OT: if you needed any more reasons to hate the Yankees...

[BigSky]

I hate the Yankees because they deprive the small-market teams of any competitive chance. They buy and buy and buy and don't care who they roll over in doing it. They only get away with it because the players' union will not allow the salary cap that has saved the other sports. Brewer fans don't hate the Yankees just yet because the Yanks haven't invaded their roster yet. Just wait until the Brewers win something; then Steinbrenner will swoop in and Hall, Sheets, Capuano, Cordero, Fielder will all be gone,. You'll see.

You assumed I didn't know how the system works, and that I was a Brwer fan.  I merely asked why the poster hated the Yankees.

[BigSky]

I hate the Yankees because they deprive the small-market teams of any competitive chance. They buy and buy and buy and don't care who they roll over in doing it. They only get away with it because the players' union will not allow the salary cap that has saved the other sports. Brewer fans don't hate the Yankees just yet because the Yanks haven't invaded their roster yet. Just wait until the Brewers win something; then Steinbrenner will swoop in and Hall, Sheets, Capuano, Cordero, Fielder will all be gone,. You'll see.

You assumed I didn't know how the system works, and that I was a Brewer fan.  I merely asked why you hated the Yankees.

[BigSky]

I hate the Yankees because they deprive the small-market teams of any competitive chance. They buy and buy and buy and don't care who they roll over in doing it. They only get away with it because the players' union will not allow the salary cap that has saved the other sports. Brewer fans don't hate the Yankees just yet because the Yanks haven't invaded their roster yet. Just wait until the Brewers win something; then Steinbrenner will swoop in and Hall, Sheets, Capuano, Cordero, Fielder will all be gone,. You'll see.

The Yankees aren't the only team to do this...the Red Sox have been doing it a long time too.  The Cubs are doing it.  The Yankees have just won more than those teams who do the same thing....not in as high of numbers as the Yankees, but in high numbers, high enough to make a huge difference.

[ecompt]

In all fairness, I don't think you can mention the Yankees and Cubs in the same breath. In fact, it's a stretch to link the Yankees with anyone. They will spend $75 million more than the second-place team (Boston) and more than $100 million more than all but three or four teams. And the new ballpark won't help that much financially since it will seat thousands less than the current Stadium, which is 95 percent full for the season. I know people argue it's good for baseball, but I don't see it. How do you explain to a kid in Kansas City or Pittsburgh that his team has NO chance of ever being competitive in consecutive seasons in his lifetime? Five years from now the Yanks' rotation will be Sheets, Zambrano, Santana, Liriano and Willis, with Capuano in long relief and Papelbon in the bullpen.

[BigSky]

In all fairness, I don't think you can mention the Yankees and Cubs in the same breath. In fact, it's a stretch to link the Yankees with anyone. They will spend $75 million more than the second-place team (Boston) and more than $100 million more than all but three or four teams. And the new ballpark won't help that much financially since it will seat thousands less than the current Stadium, which is 95 percent full for the season. I know people argue it's good for baseball, but I don't see it. How do you explain to a kid in Kansas City or Pittsburgh that his team has NO chance of ever being competitive in consecutive seasons in his lifetime? Five years from now the Yanks' rotation will be Sheets, Zambrano, Santana, Liriano and Willis, with Capuano in long relief and Papelbon in the bullpen.

I think it is very fair to put Cubs, Red Sox etc...in that breath.  You should be comparing each individual big spender with the small guys.  The Yankees may do it way more than anyone else...but let's not kid ourselves about the spending of the Red Sox, Cubs, etc....

When the Red Sox won the World Series, they were treated in the meida and elsewhere as this little engine that could blue collar team....when in fact their payroll was more than $135 million or so.(huge disparity with the rest of baseball except the Yankees)  I suppose with atht kind of spending I'm surprised there weren't more bake sales to raise money for the team. 

[ecompt]

Understand totally, but...
In 2004, the Red Sox' payroll was $57 million less than the Yankees', so the image of David and Goliath wasn't totally wrong. That same year the Yankees more than doubled the Cubs' payroll. You really can't compare what they spend to anyone else because everyone else had a budget.

[BigSky]

Understand totally, but...
In 2004, the Red Sox' payroll was $57 million less than the Yankees', so the image of David and Goliath wasn't totally wrong. That same year the Yankees more than doubled the Cubs' payroll. You really can't compare what they spend to anyone else because everyone else had a budget.

What was the Red Sox payroll compared to the rest of baseball in 2004 minus the Yankees?  The question is rhetorical.  The Red Sox were Goliath and the rest of the league except the Yankees were David.  It is absurd to sweep teams like the Red Sox under the rug...just using them as one example.

