OT: if you needed any more reasons to hate the Yankees...

[mu03eng]

Once again Nate, your facts are off.  No true Red Sox fan blames Buckner.  Yeah he booted the play but he never should have been in there in the first place.  McNamara always lifted him in the late innings for Dave Stapleton which he didn't do in this case.  Also even if Buckner gets the ball he might not get Mookie out because Mookie was just about the fastest guy in the league at the time.

Also that was Game 6.  The Sox were up 3-0 in game 7 and blew it.  Again the media blows the Buckner thing out of proportion.  Just like Bucky F'in Dent in 78, Reggie Jackson's homerun in the 8th was what won the game not Dent.

Tearing down Fenway wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, however you would have to make the new Fenway something similiar.  However, the stadium is not that bad and its worth it given the feeling being there.  I'm 6'4" so I would think I have more to complain about.  Plus the Monster seats and area are outstanding.  I hate the Cubs but I couldn't imagine them tearing down Wrigley.  I'm with Spartan, it would be freaking stupid.

[NYWarrior]

Fenway has to be the worst.  Their is nothing more fun than tiny concourses, looking having to turn your head 45 degrees to see a pitch, and leg room that even me at 5'3 feel claustrophobic.

Wrigley is a lot better than fenway, but if you dont have a good seat you have to watch the games on a television monitor, plus you can always be stuck behind a poll.

You need to get back to Fenway......the new ownership is doing a terific job with the park, creating new wide concourses on both baselines, adding the Monster seats and redoing everything underneath and around the OF seats.  The new Tony C's corner just opened near the Bud Pavillion, and the EMC box is fab.  The park turns 100 soon, and every year up to that you can expect to see more improvement.......rumor up here is that in the off-season leading into the 100th, the seats will be retrofitted and tilted towards the plate.

Great park.

[BigSky]

I'm a fan of Wrigley, Fenway, and Yankee stadium.  For many reasons.  But I am not one who thinks those parks don't have shortcomings that need to be changed.

There is nothing wrong with renovation and keeping the location and other fell to the parks.  Wrigley desperately needs grandstand and other renovations, ...bathrooms, etc...the positives outweigh the negatives, but changes need to be made. 

Fenway has those new seats behind home plate upstairs for $150 a pop, 7 year minimum commitment.  And sitting in the original seats for many games is challenging for anyone of average size or more. 

Yankee Stadium has the auora, the history, the view etc...but doesn't have the Wrigley/Fenway sight lines....etc....or neighborhood of activity. 

If you can improve but replicate good parks, nothing wrong with that...if you get it right. 

[muwarrior87]

Yawn.......outside of the ESPN studios and NYC, no one cares.

I can't stand all the poser Yankee fans around the country, though.  They make Cubs fans look intelligent.

lets not go that far... Cubs fans believe that a Billy Goat is not letting their team win the world series

Actually, true Cub fans don't believe that.  We don't blame Steve Bartman either.

Went to the Brewers Pirates game on Thursday with a Cub hat on.  Once it became apparent the Brew crew was going to lose, the entire section I was in began chanting "Cubbies suck".  Now that's intelligent!

Why isn't that intelligent?  The Cubs DO suck, and so do their fans.  The fans in Milwaukee only speak the truth.

GO BREWERS.

Home from school today?  First place in early May is making you delirious.

Because if the Cubs would have the best recrod in baseball you would keep your mouth shut...    ... please, we would be hearing ALL ABOUT IT from the "intelligent" fans...

what is intelligent is wearing a Cubs hat to a Brewer-Pirate game... sorry thats just bad on your part, I would have called you explicit words... one most likely starting with an A 

and why Brewer fans hate Cub fans... when in Millwer Park the Cub/Brewer rivalry (and no Im not mad that Cub fans spend money up here, keep it coming), but they absolutely trash the stadium.. my friend runs the bat stand in Miller Park (the Sawmill Slat stand), and he says every year every game multiple Cubs fans try to steal bats that they have out on display, every year, when that doesn't happen the rest of the year.  Cub fans are classless, annoying, naive, and then try and drink with their Brewer fan friends, and struggle mightily!     ... best record in baseball, try and knock us off our soapbox!  We are ten games over .500 for the first time since 92, can't we have our moment, even if it is in May?

