Start the Number Controversy Again, Thompson Mad, Hayward To Wear 32

[mu03eng]

Nightmare, I think the blame is even.  MU for not telling GT and GT for going to the press.  I do wonder how such a big oversight could happen.

Now, the big thing that MU has to do is assuage GT, because I think he is a good recruiting tool and ambassador for the university.  On George's part I think he needs his questions answered and then move on, forgive and forget.

[mu_hilltopper]

Moses smell the roses .. the story was picked up by AP:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/cs-061116marquette,1,3727737.story?coll=cs-college-headlines

Nice going.

[ChicosBailBonds]

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[MUEng92]

Dang Chicos, you stole my thunder.

When I read this article in the paper, I kept thinking, why is GT making such a big deal about this.  Then it occurred to me.  I would guess this is more about him no longer doing broadcasts than uniform numbers.

I don't remember all of the details regarding his departure from the broadcasts (and if he left on his own, I have to take this all back), but I thought it was MU telling him thanks but no thanks when it came to contract renewal time.

I am not saying he is wrong to be upset about the number (well, maybe I am), but overall, I think he looks just as bad as MU in this article.

Just my opinion.

[IAmMarquette]

Give me a break... this is newsworthy?

[tomahawkchop]

C'mon, Chicos...don't be a shill for MU.  This isn't the first time they've alienated/insulted alumni (this time a very important alum).  

And this isn't the first time they've botched PR.

In some ways, MU is a VERY screwed up institution.

And, yes, this is about more than just this one "mistake."

[rocky_warrior]

And, yes, this is about more than just this one "mistake."

Care to elaborate?

[ChicosBailBonds]

C'mon, Chicos...don't be a shill for MU.  This isn't the first time they've alienated/insulted alumni (this time a very important alum).  

And this isn't the first time they've botched PR.

In some ways, MU is a VERY screwed up institution.

And, yes, this is about more than just this one "mistake."

I'm not being a schill for the university.  I said MU made a mistake, George made a bigger one.  He's very press savvy with his position and for him to do this I find truly amazing.  Call Crean, call Cords and ask what is going on.  Don't run to the press and whine to them knowing full well they will make a big deal out of it.

I find that deploreable. 

All institutions are screwed up in some way...name ONE that isn't.  The government, non-profits, corporations, etc....they are run by human beings and will have problems.  I am still steamed about the nickname and will never let that go, but this one is a joke.

Marquette retires jerseys just as Duke, North Carolina and many others schools do.  There are I think 36 usable numbers in college basketball that I am aware of which is why you retire jerseys and not numbers.  In college hoops the number has to start with a 5 or less and any combination cannot have more than a 5 in it (  i.e. 5, 15, 51 all ok....61 not ok, 7 not ok, 18 not ok)

MU should clarify it's policy in the media guide and on it's website and should do so soon.  There is a practical answer as to why numbers are not retired and jerseys are.  It is also why so many major programs with rich traditions retire jerseys and not numbers.

George looks like a whiner and this could have been handled in a much better way. 

[77fan88warrior]

PR Nightmare mentioned there was  discussion on this a few months back. Was LH listed as having 24? I remember that MU used same reasoning on jersey vs. number in that discussion. I can only assume there was discussion involving the number. There must be a reason Thompson hasn't been following and i can only assume he was pushed away from microphone. There is a reason the Dallas Cowboys have their ring of honor or whatever it is called. I can only hope that they clear this issue up for now and the future.Otherwise, we will be renaming the Al McGuire center such and court for money.

[spiral97]

Maybe GT WAS following along and knew when it was announced that LH would be using 24.. maybe he wanted to let a few games go first to maximize the "apparant damage" such a slight causes so he would look more justified when he raised his voice.

Reasons for doing so?  It could be as simple as looking for media attention.  Standard PR type strategy.  North Korea and Iran play these same tactics.. watch what happens when we ignore them for long enough.. they invent some issue to stir things up.

[tomahawkchop]

PR Nightmare mentioned there was  discussion on this a few months back. Was LH listed as having 24? I remember that MU used same reasoning on jersey vs. number in that discussion. I can only assume there was discussion involving the number. There must be a reason Thompson hasn't been following and i can only assume he was pushed away from microphone. There is a reason the Dallas Cowboys have their ring of honor or whatever it is called. I can only hope that they clear this issue up for now and the future.Otherwise, we will be renaming the Al McGuire center such and court for money.

Yes, George was pushed away from the broadcast table and he has had other issues with Cords (and the university in general).  This was just the final straw, imo.

[bartmiller#1]

I've posted at length on this on the Scout board, so I won't rehash the whole thing-- but there are a few things I think might add to the debate:

1.  GT is one of the most revered and significant players in MU's history.  Whether it's his number or jersey that's retured, he is the first player who has received such an honor to have suffered the indignity of having his number worn AFTER it has been retired. 