To say it is Yankees vs rest of baseball is incomplete.  Boston has been nowhere near the rest of the league either.  They just don't win as much. 

[ecompt]

I'm not trying to sweep the Red Sox under the rug and I'm not defending what they've done. What I'm saying is that baseball's system is a joke. If the NFL did not have a salary cap, the Washington Redskins would have won the last 10 Super Bowls. Daniel Snyder woukld have an All-Pro at every position and a $3 billion payroll. Hockey and basketball finally wised up. Baseball never will. The Yankees are one of the big reasons people hate New Yorkers.

[muarmy81]

I'm not trying to sweep the Red Sox under the rug and I'm not defending what they've done. What I'm saying is that baseball's system is a joke. If the NFL did not have a salary cap, the Washington Redskins would have won the last 10 Super Bowls. Daniel Snyder woukld have an All-Pro at every position and a $3 billion payroll. Hockey and basketball finally wised up. Baseball never will. The Yankees are one of the big reasons people hate New Yorkers.

Which is why the Yankees have won the last 6 World Series...  What was Detroit's payroll last year?  Oakland does well every year and they have one of the lowest payrolls in baseball.  Star power is great and it costs a pretty penny but it doesn't equate to championships, even in baseball.

[NateDoggMarq]

You said that people become Yankee fans with no attachment to the team?  That happens to a lot of teams and if you ask me I think the Red Sox have much more of those fans.

The Red Sox are a cute story every freaking year because of that whole curse thing that yall believed in.  And just like the cubs cute stories leads to a big fan base who aint from New England, and who have no connection to the team.

The Yankees are my third favorite team behind the White Sox and Brewers and  I have no assocation with New York.  In fact I think I became a fan because I was sick of hearing how "They just spend money to win"  while for some reason people thought the Red Sox where just using home grown talent or something.

Speaking of Home Grown talent, some of the best Yankees during their championship run where homegrown talent

Jeter/Posada/Williams

[NateDoggMarq]

Understand totally, but...
In 2004, the Red Sox' payroll was $57 million less than the Yankees', so the image of David and Goliath wasn't totally wrong. That same year the Yankees more than doubled the Cubs' payroll. You really can't compare what they spend to anyone else because everyone else had a budget.

What was the Red Sox payroll compared to the rest of baseball in 2004 minus the Yankees?  The question is rhetorical.  The Red Sox were Goliath and the rest of the league except the Yankees were David.  It is absurd to sweep teams like the Red Sox under the rug...just using them as one example.

To say it is Yankees vs rest of baseball is incomplete.  Boston has been nowhere near the rest of the league either.  They just don't win as much. 

Boston was made out to be this little engine that could from Blue Collar Boston while The Yanks where this big trump esque corporation that had no soul.

Thats funny didn The Red Sox have less home grown talent on that team than the Yankees did?  Yea they did

[ecompt]

MUarmy: My point is that Detroit had its one surprising year, but can't compete over the long haul because Verlander, Bonderman and Zumaya will all be Yankees in a few years IF the Yankees want them. How you anyone think  baseball is fair when Oakland produced Mulder, Hudson, Zito, Giambi and Tejada over the course of six years and lost them all? Have the Yankees EVER lost a player they wanted to keep? Hell, even when the Red Sox traded for A-Rod the players' union stepped in and said, "Nope. A-Rod has to be a Yankee." The reason they don't win now is they collect mercenaries with huge egos. There's no Paul O'Neill or Scott Brosius, the everyday guys who are the hearts and souls of a great team. George has decided there's no room for those kind of guys because they're not big enough names.
As for the Jeter/Posada/Bernie/Mo home-grown talent argument, please. That's four players. They bought the other 21.  

[ecompt]

Nate Dogg: Name me the high-priced free agents the Red Sox had in 2004. They spent $57 million LESS than the Yankees. They signed Ortiz only because the Yankees didn't want him. The Red Sox had as many core players and many less free agents than the Yankees. Where did Varitek come from? Derek Lowe? Trot Nixon? Bronson Arroyo? Timlin and Wakefield were journeymen, not high-priced free agents. While the Red Sox signed Doug Mientiewicz, the Yankees signed Giambi, a former MVP. The Red Sox dealt for Mike Lowell, the Yamnkees sign A-Rod. Boston trades for Schilling, the Yankees give Carl Pavano $40 million. Boston won its title with guys like Kevin Millar and Bill Mueller, guys the Yankees would sneer at. You can argue the Red Sox overspend, and they do (the Dice-K signing is a colossal waste of money), but you can't compare the Yankees to any other team in ths history of sports in terms of wanting to put every other team in the sport out of business.

[NYWarrior]

You can argue the Red Sox overspend, and they do (the Dice-K signing is a colossal waste of money), but you can't compare the Yankees to any other team in ths history of sports in terms of wanting to put every other team in the sport out of business.