Well put McCheese, well put...I don't care where you are in the season, being 10 games over .500, especially in the beginning of May, is a pretty good reason to celebrate, especioall when it hasn't been done by your club in 15 years. I'm not making the brewers out to be the best team in the world but right now they are. If they can get through the rather difficult first half of May and are in a similar position, then by all means, this team has a legit shot at the playoffs and at a run in the playoffs.

[🏀]

Wrigley and Fenway aren't going anywhere. Improvements will continue. The Wrigley bleachers were redone that they are stellar.

If Chicago gets the Olympics, I would put money on the Cubs retrofitting the Olympic stadium to play baseball there for a year while the Wrigley grandstands are rebuilt/renovated.

[BigSky]

Nothing wrong with a little excitement, especially when your team has been down for so long....but baseball is a 6 month grind.  Can't get too high or low, especially 5 weeks into the season.  If a team is in the race in July, or August 1st, excitement builds.  Any talk more than just enjoying day to day early success or progress, is pretty premature for Brewer fans...even if they are desperate for some more competitive baseball.  Winning baseball for several months, and in person NHL playoffs, are two of the most exciting things in sports.  imo.       

[jmayer1]

Wrigley and Fenway aren't going anywhere. Improvements will continue. The Wrigley bleachers were redone that they are stellar.

If Chicago gets the Olympics, I would put money on the Cubs retrofitting the Olympic stadium to play baseball there for a year while the Wrigley grandstands are rebuilt/renovated.

That wouldn't be a bad idea, but they have already said the Olympic Stadium will be torn down after the Olympics because it would be financed by future expected Olympic revenue and the IOC doesn't want cities to use Olympic revenue to finance permanent facilities.  If you ask me, I think its pretty stupid to build a $300 million stadium and then tear it down; but obviously I'm not making those calls.  Of course Chicago needs to get the bid first anyway.

[CTWarrior]

As for the Jeter/Posada/Bernie/Mo home-grown talent argument, please. That's four players. They bought the other 21.  

I know I'm getting in on this late, but three of those four home grown players (Jug Ears, Bernie and Mo) were signed by the Yankees as free agents, not drafted.  Besides free agents, the Yankees spend more money on foreign born players not subject to the draft than anyone else.  They use their money as a weapon in more than just the free agent arena.

The argument that some make that the Red Sox are just like the Yankees except less successful is wrong.  The Red Sox have a budget (granted it is larger than everyone else's), but they spend more than everyone else for two reasons.  The first is that they have to because unlike the Cubs or the Dodgers or somebody, they are in direct competition with the Yankees for the postseason.  Two, because they can.  They have as loyal a fan base as any team in any sport in the country and it spreads far into the six New England states.  Boston itself is roughly the same population as Milwaukee ( little smaller, actually, I think).  But if you ever go to Boston, you will be surprised at how prevalent the Red Sox logo is on people, buildings, shops, etc.  Far, far, far more than I've seen for any other team in any other area.

[Mayor McCheese]

is it wrong of me to hate the Red Sox more than the Yankees... heres why

Yankee fans know everyone hates them, and that they are the enemy due to their money spending, they accept it.

Red Sox fans feel they are completely different then the Yankees, but in reality, they are the EXACT same, if not worse.  They spent more money to talk to Dice-K then the Brewers spend on their whole team in a year.  Another reason why I hate the Red Sox more is due to their fans, who think they are the best in the world, when in reality 75% of Red Sox fans have no clue about baseball and just like them because its a trend.

[spartan3186]

when in reality 75% of Red Sox fans have no clue about baseball and just like them because its a trend

That is a huge exageration. There is no way that 75% like them just becuase of the trend. That number is <5%. There will always be people jumping on the band wagon, I saw it happen with the Cubs, it is happening right now with Golden State. But there is no way that 75% of a teams fan base comes from that band wagon that is absurd.

[Mayor McCheese]

when in reality 75% of Red Sox fans have no clue about baseball and just like them because its a trend

That is a huge exageration. There is no way that 75% like them just becuase of the trend. That number is <5%. There will always be people jumping on the band wagon, I saw it happen with the Cubs, it is happening right now with Golden State. But there is no way that 75% of a teams fan base comes from that band wagon that is absurd.