Add to that the fact that MU didn't tell him this was happening-- and possibly some pre-existing bad blood between the principals-- and you have one very pissed off, high visibility alum and former player.  Could he have handled it better?  Yes.  But I have a hard time putting too much blame on him.  This honor, along with being inducted into a HOF, is the biggest honor that can be bestowed upon an athlete-- and it has to sting George quite a bit that he found out about it this way-- and that no one in Athletic Dep't called him until after he talked to the MJS. 

2.  I have a hard time swallowing the argument that GT should have called MU before he talked to the paper.  How do we know WOlfey didn't call him?  Why should he have to call-- what's he going to say, "hey Bill, you know how my number is supposed to be retired?  I heard from a friend you've got a kid wearing it this year.  Can you stop doing that?" 

The guy is already stung-- it would hurt your pride to have to pick up the phone when you're the guy who has been screwed.  Again, not saying he should have handled it how he did-- but I think his ire is understandable. 

3.   Whether Crean knew or not, he should have known, and this shouldn't have happened on his watch. 

4.   Moving forward-- I think we really need to slow down on retiring numbers.  Novak and Diener are frequently mentioned as guys who should get their numbers retired, but I don't think they should.  It should be reserved for only the most transcendent players from MU.  Wade-- yes.  Although I wish they'd wait for him to graduate.  But if you give it to a guy like Novak-- who was fantastic last year and a very important player for the program-- it opens the door too wide (IMO). 

5.   Generational issues: 

My Dad went to MU and knows George Thompson.  He is outraged about this-- absolutely pissed off.  I called him to tell him about it (he's in SF on business today) and he seriously couldn't believe it.  I can't write what he said, but he's fired up. 

Not a good PR move for MU.  The old-timers continue to shake their heads at the school for one reason or another. 

6.  Last point (if you're still reading, I'm flattered):

I don't think it's fair to expect that GT would have known this before someone told him.  First off-- many box scores (most?) don't include player numbers.  Second-- just because George played for us and was involved in the broadcast for so long-- we shouldn't assume the guy has an intimate familiarity with the team-- especially if he's been pushed away from the program. 

He might know who Hayward is-- but why would he take the time to figure out the players' numbers? 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Bart...all fair comments.

I would say that if the MJS called him first, then George being the PR person that he is should have told Bob that he didn't know anything about it and would need to talk to the Athletic Department.  George then picks up the phone and calls to straighten it out.  If George called the MJS, then that changes my opinion even more....hopefully he did not do that.

It's a shame it happened, I'm sure George is pissed and I think he has every reason to be from his point of view.  I don't think it was malicious in any way or intentional but it happened.  Now, if it was intentional then that is an entirely different matter but I have yet to see anything that would suggest that is the case.

Crean strikes me as someone that has made many efforts to reach out to the history of Marquette basketball and the retirement of well deserved jerseys of Tatum, Lucas and others I have no problem with.  These were great players and great programs have many numbers retired for that very reason.  Diener should be retired, if he wasn't hurt he would have ironically replaced Mr. Thompson as the all-time leading scorer in MU history.

The apology has been made, the number has been switched....can George move on and accept the apology or is he going to stew for awhile?  It seems to me by some of his comments that this goes a little deeper than this.  George no longer calls games at MU on the radio, he hasn't attended a single game this year, etc,

I hope for the sake of the MU family this one is done and buried.

[mu_hilltopper]

2.  I have a hard time swallowing the argument that GT should have called MU before he talked to the paper.  How do we know WOlfey didn't call him?  Why should he have to call-- what's he going to say, "hey Bill, you know how my number is supposed to be retired?  I heard from a friend you've got a kid wearing it this year.  Can you stop doing that?" 

Couple items about that .. I had thought about Wolfley calling him .. but remember, George didn't just fall off the turnip truck.  He was VP of Public Relations of a Fortune 1000 company.  He knows how to handle unwanted media attention.  -- But the story in the JS rules that out anyhow .. a friend ribbed him on Monday, his conversation with Wolfley was later.

[mu_hilltopper]

Just to add another tid-bit.  Took out the most recent Media guide .. 2005-06. 

In the table of contents:  "Retired Numbers ..... 149"

Here is a scan of Page 149.

[tomahawkchop]

The apology has been made, the number has been switched....can George move on and accept the apology or is he going to stew for awhile?  It seems to me by some of his comments that this goes a little deeper than this.  George no longer calls games at MU on the radio, he hasn't attended a single game this year, etc,

I hope for the sake of the MU family this one is done and buried.

From what I was told, that "apology" from Cords was half-hearted, at best.  IMO, if Thompson had felt that MU was truly being sincere, this woudn't have ended up the big story it is now.

I guess MU got away with screwing the alumni with the dumping of the Warrior name, the Golden Eagles/Lightning choice and the "Gold" insult, but they shouldn't have messed with George Thompson.  He's a no-nonsense, no BS kind of guy (with a high BS detector).

[ChicosBailBonds]

The apology has been made, the number has been switched....can George move on and accept the apology or is he going to stew for awhile?  It seems to me by some of his comments that this goes a little deeper than this.  George no longer calls games at MU on the radio, he hasn't attended a single game this year, etc,

I hope for the sake of the MU family this one is done and buried.

