As bad as this is...

[77fan88warrior]

Four years later it is time to start a Crean bashing forum. ZFB's April Fool's post belongs on Hangin' at the Al before this perpetually served nonsense. Saga could only reserve the same food a few times. Any body else wish someone else was still on their own self imposed sabbatical. It might be time to start the Tom Crean Haters and chico's circle jerk forum. We might see a death by self flagellation.

[warthog-driver]

SAGA  - Soviet Attempt to Gas America

[warthog-driver]

Imagine being down 30 at halftime. 30 for chrissakes!! At halftime!

Certainly one of the most shameful moments in MU history. To have D Wade, Novak, Diener, Jackson, Merritt al and choke so badly on the game's biggest stage was beyond embarrassing.

Worse, though, was not even making the dance the next few years. The nadir was getting humbled by Western Michigan. Hideous.

[Hoopaloop]

Certainly one of the most shameful moments in MU history. To have D Wade, Novak, Diener, Jackson, Merritt al and choke so badly on the game's biggest stage was beyond embarrassing.

Worse, though, was not even making the dance the next few years. The nadir was getting humbled by Western Michigan. Hideous.

Reminds me of a team last year that had Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, DJO, Vander Blue, Dwight Buycks, etc,  but also shot terribly and also was beaten badly by another blue blood program.  Difference is, last year’s team didn’t win 4 games first including a trouncing of #1 Kentucky. 

Some people get embarrassed by things in one year and are not embarrassed by a similar performance in another year.  The primary difference being the coach.

Me, I was proud we made it to the Sweet 16 last year and proud we made our first Final Four in 25 years in 2003.  Both ended in spectacular thrashings at the hands of a blue blood program, but in 2003 the guys got Final Four rings and last year they didn't.  In the end, be proud of the team's accomplishments.

[wadesworld]

Reminds me of a team last year that had Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, DJO, Vander Blue, Dwight Buycks, etc,  but also shot terribly and also was beaten badly by another blue blood program.  Difference is, last year’s team didn’t win 4 games first including a trouncing of #1 Kentucky. 

Some people get embarrassed by things in one year and are not embarrassed by a similar performance in another year.  The primary difference being the coach.

Me, I was proud we made it to the Sweet 16 last year and proud we made our first Final Four in 25 years in 2003.  Both ended in spectacular thrashings at the hands of a blue blood program, but in 2003 the guys got Final Four rings and last year they didn't.  In the end, be proud of the team's accomplishments.

  Chicos defending Crean's team? Shocking.

Seriously, though, you're comparing last year's team to the 2003 team? Wow.

[CTWarrior]

Reminds me of a team last year that had Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, DJO, Vander Blue, Dwight Buycks, etc,  but also shot terribly and also was beaten badly by another blue blood program.  Difference is, last year’s team didn’t win 4 games first including a trouncing of #1 Kentucky.  

Some people get embarrassed by things in one year and are not embarrassed by a similar performance in another year.  The primary difference being the coach.

Not for nothing, but last year's far less talented team battled UNC (who was just as good as the 2003 Kansas team) for 40 minutes and actually cut the deficit to 14 with about 4 1/2 minutes to go in the second half while the 2003 team curled up into the fetal position and turned a 29 point half-time deficit to a 39 point deficit in the first two(!) minutes of the second half and never got within 30 again.

I hate the way Crean left but I appreciate what he accomplished here.  But to characterize that FF loss to Kansas as anything other than an unparalleled epic debacle is just plain wrong.   I know Penn got hammered by Michigan State in 1979, but considering everything, that loss was easily the worst loss in the history of the Final Four.  And to do that with a roster that included 3 NBA players including an all-time great against an opponent that, while good, was nothing historically special in terms of Final Four quality is particularly awful.

[Sir Lawrence]

Here is the recap of that game:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/ncaatourney03/story?id=1534397

Money quote:

Kansas leads 79-39, 13:15 left, second half
How bad is it for Marquette? The Golden Eagles are out of timeouts with 13 minutes left.

[hairy worthen]

Oh, what a witty comeback!

I am not Joanie, Jim, Jack or any other Harbaugh or Crean. I'm just sick of the non-stop Crean bashing.

Is hoopaloop holding a gun to your head to read the thread. If you don't like it, look at something else.

Me, I love a good Crean bashing thread, especially coming off the glow of another FFC day.