Are you kidding me, going to school, I see more people with Red Sox hats then I could ever imagine my first three years.  They wore it because everyone else did, where else would their tie to Boston be?  Now the trend is the Brewers, which I am loving, but know that most of these fans are bandwagon jumpers.. In the fall the trend was the Chicago Bears.  When you hear from multiple people that the Green Bay Packers are their favorite team, and the Chicago Bears are their second, I am sorry, that just is a lack of football knowledge.

[NYWarrior]

when in reality 75% of Red Sox fans have no clue about baseball and just like them because its a trend

That is a huge exageration. There is no way that 75% like them just becuase of the trend. That number is <5%. There will always be people jumping on the band wagon, I saw it happen with the Cubs, it is happening right now with Golden State. But there is no way that 75% of a teams fan base comes from that band wagon that is absurd.

well done, Sparty.  BTW, I've noticed plenty of Cardinals caps out east this year too, not do mention Colts t-shirts.  Darn bandwagoneers!

If folks wanna rip the Red Sox for spending a ton -- fine, that's fair game. But the B.S. about the fan base as clueless or late-comers is nuts.  Their attendance swooned in the immediate post-Williams era but the Impossible Dream season of 1967 rallied the fan base for decades to come, http://www.sonsofsamhorn.net/wiki/index.php/Red_Sox_Attendance_per_Season].

If anything, fans in Boston are too obsessed with their team -- many players (most recently David Wells) have said that the community doesnt let players breathe off the field .... the excessive scrutiny and focus for the 25 man roster is a challenge for many, and unlike any other city in MLB (good or bad -- bad in many cases).

[mu03eng]

when in reality 75% of Red Sox fans have no clue about baseball and just like them because its a trend

That is a huge exageration. There is no way that 75% like them just becuase of the trend. That number is <5%. There will always be people jumping on the band wagon, I saw it happen with the Cubs, it is happening right now with Golden State. But there is no way that 75% of a teams fan base comes from that band wagon that is absurd.

Are you kidding me, going to school, I see more people with Red Sox hats then I could ever imagine my first three years.  They wore it because everyone else did, where else would their tie to Boston be?  Now the trend is the Brewers, which I am loving, but know that most of these fans are bandwagon jumpers.. In the fall the trend was the Chicago Bears.  When you hear from multiple people that the Green Bay Packers are their favorite team, and the Chicago Bears are their second, I am sorry, that just is a lack of football knowledge.

So wait because you see a bunch of people in Wisconsin wearing Sox gear you assume they are just wearing it to be cool?  You are saying that all these people have no reason to cheer for the Red Sox, couldn't be that they brought up that way or lived in Boston for a period of time or something like that?  Basically, you are assuming you have no evidence that these people are band wagon jumpers.

Having said all that, I believe the more you move out of the Northeast the more you have bandwagon people than true fans, however I would argue that in total you have no more than 10% of the claimed fanbase being jumpers.  The fanbase is so big though that the 10% seems like a lot of people.  A lot of this disagreement is because of a media thing.....they like playing up all of these stereotypes and here in the midwest we don't see the fan base for what it really is.

Mayor we do agree on the lack of knowledge in some fans.  I once dated a girl who claimed to love both the Yankees and the Red Sox......we broke up pretty soon after that confesion.

[mu03eng]

when in reality 75% of Red Sox fans have no clue about baseball and just like them because its a trend

That is a huge exageration. There is no way that 75% like them just becuase of the trend. That number is <5%. There will always be people jumping on the band wagon, I saw it happen with the Cubs, it is happening right now with Golden State. But there is no way that 75% of a teams fan base comes from that band wagon that is absurd.

well done, Sparty.  BTW, I've noticed plenty of Cardinals caps out east this year too, not do mention Colts t-shirts.  Darn bandwagoneers!

If folks wanna rip the Red Sox for spending a ton -- fine, that's fair game. But the B.S. about the fan base as clueless or late-comers is nuts.  Their attendance swooned in the immediate post-Williams era but the Impossible Dream season of 1967 rallied the fan base for decades to come, http://www.sonsofsamhorn.net/wiki/index.php/Red_Sox_Attendance_per_Season].