If u think that is bad (debatable, I think given the dearth of pitching), imagine this...between Kei Igawa and Clemen$, the Yanks have spent $50M for one spot in their starting rotation for this season alone

[muarmy81]

MUarmy: My point is that Detroit had its one surprising year, but can't compete over the long haul because Verlander, Bonderman and Zumaya will all be Yankees in a few years IF the Yankees want them. How you anyone think  baseball is fair when Oakland produced Mulder, Hudson, Zito, Giambi and Tejada over the course of six years and lost them all? Have the Yankees EVER lost a player they wanted to keep? Hell, even when the Red Sox traded for A-Rod the players' union stepped in and said, "Nope. A-Rod has to be a Yankee." The reason they don't win now is they collect mercenaries with huge egos. There's no Paul O'Neill or Scott Brosius, the everyday guys who are the hearts and souls of a great team. George has decided there's no room for those kind of guys because they're not big enough names.
As for the Jeter/Posada/Bernie/Mo home-grown talent argument, please. That's four players. They bought the other 21.  

Point taken, I'm just saying that some teams win by developing young talent and utilizing good coaching.  See:  Twins, Oakland, Braves, Indians, Brewers...so if you have a deep farm system and you can evaluate talent better than the overpaid yankees who cares if they steal your players away, chances are you've got guys lined up in AA or AAA to fill in for them. (As for surprise year for the Tigers I think they're doing pretty well this year, like 1/2 game out of first in the AL central, and the twins and oakland have consistently done well over the years)

[ecompt]

True, MUarmy, the problem is that your farm system can be really deep but when you lose your best players it can take years to replace them. The A's, Twins and Tigers have done a great job stockpiling minor-league talent, but when Harden, Santana and Verlander leave, it's hard to replace them when you can't sign free agents. I know the Yankees are only playing the game that's on the table; I just the rules are skewed.

[mu03eng]

You said that people become Yankee fans with no attachment to the team?  That happens to a lot of teams and if you ask me I think the Red Sox have much more of those fans.

The Red Sox are a cute story every freaking year because of that whole curse thing that yall believed in.  And just like the cubs cute stories leads to a big fan base who aint from New England, and who have no connection to the team.

The Yankees are my third favorite team behind the White Sox and Brewers and  I have no assocation with New York.  In fact I think I became a fan because I was sick of hearing how "They just spend money to win"  while for some reason people thought the Red Sox where just using home grown talent or something.

Speaking of Home Grown talent, some of the best Yankees during their championship run where homegrown talent

Jeter/Posada/Williams

Ask any real Red Sox fan and they would never EVER acknowledge that any curse exsisted.  It was a stupid media story that had no meaning for us.  Just shows you how little you know about the fan base.  I will freely admit that there are bandwagon fans, no different than the Yankees.  The difference is largely the amount and the arrogance that is involved.

Neither team truly uses homegrown talent.  Pedro, Varitek, Lowe were all traded for.  Yankees, especially lately have been all about spending money.  When the Yanks were at their peak they were spending money but they were all so getting chemistry guys.  Now they are just spending wildly no matter what, prime example being the antichrist, Clemens.  The Red Sox are spending more than most teams but they are also not buying every possible free agent out there.  They are still getting those chemistry guys much  like how the yankees use to do it.

For the record New York has out spent the Red Sox every year since George took over, and by default more than anyone else.....how can you deny the "just spend money to win" scenario?

[NYWarrior]

one more reason to hate the yankees.......Ma Pinstripe, Suzyn Waldman

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4uwwMXqRyEc

[ecompt]

Yankee fans who don't know her would turn against the team in a heartbeat if they were forced to listen to her on a daily basis. Despicable butt-kisser who would defend bin Laden if the Yankees signed him.

[tonyreeder]

I admit baseball's system is a little out of whack but I also think the quality of football in the NFL has suffered because of the system. Yes, it's  more popular than ever and is the #1 sport by a long shot and you can go from worst to first in a hurry.     However, when half the league is between 7-9 and 9-7 and you have mediocre teams like the Steelers win it two years ago or the Ravens or the Buccaneers I just think the quality of the football has suffered.  Contant movement of players from year to year--I liked the days of the Cowboys vs 49ers every year with great players on both sides of the ball.  Then the Packers gradually got better and overtook them.     Yes, the Patriots have continued to thrive but I still think the best Patriots would have gotten killed by any of those Cowboy or 49er teams.

[muarmy81]

But that's whats so great about football.  No longer are you destined to watch your team suck year after year because there's a dynasty in the league, rather you can hope for improvement and possibly vast improvement due to the salary cap and setup the NFL utilizes.  This piqued interest in poor teams possibly putting it together the next year or year after keeps fans coming back whereas other teams in other leagues may loose interest after continuous failure...see KC Royals.