From what I was told, that "apology" from Cords was half-hearted, at best.  IMO, if Thompson had felt that MU was truly being sincere, this woudn't have ended up the big story it is now.

I guess MU got away with screwing the alumni with the dumping of the Warrior name, the Golden Eagles/Lightning choice and the "Gold" insult, but they shouldn't have messed with George Thompson.  He's a no-nonsense, no BS kind of guy (with a high BS detector).

Care to elaborate a bit on this?  How as it half-hearted?  Or was that how George took it?  Seems to me if it was half-hearted MU would simply read the Media Guide definition where it says jersey was retired and would not make Lazar change the number.  Instead, Lazar is changing the number and Cords did apologize. 

Do you believe Cords was behind the Gold and/or decision to drop Warriors?  Just curious.

[mu_hilltopper]

Seems to me if it was half-hearted MU would simply read the Media Guide definition where it says jersey was retired and would not make Lazar change the number.  Instead, Lazar is changing the number and Cords did apologize. 

Funny how words can be interpreted differently.  The Media Guide I posted above, in the index says "Retired Numbers" .. the top of the page says "Marquette Retired Numbers" .. the text inside opens the possibility of interpretation, when it says MU honors the best by "retiring their jersey numbers".

Personally, I read that as numbers.  If you close your right eye, it looks like they retire jerseys, though.   

[spiral97]

the top of the page says "Marquette Retired Numbers" ..

AHHA!  So the loophole is to simply change the name of the university!! Here we come Wisconsin State!  Or University of Milwaukee!  Or Pierre College!  Lots of possibilities.. just don't count on it being the popular choice!

[DoubleMU0609]

I'm pretty sure mu_hilltopper was referencing the "jersy numbers" part

.. the text inside opens the possibility of interpretation, when it says MU honors the best by "retiring their jersey numbers".

[tomahawkchop]

The apology has been made, the number has been switched....can George move on and accept the apology or is he going to stew for awhile?  It seems to me by some of his comments that this goes a little deeper than this.  George no longer calls games at MU on the radio, he hasn't attended a single game this year, etc,

I hope for the sake of the MU family this one is done and buried.

From what I was told, that "apology" from Cords was half-hearted, at best.  IMO, if Thompson had felt that MU was truly being sincere, this woudn't have ended up the big story it is now.

I guess MU got away with screwing the alumni with the dumping of the Warrior name, the Golden Eagles/Lightning choice and the "Gold" insult, but they shouldn't have messed with George Thompson.  He's a no-nonsense, no BS kind of guy (with a high BS detector).

Care to elaborate a bit on this?  How as it half-hearted?  Or was that how George took it?  Seems to me if it was half-hearted MU would simply read the Media Guide definition where it says jersey was retired and would not make Lazar change the number.  Instead, Lazar is changing the number and Cords did apologize. 

Do you believe Cords was behind the Gold and/or decision to drop Warriors?  Just curious.

I had some dealings with Cords around the time of the first nickname change.  He wasn't behind the change, but he was a first class wuss and made no serious attempt to lobby for keeping Warriors.  And there were times his input COULD have made a difference.

And somebody on another thread he would just shred the letter he got on the Thompson issue.  That is EXACTLY the kind of person he is and is what he will do.  Cords has a very negative view of MU alumni and their opinions mean squat to him.  He looks at us as a nuisance and nothing more (and he's far from the only one at MU with that view).

BTW, the half-hearted apology I'm talking about was the phone call, not the public statment.  This was definitely perceived as an intentional slight and from what I've heard, I tend to think there's some truth to the charge.  And, if true, Thompson had every right to fire back.

[Skarrface]

 

  I wonder how Cords and Crean would have handled it if
  Hayward would of wanted to wear #3? I think that number
  is available.

[bma725]

I had some dealings with Cords around the time of the first nickname change.  He wasn't behind the change, but he was a first class wuss and made no serious attempt to lobby for keeping Warriors.  And there were times his input COULD have made a difference.

Absolutely 100% incorrect.  There was nothing Cords, or anyone else could have done about the name change.  It was a DiUlio decision with minor Jesuit input.  Cords could have argued against it til he was blue in the face, he could have gone public with everything he knew and it wouldn't have mattered a bit.  There was no one tied with MU athletics at all that could have stopped it because it wasn't an athletics decision.

[mu0804]

The allowed numbers are single and double digits between 0 and 5 (i.e. 0, 00, 1-5, 10-15, 20-25, 30-35, 40-45, and 50-55 - this is so that the refs can use hand signals between them and the official scorer).  So yes, 32 numbers.

technically that 37, not 32

[ilovefreeway]

"This was definitely perceived as an intentional slight and from what I've heard"

So, if this is correct, the University just used a 19 year old kid, half a continent away from home, who just got done going through a difficult time with the NCAA to personally slight our all time leading scorer, yet make the kid change as soon as the problem is brought to their attention.  Me thinkith not.