What Others Think Of MU Academically

[Tugg Speedman]

I often traffic the running message board www.letsrun.com

Someone started a thread titled Rank the Big East schools academically?

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4552889&page=0

Many offered lists.  Below are some of them.

I thought it interesting because they are most likely opinions of those not involved with BE schools.  So, they are unbiased opinions.

So, what are you thoughts about these lists?

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Screen Name: Cave Johnson

1- Georgetown University
2- University of Pittsburgh
3- University of Notre Dame
4- Villanova University
5- University of Connecticut
6- Rutgers University
7- Syracuse University
8- Marquette University
9- Seton Hall University
10- University of Cincinnati
11- University of Louisville
12- Providence College
13- West Virginia University
14- St. John's University
15- DePaul University
16- University of South Florida

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Screen Name: Aghast

Tier 1
1) Notre Dame
2) Georgetown

Tier 2
3) University of Pittsburgh
4) Connecticut
5) Syracuse
6) Rutgers
7)Marquette

Tier 3
8) Villanova
9) Seton Hall
10) DePaul
11) Cincinnati
12) St. John's
13) Providence
14) Louisville
15) West Virginia

Tier 4
16) South Florida

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(I thought this was funny)
Screen Name: Floridian

Fixed:
1- Georgetown University
2- University of Pittsburgh
3- University of Notre Dame
4- Villanova University
5- University of Connecticut
6- Rutgers University
7- Syracuse University
8- Marquette University
9- Seton Hall University
10- University of Cincinnati
11- University of Louisville
12- Providence College
13- West Virginia University
14- St. John's University
15- DePaul University
25- University of South Florida

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Screen Name: Never Again

Tier 1
1) Notre Dame
2) Georgetown

Tier 2
3) University of Pittsburgh
4) Marquette
5) Connecticut
6) Syracuse
7) Rutgers

Tier 3
8) Villanova
9) St. John's
10) DePaul
11) Seton Hall
12) Cincinnati
13) Providence
14) Louisville
15) West Virginia

Tier 4
16) South Florida

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Screen Name:  Outsider Jones

Tier 1: ND, Georgetown
Tier 2: Pitt, Syracuse, Marquette
Tier 3: Rutgers, UConn, Villanova
Tier 4: St. Johns, DePaul, Seton Hall
Tier 5: Cincinnati, Providence, Louisville
Tier 6: West Virginia, South Florida

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Screen Name: Stevus

From the U.S. News Rankings:
#19: Notre Dame
#22: Georgetown
#58: UConn
#58: Pitt
#62: Syracuse
#68: Rutgers
#82: Marquette
#132: Depaul

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Screen Name: MilesDavis

I'd say the rankings are:
1/2: ND and Georgetown
3: Villanova
4: Syracuse
5: UCONN
6/7: Pitt and Marquette
8/9: Rutgers and Providence
10: Providence
11/12: Cincinatti and DePaul
13: Seton Hall
14: West Virginia
15: South Florida

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Screen Name:  Nodded

Whether or not this matters, but here are some recent and all time well known scholarships numbers by school.

Fulbright 10/11(could not find a recent collected list)-
Rutgers: 15
Pitt: 12
Georgetown: 12
Nova: 4
Others not ranked/unlisted.

Goldwater 11/12(for STEM undergrads)-
Pitt: 3
Rutgers: 2

Rhodes Scholars All Time-
WVU: 24(but aren't they Big 12 now?)
Georgetown: 23
Notre Dame: 14
Rutgers: 8
Pitt: 7
Cinn: 4
Nova: 2
Syracuse: 2
Others at zero.

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Screen Name: For Undergrad

1- Georgetown University
2- University of Notre Dame
3- Villanova University
4- University of Pittsburgh
5- Syracuse University
6- University of Connecticut
7- Rutgers University
8- Marquette University
9- Seton Hall University
10- University of Louisville
11- Providence College
12- University of Cincinnati
13- West Virginia University
14- St. John's University
15- DePaul University
16- University of South Florida

[Tugg Speedman]

My opinion

MU is about where I would put it.  Consistently 8th (dead middle) or better.  No one really panned it.

Surprised at how much hate they have for South Florida.  Don't know enough about them to say they are that bad.

Villanova is all over the place.  Some have it very high.  Others think it's a crap school.

