and Pilarz are attacking Buzz and mubb but that they are doing things that can be foreseen to negatively impact both situations.

Just think of the confluence of events a year from now that could really impact the future success of the program because we're messing with happy unnecessarily.
-Conference realignment(where is MU when the music stops), could be a bad situation at the same time
-Buzz leaves because he is unhappy
-MU continues to have PR issues because of an increased sensitivity in the media market and MU's inability to get out of its own way on PR matters.

All of this combines to leave MU in a very vulnerable position.....that is my concern and how we might end up as SLU if we aren't careful

[Goose]

Madtown
Becoming SLU does not happen by choice but happens by choices made.