If anything, fans in Boston are too obsessed with their team -- many players (most recently David Wells) have said that the community doesnt let players breathe off the field .... the excessive scrutiny and focus for the 25 man roster is a challenge for many, and unlike any other city in MLB (good or bad -- bad in many cases).

If you ever want media attention play for the Red Sox, my god its insane.  Its nice being a Saux fan in the midwest because I can get all the coverage I want of the team, but you get hacks like Dan Shannessy that develop a God complex because they cover the Red Sox every day.  Just crazy how fanatical the whole state of Massachusetts is.

[BigSky]

As for the Jeter/Posada/Bernie/Mo home-grown talent argument, please. That's four players. They bought the other 21.  

I know I'm getting in on this late, but three of those four home grown players (Jug Ears, Bernie and Mo) were signed by the Yankees as free agents, not drafted.  Besides free agents, the Yankees spend more money on foreign born players not subject to the draft than anyone else.  They use their money as a weapon in more than just the free agent arena.

The argument that some make that the Red Sox are just like the Yankees except less successful is wrong.  The Red Sox have a budget (granted it is larger than everyone else's), but they spend more than everyone else for two reasons.  The first is that they have to because unlike the Cubs or the Dodgers or somebody, they are in direct competition with the Yankees for the postseason.  Two, because they can.  They have as loyal a fan base as any team in any sport in the country and it spreads far into the six New England states.  Boston itself is roughly the same population as Milwaukee ( little smaller, actually, I think).  But if you ever go to Boston, you will be surprised at how prevalent the Red Sox logo is on people, buildings, shops, etc.  Far, far, far more than I've seen for any other team in any other area.

The point made is that the Red Sox are similar to the Yankees because of their enormous payroll and win at all costs approach to the game.  Nobody said they couldn't do it with their regional following and NESN network etc...and revenue.  Sure they do it because they can....which makes them very similar to the Yankees.  The Red Sox simply do not win as much as the Yankees.  Do they spend the same as NY?  No, is it huge money?  Yes.  Way more than the rest of baseball?  Yes.  Should they win a lot more than they do?  Yes. 

There are good and bad fans everywhere, but this is not the first time nor last I will come across someone saying that the Red Sox are this little engine that could that has to compete with the big bad Yankees.  Boston itself, is approx 10th largest market in country.  Combine that with all of the other states and parts of that region that don't have other teams to root for, and the tv revenue,.....the downplaying of Red Sox revenue and market size is laughable. 

Hey, Red Sox, knock yourselves out, well within the rules, etc...doesn't bother me one bit.  However let's at least put the accurate cards on the table.  Boston is a heck of a lot closer to NY than the rest of MLB.  Not even close.

Yes I'll take a seat behind home plate upper tier please.  Ok sir that will be season tickets requirement, $150 a pop, two minimum, with a minimum of 7 year commitment.  The Little Engine that could.   

[mu03eng]

BigSky, you have to look at it from the perspective of who started it.  The Yankees fueled this whole thing when Steinbrenner took over and started increasing payroll.  Take a look at the AL East in general, with the exception of the Devil Rays Every team in the AL East out spends the rest of the league especially the NL.  Its because they have to.  The Yankees have set the bar, and the Sox spend because they have to to be competitive.  I guarentte you, if the Yankees had a more reasonable payroll so would the Sox.  It just doesn't make sense to spend that much money if you don't have to to remain competitive.

Lets face it, things like what is happening with the Brewers only happens once every couple of years.  In the economics of baseball right now, when players get good they leave for the money.  It takes an incredible amount of luck and timing to have several key players together and young when they hit their stride.  Once these players become known and their first contract is up they are gone for where the money is more.  Just the way baseball without a salary cap works.

[BigSky]

The Red Sox do not thave to spend anywhere near what they spend to be competetive.  Those poor little Red Sox.  We should pass the hat for them.  Many teams of small and medium markets compete and make the playoffs.(The playoffs are short 7 and 5 game crapshoots depending on many factors.) and some on a regular basis(Oakland, St. Louis and others etc...)  They just work a bit smarter. 