[NateDoggMarq]

You said that people become Yankee fans with no attachment to the team?  That happens to a lot of teams and if you ask me I think the Red Sox have much more of those fans.

The Red Sox are a cute story every freaking year because of that whole curse thing that yall believed in.  And just like the cubs cute stories leads to a big fan base who aint from New England, and who have no connection to the team.

The Yankees are my third favorite team behind the White Sox and Brewers and  I have no assocation with New York.  In fact I think I became a fan because I was sick of hearing how "They just spend money to win"  while for some reason people thought the Red Sox where just using home grown talent or something.

Speaking of Home Grown talent, some of the best Yankees during their championship run where homegrown talent

Jeter/Posada/Williams

Ask any real Red Sox fan and they would never EVER acknowledge that any curse exsisted.  It was a stupid media story that had no meaning for us.  Just shows you how little you know about the fan base.  I will freely admit that there are bandwagon fans, no different than the Yankees.  The difference is largely the amount and the arrogance that is involved.

Neither team truly uses homegrown talent.  Pedro, Varitek, Lowe were all traded for.  Yankees, especially lately have been all about spending money.  When the Yanks were at their peak they were spending money but they were all so getting chemistry guys.  Now they are just spending wildly no matter what, prime example being the antichrist, Clemens.  The Red Sox are spending more than most teams but they are also not buying every possible free agent out there.  They are still getting those chemistry guys much  like how the yankees use to do it.

For the record New York has out spent the Red Sox every year since George took over, and by default more than anyone else.....how can you deny the "just spend money to win" scenario?

Tells me everything I need to know about Red Sox fans.

I also love how the team blamed Buckner for losing the World Series in 1986
that is up their with Cubs Fan blaming Bartman
and guess what Hardcore cubs fans that I know still do blame Bartman!!! and Hardcore Red Sox fans I Know still blame Buckner

I just dont understand the two fan bases. 
I can gurantee you that have the fan base will leave once Fenway and Wrigley are torn down like they should.

[BigSky]

I'm not trying to sweep the Red Sox under the rug and I'm not defending what they've done. What I'm saying is that baseball's system is a joke. If the NFL did not have a salary cap, the Washington Redskins would have won the last 10 Super Bowls. Daniel Snyder woukld have an All-Pro at every position and a $3 billion payroll. Hockey and basketball finally wised up. Baseball never will. The Yankees are one of the big reasons people hate New Yorkers.

Boston's payroll was $25 million more than the next xlosest team in either league in 2004.  And since the gap has only gotten wider. 

At least be equal opportunity if in fact that is the point here.  But I didn't see you mention the Red Sox as an example as well. 

The Red Sox have been trying to buy titles, period.  They outspend and overspend, and hope to do so making good choices, or good enough choices to win, period. 

As long as we can all agree on that, I'd move on to another point on the topic or to another topic altogether. 

[spartan3186]

I also love how the team blamed Buckner for losing the World Series in 1986
that is up their with Cubs Fan blaming Bartman
and guess what Hardcore cubs fans that I know still do blame Bartman!!! and Hardcore Red Sox fans I Know still blame Buckner

I just dont understand the two fan bases. 
I can gurantee you that have the fan base will leave once Fenway and Wrigley are torn down like they should.

First of all no truely hardcore Cubs fan is going to blame Bartman. If anybodies fault it was Alex Gonzalez with his freaking error but thats besides the point. The Cubs still had 2 more games to get it done and did not take care of buisness. Secondly... are you kidding???? tear down Wrigley AND Fenway, that is fricking stupid... why would you tear down the two last old time stadiums (once Yankee Stadium is gone). These stadiums represent everything that is good and pure in baseball. Baseball is a game of longstanding tradition, tradition dating back to the late 1800's. Have you been to Wrigley or Fenway? It is an unreal feeling walking into either of those stadiums, just as it is walking into Yankee Stadium. Sure the amenitites at the new stadiums are nice but I would not trade the feeling of being at Wrigley, Fenway or Yankee stadium for all the new amenities in the world. Baseball was meant to be played outdoors at stadiums like Wrigley and Fenway.

[NateDoggMarq]

Fenway has to be the worst.  Their is nothing more fun than tiny concourses, looking having to turn your head 45 degrees to see a pitch, and leg room that even me at 5'3 feel claustrophobic.

Wrigley is a lot better than fenway, but if you dont have a good seat you have to watch the games on a television monitor, plus you can always be stuck behind a poll.

I am all for tradition and what not as i hate the DH, but keep the game traditional dont keep a stadium for the only reason of it being old!