[Hoopaloop]

Not for nothing, but last year's far less talented team battled UNC (who was just as good as the 2003 Kansas team) for 40 minutes and actually cut the deficit to 14 with about 4 1/2 minutes to go in the second half while the 2003 team curled up into the fetal position and turned a 29 point half-time deficit to a 39 point deficit in the first two(!) minutes of the second half and never got within 30 again.

I hate the way Crean left but I appreciate what he accomplished here.  But to characterize that FF loss to Kansas as anything other than an unparalleled epic debacle is just plain wrong.   I know Penn got hammered by Michigan State in 1979, but considering everything, that loss was easily the worst loss in the history of the Final Four.  And to do that with a roster that included 3 NBA players including an all-time great against an opponent that, while good, was nothing historically special in terms of Final Four quality is particularly awful.

Who here is not saying it wasn't a terrible loss?  Of course it was.  We shot under 30%. Diener was like 15% or something.  If I recall, only 1 or 2 guys shot 50% for the game.  We were terrible in all facets.

Here's the issue I have with it.  We beat #1 Kentucky the same week and went to the Final Four for the first time in 25 years.  We haven't been back since and we hadn't gone since 1977.  Please tell me if someone other than Tom Crean had his name assigned to that team that people would focus more on the great run we had than the poor finish against the national runner-up.  We all know that is a true statement.  Substitute Crean's name with somebody else and this constant silliness that pops up by the same posters here ends. 

You believe UNC from 2011 was as good as that KU team in 2003?  I don't, but I respect your opinion.  KU went to the national title game and lost to Syracuse by 3.  UNC didn't even get to the Final Four and lost to a team that didn't even get to the title game.  I am not comparing MU's 2011 team to MU's 2003 team, but I do find the reactions people have to blowout embarrassing losses in the tournament based on who the coach was to be more than eye opening.

[CTWarrior]

Who here is not saying it wasn't a terrible loss?  Of course it was.  We shot under 30%. Diener was like 15% or something.  If I recall, only 1 or 2 guys shot 50% for the game.  We were terrible in all facets.

You were comparing it to last year's loss to UNC by saying it reminded you of that game, and I disagree 100%that the games were similar.  One was a bubble team losing to a 2 seed by 18 and the other was a top 10 team losing to another top 10 in perhaps the most one-sided game in Final Four history in what should have been an evenly matched game.  We were a very talented team that played like Prairie View A & M against Kansas.  They probably didn't have an easier win all season. 

I rarely get involved in the Crean discussions because they are pointless and nobody ever convinces anybody of anything.  Of course he was good for the school/basketball program and of course he was and still is a self-aggrandizing so-and-so.  He had made his contribution and it was time for him to move on.  I'm glad we have Buzz and I'm glad Crean got him here.

[Hoopaloop]

You were comparing it to last year's loss to UNC by saying it reminded you of that game, and I disagree 100%that the games were similar.  One was a bubble team losing to a 2 seed by 18 and the other was a top 10 team losing to another top 10 in perhaps the most one-sided game in Final Four history in what should have been an evenly matched game.  We were a very talented team that played like Prairie View A & M against Kansas.  They probably didn't have an easier win all season. 

I rarely get involved in the Crean discussions because they are pointless and nobody ever convinces anybody of anything.  Of course he was good for the school/basketball program and of course he was and still is a self-aggrandizing so-and-so.  He had made his contribution and it was time for him to move on.  I'm glad we have Buzz and I'm glad Crean got him here.

I was trying to compare the severity of losses.  You are correct, the two teams were not equal.  If people were honest with themselves they would acknowledge we weren't better Kentucky but we beat them on that day to advance to the Final Four.  I contend some people here would rather we lost that KY game then go to the Final Four and lose badly to KU. I know if it was a different coach some of these same guys would respond differently. I do not understand that line of thinking.  A team that is blown out in the Super Bowl is still the conference champion and their season is not summed up in one game.  Of course it was lousy how the players found out.  That is more and more the norm with 24/7 news cycles, especially at major programs like IU, KU, UK because there is so much scrutiny to release to the world who the new coach is. 

[brewcity77]

Here's the issue I have with it.  We beat #1 Kentucky the same week and went to the Final Four for the first time in 25 years.  We haven't been back since and we hadn't gone since 1977.  Please tell me if someone other than Tom Crean had his name assigned to that team that people would focus more on the great run we had than the poor finish against the national runner-up.  We all know that is a true statement.  Substitute Crean's name with somebody else and this constant silliness that pops up by the same posters here ends.

