29 years ago today...

[Benny B]

I'd love to meet whoever came up with the Willie Wampum caricature, so I can put a name/face on the person(s) who single-handedly killed any chance of the Warrior nickname from ever returning.

Frankly, the alums from the late 50s, 60s and 70s have nothing to complain about.  The only one from that era who did anything meaningful was Denning... and yet, his First Warrior was so well received that it set in motion the fortuitous, back-alley rendezvous of Cookie Monster and Sloth from Goonies which gave life to the drunken personification of regret - Bleuteaux.  With all due respect to Chick, it had to be a perfect storm to let that one to play out, otherwise, she'd just be another mortal alum on Scoop.  Yet her legacy is forever carved in the annals of Marquette mascotology because MU students and alums at the time couldn't even bear a respectful image of a Native American.

Who really got screwed were the late 80s and early 90s alums who had to live through the change and the mid 90s-present day alums who have become the involuntary beneficiaries of a hard-line division created a generation before them.  When asked by older alums if I was a Warrior or Golden Eagle, I respond "always a Warrior," even though deep down I know that essentially, I'm being asked if I should be considered a second-class alum.  The fact that there are alumni today who are still withholding donations/contributions to the University because they're miffed about the name is ludicrous.  But stupid is as stupid does, and as dumb as it was that MU even had to play the hand that would ultimately lead to a mascot change, it's even dumber that the sweater vests continue to complain about the cards they themselves dealt.

It's disheartening that we continue to deal with the whole Warrior-Golden Eagle debate.  While not a Warrior "by birth," Warrior is in my blood, but that's where it has to stay, unfortunately... a life force, hidden from sight, which acts as a constant reminder that there's nothing you can do to change the misdeeds of your predecessors.

[GGGG]

I'd love to meet whoever came up with the Willie Wampum caricature, so I can put a name/face on the person(s) who single-handedly killed any chance of the Warrior nickname from ever returning.

And the bros who come to games in "headresses" now only serve to reinforce in the eyes of many the decision that was made 22 years ago.

But even if they made the decision back when willie was retired to drop the native imagery for something else, Marquette would be Warriors today.  Trying to make the imagery "respectable" lead to the names demise.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'd love to meet whoever came up with the Willie Wampum caricature, so I can put a name/face on the person(s) who single-handedly killed any chance of the Warrior nickname from ever returning.

Frankly, the alums from the late 50s, 60s and 70s have nothing to complain about.  The only one from that era who did anything meaningful was Denning... and yet, his First Warrior was so well received that it set in motion the fortuitous, back-alley rendezvous of Cookie Monster and Sloth from Goonies which gave life to the drunken personification of regret - Bleuteaux.  With all due respect to Chick, it had to be a perfect storm to let that one to play out, otherwise, she'd just be another mortal alum on Scoop.  Yet her legacy is forever carved in the annals of Marquette mascotology because MU students and alums at the time couldn't even bear a respectful image of a Native American.

Who really got screwed were the late 80s and early 90s alums who had to live through the change and the mid 90s-present day alums who have become the involuntary beneficiaries of a hard-line division created a generation before them.  When asked by older alums if I was a Warrior or Golden Eagle, I respond "always a Warrior," even though deep down I know that essentially, I'm being asked if I should be considered a second-class alum.  The fact that there are alumni today who are still withholding donations/contributions to the University because they're miffed about the name is ludicrous.  But stupid is as stupid does, and as dumb as it was that MU even had to play the hand that would ultimately lead to a mascot change, it's even dumber that the sweater vests continue to complain about the cards they themselves dealt.

It's disheartening that we continue to deal with the whole Warrior-Golden Eagle debate.  While not a Warrior "by birth," Warrior is in my blood, but that's where it has to stay, unfortunately... a life force, hidden from sight, which acts as a constant reminder that there's nothing you can do to change the misdeeds of your predecessors.

+1000

It doesn't say who, but this article says it was a Marquette cheerleader and his sister who created Willie Wampum.

http://marquettewire.org/3849912/journal/latest-issue/college-life/mascot-madness/

Anyone know the male cheerleaders from back in the 50s?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And the bros who come to games in "headresses" now only serve to reinforce in the eyes of many the decision that was made 22 years ago.

I cringe everytime I see that headdress. Who knows, maybe if people stopped showing up in their old Warrior apparel (or using it as their profile pics on mu forums....) maybe they would let Warriors back onto the table.

[ChicosBailBonds]

And the bros who come to games in "headresses" now only serve to reinforce in the eyes of many the decision that was made 22 years ago.

But even if they made the decision back when willie was retired to drop the native imagery for something else, Marquette would be Warriors today.  Trying to make the imagery "respectable" lead to the names demise.

Which is why Blackhawks should be banned because of the bros that wear head dresses at games....


Please. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I cringe everytime I see that headdress. Who knows, maybe if people stopped showing up in their old Warrior apparel (or using it as their profile pics on mu forums....) maybe they would let Warriors back onto the table.