[Litehouse]

Based on the US News list, I would have thought we were higher than UConn, Rutgers and Cuse.  They must have graduate programs pulling them up.  I also expected to see Villanova higher than us.  In general I agree with the tiered lists.  GU and ND are clearly on top, followed by the next bunch which includes us.

[🏀]

Middle of the road...

[chapman]

Most think of us favorably, or at least among the better half.  Though I think the opinion is invalidated for anyone who puts St. John's or DePaul below West Virginia.  But let that be a lesson about how sports success and failure can correlate to academic perception - DePaul is the 8th highest in the U.S. News rankings, but was 10-15 on all of those lists.  People who aren't from the region see a crummy basketball program and it lowers their perception of the academics as well, they see a strong basketball program and they tend to perceive the academic quality of the school more favorably.  I once had someone ask if it's difficult for MU to recruit; before he finished his sentence I took his meaning to be due to the weather or the location of Milwaukee.  Instead he finished with "...because of the academics".

[Norm]

Just my opinion, maybe because I have lived in DC now for over a decade, but Georgetown is vastly overrated on these lists.

[real chili 83]

Just my opinion, maybe because I have lived in DC now for over a decade, but Georgetown is vastly overrated on these lists.

Anyone think ND is vastly over rated too?

[Earl Tatum]

Ya! ND Sucks

[KenoshaWarrior]

Who cares about Academics.  Lets compare this years basketball teams

Marquette #2

Thats all that counts

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Based on the US News list, I would have thought we were higher than UConn, Rutgers and Cuse.  They must have graduate programs pulling them up.  I also expected to see Villanova higher than us.  In general I agree with the tiered lists.  GU and ND are clearly on top, followed by the next bunch which includes us.

I could be mistaken, but I believe US News considers Villanova a "Regional School" so they don't get ranked on the national list.  I believe they are very high on the list of Northeast schools.

[dgies9156]

This is all nonsense. The U.S. News rankings are bought and paid for by University Affairs and Public Relations Departments to allow universities to bolster prestiege and, ultimately, tuition.

I'm less concerned about what the world thinks of MU than whether it is right for my son or daughter. There are things about Marquette that work for many people -- it's urban location and access to nationally recognized cultural, civic and economic organizations. The Jesuit tradition is worth a lot and the compassion that people showed on Campus for each other and the world was worth something.

In some areas, Marquette's education is wonderful. At slightly more than 12,000 students, it has the feel of a major university and yet the intimacy of many smaller colleges. That's right for some students and a disaster for others. For engineering, journalism and business, to name three, Marquette's a very good school. For Learning Disabled students and for some liberal arts programs, well, you'll spend $40,000 a year all-in but never get the money back in salary and bonus!

Education is about what's right for a student, not how good a PR Department can be.

[GGGG]

USN&WR ratings aren't really "bought and paid for."  The problem is that they rely too much on "reputation" based rankings, and things that are relatively irrelevant to how colleges educate students.  For instance, the lower the acceptance rate for incoming freshmen, the better the ranking.

So in order to lower the rate, schools will beat the drum to up applications...basically fill one out for you to apply...only to turn around and reject you.  Now tell me, how does that make you a "better" school?  Because you spend more money on admissions?

I think most people intuitively know that Harvard is better than Marquette.  And Marquette is better than UW-Superior.  But that doesn't mean you can't get a quality education and make something of yourself at any of those institutions.

[dgies9156]

USN&WR ratings aren't really "bought and paid for."  The problem is that they rely too much on "reputation" based rankings, and things that are relatively irrelevant to how colleges educate students.  For instance, the lower the acceptance rate for incoming freshmen, the better the ranking.

I think most people intuitively know that Harvard is better than Marquette.  And Marquette is better than UW-Superior.  But that doesn't mean you can't get a quality education and make something of yourself at any of those institutions.

Sultan, ole buddy, I respectfully disagree. The efforts universities go through to prepare for and present themselves to the US News rankings is mind boggling. And I have serious questions about how "reputations" are calculated. This is not an exercise that can easily be quantified. That's why it's all BS.

On the question of getting a good education at any institution, I agree with you. I'm reminded of what a steelworker's son who grew up to be an engineer told me about college in the 1970s. He was a Vanderbilt engineering grad and told me, "college is what you put into it. Period!" He's right.