Hoop...have you ever been on this site after a loss? Okay, granted, that FF loss was awful, painful, wretched, but is that reaction much different to other losses? Did you pay any attention to this board last year? All we heard about was how Buzz couldn't coach defense. How Buzz clearly lost the team in the St. John's game. You would have thought Buzz was the most inept coach in the Big East based on what was written on here last year, and that includes some stuff from people that are pretty blatant Buzz fans.

Ugly losses stir the emotions. No matter who was in charge of that 2003 loss, it would be remembered in a disappointing fashion. Not because of the coach, but because LOSING BY 33 IN THE FINAL FOUR IS DISAPPOINTING!!! Every season, the coach comes under scrutiny. Buzz did repeatedly last year. This year it was less frequent because of our generally successful results, but if we are 19-12 going into the Big East tourney next year, I guarantee you there will be a lot of people that spent a lot of time complaining about the job he did. It's the nature of coaching.

I think even the most ardent Crean-bashers would be hard-pressed to deny that he did positive things for Marquette. He brought us back into the national spotlight, he unearthed Dwyane Wade (even if they contend he got lucky, it still happened), he helped get us to the Big East, and he brought in Buzz Williams. But that doesn't change that he was at the controls when we suffered the most embarrassing loss in school history, that from a recruiting perspective he essentially squandered that Final Four, and that he left in a rather asinine fashion.

There's good, there's bad. That's life. And since he's gone now, some tend to focus on the bad because the last memory they have is of a tanned visage standing behind them in the mirror as they feel the twisting of the knife between their shoulder blades. Just because you don't tend to focus on the end of the relationship doesn't mean there wasn't some bad to go along with quite a few good memories.

[Hoopaloop]

I think even the most ardent Crean-bashers would be hard-pressed to deny that he did positive things for Marquette. He brought us back into the national spotlight, he unearthed Dwyane Wade (even if they contend he got lucky, it still happened), he helped get us to the Big East, and he brought in Buzz Williams. But that doesn't change that he was at the controls when we suffered the most embarrassing loss in school history, that from a recruiting perspective he essentially squandered that Final Four, and that he left in a rather asinine fashion.

There's good, there's bad. That's life. And since he's gone now, some tend to focus on the bad because the last memory they have is of a tanned visage standing behind them in the mirror as they feel the twisting of the knife between their shoulder blades. Just because you don't tend to focus on the end of the relationship doesn't mean there wasn't some bad to go along with quite a few good memories.

I think you give these people entirely too much credit.  4 years later and the maturity level actually gets worse with a number of them.  Tower or someone said it best the other day.  It is so petty and makes our fans look sillier and sillier with each passing year. 

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

But that doesn't change that he was at the controls when we suffered the most embarrassing loss in school history...

We also lost on national TV...by 47 points...to Louisville. Forty. Seven. Points.

[Canadian Dimes]

Who here is not saying it wasn't a terrible loss?  Of course it was.  We shot under 30%. Diener was like 15% or something.  If I recall, only 1 or 2 guys shot 50% for the game.  We were terrible in all facets.

Here's the issue I have with it.  We beat #1 Kentucky the same week and went to the Final Four for the first time in 25 years.  We haven't been back since and we hadn't gone since 1977.  Please tell me if someone other than Tom Crean had his name assigned to that team that people would focus more on the great run we had than the poor finish against the national runner-up.  We all know that is a true statement.  Substitute Crean's name with somebody else and this constant silliness that pops up by the same posters here ends. 

You believe UNC from 2011 was as good as that KU team in 2003?  I don't, but I respect your opinion.  KU went to the national title game and lost to Syracuse by 3.  UNC didn't even get to the Final Four and lost to a team that didn't even get to the title game.  I am not comparing MU's 2011 team to MU's 2003 team, but I do find the reactions people have to blowout embarrassing losses in the tournament based on who the coach was to be more than eye opening.

Actually i beleive the point was the reason we got beat so badly was our coach choked.  Nothing else.  The only comparison to last yrs unc game is that there is no comparing the two teams talent level and the fact that our current coach got our team to nut up last year and fight while Crean never knew what hit him .

[NersEllenson]

I think you give these people entirely too much credit.  4 years later and the maturity level actually gets worse with a number of them.  Tower or someone said it best the other day.  It is so petty and makes our fans look sillier and sillier with each passing year. 

To me the bigger issue has always been, why try to belittle our current coaches accomplishments to defend the previous coach who chose to depart MU?  Its as though you've been hell bent on doing everything you can to diminish/belittle Buzz Williams performance in order to champion Tom Crean's. I never had an issue with Crean at all..until reading all the posts of yours that took pot shots at our current coach (the past 4 years) and championed Crean.  It was at that point that I then began to argue against your Crean positions, due to being very pleased with Buzz..and wanting to support Buzz (our current coach)!!