The Red Sox are a big market, high revenue big spending team, where results are expected annually. 

Sure it always helps to have a lot of money to spend or even the most money to spend, but it doesn't guarantee success and certainly obviously doesn't guarantee more success than other less spending teams.  Built in advantage, sure out of the gate? yes.

The Red Sox do not have to spend in the quantities they do, to be competitive.  That is absurd.  The Cardinals win their division almost every year the past 10 years, won 100 games plus in each of the two years before winning last year's World Series.  Oakland is a regular 21st Century playoff participant, as is Minnesota.  And so on....

Those poor little Red Sox.  The Yankees also picked up Carl Pavano, and several other busts too.  Should the Red Sox do it too and say well the Yankees did it and we have to do everything the Yankees do? 

Who's in for $20?  Let's get that hat passed.  Don't know how I am going to sleep tonight worried about those little Red Sox.  I hope the organization can stay afloat and the players have enough to eat.  It's a miracle they can be competetive in today's game.  Nothing short of a miracle.   

[mu03eng]

You miss the point.  The teams you sight, like Oakland and Minnesota spend with 5% of the teams also in their division.  In baseball because their is only one wildcard berth to go around you focus on winning the division.  You also play the majority of your games within the division.  Unlike football where you could go 10-6 and lose all of your division games, baseball requires that you win a significant number of division games to compete.  Oakland doesn't have to spend a boat load of money because none of the teams in their division do.  Same goes with every other division in baseball but the AL East.

Fine if the Red Sox spent what the A's spend, then the Red Sox are going to be competing for the wild card only.  Thats fine, but you are now competing with 6 or 7 teams, not just 4.  Its a fact of life, the teams in the AL East have to keep up with the Yankees in spending to compete with them otherwise its the wildcard only.

And frankly, I'm not complaining that they spend that much.  They put a team on the field that wins.  However, if you saw the Yankees spending in the same ball park as other teams I am certain all of the other AL East teams would follow suit because there is no reason not to.  Lower payroll means higher profit.  As you pointed out the Red Sox are a high revenue team, thats not going to change based on the cost of payroll its going to change based on results.  If they could win with a $60 million payroll they would as the profit margin would go through the roof, but you can't when the Yankees can amass the kind of talent they do at almost $200 million in payroll.

[ecompt]

Big Sky:
You're missing the point. The Red Sox spend because they're in the same division as the Yankees. If they didn't, the Yankees would simply bury them. Who are the free-agent All-Stars the Red Sox simply went out and bought? The Yankees go out and buy two EVERY year. Giambi? BOUGHT. A-Rod was BOUGHT by trading Soriano, who was BOUGHT. Matsui? Damon? Mussina? Clemens? Abreu? Farnsworth? It's a joke. If the Red Sox were in any other division they wouldn't spend as much; they're only spending because they have to or they would be steamrolled. As for passing the hat, maybe they should do for the Yankees, who went five years without paying the city rent on the stadium, now are asking to city to fork over half-a-billion to help them build their ballpark. The Yanks will choke again in the first round of the playoffs (if they make it), then go out and add another $25 million to the payroll.

[BigSky]

Again...overpaying for players....some might call it the Darren Dreifort effect, or Chan Ho Park or Pavano or insert player here to illustrate the point....doesn't guarantee success.  For every Alfonso Soriano there are many other Gary Matthews Jr's out there.

There is also the wild card (unfortunately).  And the Red Sox spend more than the rest of the league not named the Yankees, so they actually get a second chance annually with a big spending advantage over the rest of the league.   Using your logic, the Red Sox can just mop up on Toronto, Tampa, Baltimore, and the rest of the American League and win division or coast into wild card, ...again, making my point.  With the huge spending discrepancies thatshouldn't be too tough.    But we all know just because a team doesn't win with a certain payroll doesn't mean the resons for not winning were 100% money, as you implied in your post.

Now the poor little Red Sox have to compete with a few more teams for the wild card.  Oh the humanity.  

It's a fact of life the Red Sox are a lot closer to the Yankees than any other team in either league.  