Marquette may be a better school for some people than Harvard. Sure, you won't rub elbows with the Kennedys at Marquette (I don't think), but at the undergraduate level at MU, you are taught by REAL professors, not someone trying to earn their way through graduate school.

As a side note, my Mother had a degree from UW-Superior and my father from Marquette. My degree is from Marquette and I went to UWS in the summer when I wasn't working. I can't speak to the whole university, but the classes I took at UWS weren't bad. And my Mother was an extremely accomplished educator whose contribution to early childhood education was substantial.

[GGGG]

Sultan, ole buddy, I respectfully disagree. The efforts universities go through to prepare for and present themselves to the US News rankings is mind boggling. And I have serious questions about how "reputations" are calculated. This is not an exercise that can easily be quantified. That's why it's all BS.

On the question of getting a good education at any institution, I agree with you. I'm reminded of what a steelworker's son who grew up to be an engineer told me about college in the 1970s. He was a Vanderbilt engineering grad and told me, "college is what you put into it. Period!" He's right.

Marquette may be a better school for some people than Harvard. Sure, you won't rub elbows with the Kennedys at Marquette (I don't think), but at the undergraduate level at MU, you are taught by REAL professors, not someone trying to earn their way through graduate school.

As a side note, my Mother had a degree from UW-Superior and my father from Marquette. My degree is from Marquette and I went to UWS in the summer when I wasn't working. I can't speak to the whole university, but the classes I took at UWS weren't bad.

Oh I agree that institutions spend a lot of money on the rankings....but when I hear "bought and paid for" I think "bribery," but maybe you didn't mean that.  Reputation rankings are done by sending out surveys to college presidents and the like.

[dgies9156]

Oh I agree that institutions spend a lot of money on the rankings....but when I hear "bought and paid for" I think "bribery," but maybe you didn't mean that.  Reputation rankings are done by sending out surveys to college presidents and the like.

I do live in Illinois, so "bought and paid for" could very well mean bribery. After all, the late Mike Royko wanted to change Chicago's motto to the Latin for "Where's mine?"

But you're right, that's not what I meant.

Bought and paid for in this context means millions of PR dollars poured into boosting rankings. The Wall Street Journal and Business Week both have highlighted the extreme efforts universities put into the US News rankings.

[dgies9156]

Anyone think ND is vastly over rated too?

Notre Dame is:

Nieman Marcus Name

Sax Fifth Avenue Price

Wal-Mart Education

[warriorchick]

Sultan, ole buddy, I respectfully disagree. The efforts universities go through to prepare for and present themselves to the US News rankings is mind boggling. And I have serious questions about how "reputations" are calculated. This is not an exercise that can easily be quantified. That's why it's all BS.

On the question of getting a good education at any institution, I agree with you. I'm reminded of what a steelworker's son who grew up to be an engineer told me about college in the 1970s. He was a Vanderbilt engineering grad and told me, "college is what you put into it. Period!" He's right.

Marquette may be a better school for some people than Harvard. Sure, you won't rub elbows with the Kennedys at Marquette (I don't think), but at the undergraduate level at MU, you are taught by REAL professors, not someone trying to earn their way through graduate school.

As a side note, my Mother had a degree from UW-Superior and my father from Marquette. My degree is from Marquette and I went to UWS in the summer when I wasn't working. I can't speak to the whole university, but the classes I took at UWS weren't bad. And my Mother was an extremely accomplished educator whose contribution to early childhood education was substantial.

Regarding UW-Superior, any school that is good enough for Arnold Schwartzenegger is good enough for me!

Seriously, though, who cares about what a bunch of random contributors to a sports forum think about any school's academic reputation? 

Also, until there is an truly objective way to rank schools (which will never happen), there will always be passionate disagreement.  There isn't even agreement on what broad criteria to determine a "good school" (Achievement in research? Career success?  Career success given relative talent of students?  Facilities?), much less how well particular schools meet that criteria. 

And yes, the US News criteria is bull.  For example, it uses the percentage of alum who donate as a major factor.  That is more of a measure the effectiveness of a school's Advancement Department than the quality of education your kid would receive.  It pains me to no end that Notre Dame's shameless arm-twisting of its alumni makes it a better school in US News's eyes than if they didn't.

[reinko]

Regarding UW-Superior, any school that is good enough for Arnold Schwartzenegger is good enough for me!