[Hoopaloop]

Actually i beleive the point was the reason we got beat so badly was our coach choked.  Nothing else.  The only comparison to last yrs unc game is that there is no comparing the two teams talent level and the fact that our current coach got our team to nut up last year and fight while Crean never knew what hit him .

So then that same coach didn't choke the week before as we beat #1 Kentucky. Right?  Or only when we lost did the coach choke and when we won it was the players.   

I'm sure our losing had nothing to do with Novak going 1-7, Diener 1-11, Merritt 5-14, Bradley 1-7, Townsend 0-3, Chapman 0-3, etc, etc.  Coaches can't shoot for players.

We nutted up plenty of times during the TC regime and beat teams with better talent or hung in there with those that didn't.  Some games we didn't.  There were some bad games in the TC era and some really good ones, too. 

He doesn't come to MU, no Buzz, no Big East, no Wade, no Novak, no Diener, no Lazar, no Wes, etc. 

[warthog-driver]

So then that same coach didn't choke the week before as we beat #1 Kentucky. Right?  Or only when we lost did the coach choke and when we won it was the players.   

He doesn't come to MU, no Buzz, no Big East, no Wade, no Novak, no Diener, no Lazar, no Wes, etc. 

Good Lord...welcome back Bail Bondsman

[Canadian Dimes]

So then that same coach didn't choke the week before as we beat #1 Kentucky. Right?  Or only when we lost did the coach choke and when we won it was the players.   

I'm sure our losing had nothing to do with Novak going 1-7, Diener 1-11, Merritt 5-14, Bradley 1-7, Townsend 0-3, Chapman 0-3, etc, etc.  Coaches can't shoot for players.

We nutted up plenty of times during the TC regime and beat teams with better talent or hung in there with those that didn't.  Some games we didn't.  There were some bad games in the TC era and some really good ones, too. 

He doesn't come to MU, no Buzz, no Big East, no Wade, no Novak, no Diener, no Lazar, no Wes, etc. 

No big east... I still love that one

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

I think you give these people entirely too much credit.  4 years later and the maturity level actually gets worse with a number of them.  Tower or someone said it best the other day.  It is so petty and makes our fans look sillier and sillier with each passing year. 

Probably true. But what does this say about a person who pathologically must respond to every post on MUScoop that could possibly be related to Crean or Crean's tenure in order to defend Crean?

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

I think you give these people entirely too much credit.  4 years later and the maturity level actually gets worse with a number of them.  Tower or someone said it best the other day.  It is so petty and makes our fans look sillier and sillier with each passing year. 

Also, what does it say about someone who would create an alternative internet personality to continue his campaign of reviving the reputation of that former coach? Who is crazier -- the fan who deplores the way that Crean left Marquette or the fan who will invent a fake nom de cyber in order to excuse the way Crean left?

[Canadian Dimes]

not only that but make up a wholly different charcter?  Never any doubt the guy had issues but he is taking it to a whole new level.  really pathetic life

[cheebs09]

Probably true. But what does this say about a person who pathologically must respond to every post on MUScoop that could possibly be related to Crean or Crean's tenure in order to defend Crean?

I agree there warrior07. I honestly don't think every Crean post here is meant to spark a debate. One of the reasons I like this board so much is the sense of humor of some of the posters. Honestly, I enjoy most of the Crean posts just because they seem funny to me. The endless debate after them are painful to read and just people taking a joke far too seriously.

[Golden Avalanche]

This forum will be downright insufferable next season when Indiana enters the season ranked in the top five.

Give it up.

[Lennys Tap]

I agree there warrior07. I honestly don't think every Crean post here is meant to spark a debate. One of the reasons I like this board so much is the sense of humor of some of the posters. Honestly, I enjoy most of the Crean posts just because they seem funny to me. The endless debate after them are painful to read and just people taking a joke far too seriously.

Ding, Ding, Ding. Cheebs, you hit the nail on the head.

To be funny (see 4ever, ZFB, PRN, Warthog, etc) requires insight and insight allows one to see what a phony, self serving tool TC is. The result? Mostly spot on, often hilarious comments about the departed.

The notoriously unfunny (Hoop, his BFF. etc) don't get the joke. This results in long winded, tedious and repetitive defenses of all things Crean/Harbaugh in which anger and namecalling substitute for humor.