[BigSky]

Big Sky:
You're missing the point. The Red Sox spend because they're in the same division as the Yankees. If they didn't, the Yankees would simply bury them. Who are the free-agent All-Stars the Red Sox simply went out and bought? The Yankees go out and buy two EVERY year. Giambi? BOUGHT. A-Rod was BOUGHT by trading Soriano, who was BOUGHT. Matsui? Damon? Mussina? Clemens? Abreu? Farnsworth? It's a joke. If the Red Sox were in any other division they wouldn't spend as much; they're only spending because they have to or they would be steamrolled. As for passing the hat, maybe they should do for the Yankees, who went five years without paying the city rent on the stadium, now are asking to city to fork over half-a-billion to help them build their ballpark. The Yanks will choke again in the first round of the playoffs (if they make it), then go out and add another $25 million to the payroll.

The Red Sox have eithe roverpaid for Free Agents or re0signed people at overpaying prices.  Off of the top of my the past couple of years.....Matt Clement, David Wells, JD drew, Dice K, Julio Lugo, Jason Varitek, ...all over paid by a lot,....as is Ramirez, and several other players.   

Who do the Red Sox go out and buy?  lol.  You are kidding right?  Nothing wrong with it, well within the rules.  But at least admit it.   

[ecompt]

Based on that theory (overpaying for your own), the Yankees have done that with their entire roster. You can argue all you want, but the fact of the matter is that the Yankees will spend $80 million MORE than the Red Sox this season. How many teams even have $80 million payrolls? And again, name me the last high-priced major-league-veteran free agent the Red Sox signed. They only signed Ortiz after the Yankees told Papi's agent they weren't interested. The Yankees are the reason most people hate New Yorkers. Arrogant, rude, get out of my way, nothing's ever good enough...etc. Most New Yorkers aren't like that, but the Yankees' image as bullies is overwhelming. My favorite day of every baseball season is when some team with one-third of their payroll kicks their asses in the playoffs. Luckily, since 2001 it happens every year.

[BigSky]

Based on that theory (overpaying for your own), the Yankees have done that with their entire roster. You can argue all you want, but the fact of the matter is that the Yankees will spend $80 million MORE than the Red Sox this season. How many teams even have $80 million payrolls? And again, name me the last high-priced major-league-veteran free agent the Red Sox signed. They only signed Ortiz after the Yankees told Papi's agent they weren't interested. The Yankees are the reason most people hate New Yorkers. Arrogant, rude, get out of my way, nothing's ever good enough...etc. Most New Yorkers aren't like that, but the Yankees' image as bullies is overwhelming. My favorite day of every baseball season is when some team with one-third of their payroll kicks their asses in the playoffs. Luckily, since 2001 it happens every year.

This is about the Red Sox and the rest of the league, because the Red Sox are more similar to the Yankees than the rest of baseball.  Talk about the Yankees all you want, and the red Sox will be and should be in the same spending breath.  People who hate New Yorkers never lived there.  In my life expereinces extensively in NYC, Boston and Milwaukee, NYC had easily the the friendliest of the three cities that I lived in and spent considerable time in....  As many Boston natives will tell you, they think have the whiniest fans in all of baseball.  There are good and bad fans everywhere and good and bad people everywhere.  The NYC stereotype is laughable at best. 

The point remains that Boston is nowhere near the rest of baseball in spending.  Nowhere near.  It remains silly to root against the Yankees for only purposes of spending etc...and not do the same with Boston.  Silly.  And I already gave you a top of head list of many highly overpriced free agents signed by Boston within past couple of year.  Do I even need to add more than that?   

   

[ecompt]

I think the key words in your argument are "nowhere near." There are six teams within $37 million on the Red Sox in 2007 payrolls. The fifth and sixth of those teams, the Dodgers and Mariners, combined do not equal what the Yankees pay. And then there's 23 teams below them. There is no one within $68 million of the Yankees; in fact, other than the Red Sox, there is no one within $95 million of the Yanks.

[BigSky]

You can talk about the Yankees all day long, but to single them out as the only big spenders is not accurate.  You never compare the Red Sox to the rest of baseball.  You only compare them with the Yankees, ...which is what Red Sox fans do.  ...a little too much.  And then proceed to compare the Yankees with the rest of baseball, but not compare the Red Sox with the rest of baseball.