Seriously, though, who cares about what a bunch of random contributors to a sports forum think about any school's academic reputation? 

Also, until there is an truly objective way to rank schools (which will never happen), there will always be passionate disagreement.  There isn't even agreement on what broad criteria to determine a "good school" (Achievement in research? Career success?  Career success given relative talent of students?  Facilities?), much less how well particular schools meet that criteria. 

And yes, the US News criteria is bull.  For example, it uses the percentage of alum who donate as a major factor.  That is more of a measure the effectiveness of a school's Advancement Department than the quality of education your kid would receive.  It pains me to no end that Notre Dame's shameless arm-twisting of its alumni makes it a better school in US News's eyes than if they didn't.

Not an ND apologist, by any means.  But are you inferring many ND alums donate because they receive emails and calls, and are somewhat shamed into giving, rather than based on their own undergraduate experience at the school?  I have never an alum who has ever said, I finally gave into donating because they kept writing and calling.  That's backward-ass logic.  If folks don't want to be hounded, then the last thing you should do is donate.

[GGGG]

Regarding UW-Superior, any school that is good enough for Arnold Schwartzenegger is good enough for me!

Seriously, though, who cares about what a bunch of random contributors to a sports forum think about any school's academic reputation? 

Also, until there is an truly objective way to rank schools (which will never happen), there will always be passionate disagreement.  There isn't even agreement on what broad criteria to determine a "good school" (Achievement in research? Career success?  Career success given relative talent of students?  Facilities?), much less how well particular schools meet that criteria. 

And yes, the US News criteria is bull.  For example, it uses the percentage of alum who donate as a major factor.  That is more of a measure the effectiveness of a school's Advancement Department than the quality of education your kid would receive.  It pains me to no end that Notre Dame's shameless arm-twisting of its alumni makes it a better school in US News's eyes than if they didn't.

The fundraising people tell me that "percentage of alumni participation" is the dumbest way to look at the effectiveness of a fund raising program anyway.

[warriorchick]

Not an ND apologist, by any means.  But are you inferring many ND alums donate because they receive emails and calls, and are somewhat shamed into giving, rather than based on their own undergraduate experience at the school?  I have never an alum who has ever said, I finally gave into donating because they kept writing and calling.  That's backward-ass logic.  If folks don't want to be hounded, then the last thing you should do is donate.

I am not talking about your standard emails and phone call donation drives.  I have been told of people who have been contacted by a fellow ND alum - who may be an important business contact  or have other substantial influence - to ask why they haven't donated, or why their donations are so meager.  If your boss, or a person with whom you are doing business (or hoping to do business) is asking those questions, you probably aren't going to tell them to go eff off.

I have even heard of these arm-twisting alum pulling out a sheet of paper with the donations of the other person's business colleagues and classmates listed on it to give him some guidelines as to the approriate size of the "gift".

[LON]

I am not talking about your standard emails and phone call donation drives.  I have been told of people who have been contacted by a fellow ND alum - who may be an important business contact  or have other substantial influence - to ask why they haven't donated, or why their donations are so meager.  If your boss, or a person with whom you are doing business (or hoping to do business) is asking those questions, you probably aren't going to tell them to go eff off.

I have even heard of these arm-twisting alum pulling out a sheet of paper with the donations of the other person's business colleagues and classmates listed on it to give him some guidelines as to the approriate size of the "gift".

That seems like...such an ND way to do something.

[dgies9156]

Regarding UW-Superior, any school that is good enough for Arnold Schwartzenegger is good enough for me!

Not to mention my Mother!!!!

There's one HUGE problem with UW-Superior! Ever been to Superior in January or February?

Heck, even Santa Claus thinks Superior is just too darn cold in January!!!

[Bocephys]

That seems like...such an ND way to do something.

My thoughts exactly.  ND Alums are the original "Bro"s

[warthog-driver]

the late Mike Royko wanted to change Chicago's motto to the Latin for "Where's mine?"

Mike Royko. That's a name from the past. When living overseas, I used to get the Intl Herald Tribune for the box scores and Royko's column. That man could write.

[🏀]

Mike Royko. That's a name from the past. When living overseas, I used to get the Intl Herald Tribune for the box scores and Royko's column. That man could write.

Best that ever was... best there ever will be...