Can I show up in my warrior apparel with a Knight on it?







Or would a Muslim think that is a crusader and anti Islam?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Can I show up in my warrior apparel with a Knight on it?







Or would a Muslim think that is a crusader and anti Islam?

If our name was the Crusaders I would buy that. Nice try though.

Do you want the name back or not? Every time an alum shows up to a game in native themed garb, it reinforces the line of reasoning that alumni would never be able to disassociate the name Warrior from the Native American imagery. Maybe making up some apparel that says Marquette Warriors with a Greco-Roman or Medieval warrior on it is the right move. Shows loyalty to the name without being disrespectful of another culture. Would it actually lead to getting the name changed? Probably not. But its more likely than continuing to trumpet for our right as white people to use native American imagery as a prop for our sports fandom

[GGGG]

Which is why Blackhawks should be banned because of the bros that wear head dresses at games....

Please. 

???  This has nothing to do with the Blackhawks.

I said "reinforce in the eyes of many."  Such as the university administration, the BOT, people who supported the name change...  When they see students wearing the headresses, it supports their assertion that the Warriors name goes hand-in-hand with native imagery and that's why "Warriors" should never return.

Perhaps I should have been more specific because of your hair-trigger defense of those who support the insulting of a minority group.

Or would a Muslim think that is a crusader and anti Islam?

I was PMing with someone about this and I predicted that you would bring this up.

<skypoint>

[ChicosBailBonds]

Someone somewhere would be outraged by it, just the way it goes.

TAMU, I have said what the solution is.  Bring the name back but align it with a symbol that will not be associated with a Native American.

People would adopt it.


This line of thinking that it justifies the decision because people wear a headdress or apparel is an utter joke.  The reason they wear it is Because of the decision.  They are protesting the decision.  Don't want them to wear it?  Simple, bring the name back and align it with a different symbol.

The GoldenState Warriors.  Period.  End of Argument!!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Someone somewhere would be outraged by it, just the way it goes.

TAMU, I have said what the solution is.  Bring the name back but align it with a symbol that will not be associated with a Native American.

People would adopt it.


This line of thinking that it justifies the decision because people wear a headdress or apparel is an utter joke.  The reason they wear it is Because of the decision.  They are protesting the decision.  Don't want them to wear it?  Simple, bring the name back and align it with a different symbol.

The GoldenState Warriors.  Period.  End of Argument!!

I'm not saying it's right that it justifies the decision. I'm just saying that it does. I can guarantee you that every time they see that headdress they say to themselves "See, even with a different mascot they still cling to that. Changing was the right decision"

I wonder if there could be a way to actually block people from wearing native apparel to games. The Central Michigan Chippewas will remove fans from sporting events who wear anything resembling native garb. Always seemed like there would be free speech issues there. Not sure how they do it. Their students do a fantastic job policing it themselves. I saw a student put on a headdress once after sneaking it. in Another student ripped it off his head and threw it over the fence outside the stadium. Maybe change the name back, change the imagery and institute a similar policy if its possible. Maybe that work.

But honestly, don't see it happening. And don't know if it should. It's been over 20 years. Continually changing your brand is not good for the university. It might be time to focus on building the Golden Eagle. Love the idea of having a live Golden Eagle for games.

[Litehouse]

Do you want the name back or not? Every time an alum shows up to a game in native themed garb, it reinforces the line of reasoning that alumni would never be able to disassociate the name Warrior from the Native American imagery. Maybe making up some apparel that says Marquette Warriors with a Greco-Roman or Medieval warrior on it is the right move. Shows loyalty to the name without being disrespectful of another culture. Would it actually lead to getting the name changed? Probably not. But its more likely than continuing to trumpet for our right as white people to use native American imagery as a prop for our sports fandom

If the university would have kept the name and changed the imagery, then people would have started using the new imagery.  However, the old imagery is all that remains, so that is what people are left with.  Individual fans aren't going to create their own new imagery on their own, and placing that responsibility on them is ridiculous.  I wear an old Warriors logo shirt to most home games.  If I made my own logo it would look stupid since I'd be the only person with it and no one would know what the heck it is.  Although I might look into a shirt that just says "Warriors".

[mu03eng]

Guys, while I agree that continuing to use the old imagery is not a great look, eliminating it won't matter.

The continued decision to not bring back the name is a financial one dressed as a moral one.  Deals were made and a name was lost forever, it would be better to start a campaign to go back to Hilltoppers

[Earl Tatum]

AS I STATED BEFORE, IT'S STILL---- WARRIORS, WARRIORS, WARRIORS, WARRIORS.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Guys, while I agree that continuing to use the old imagery is not a great look, eliminating it won't matter.

The continued decision to not bring back the name is a financial one dressed as a moral one.  Deals were made and a name was lost forever, it would be better to start a campaign to go back to Hilltoppers

What financial decision? Marquette has been offered millions in donations to bring back the name. I can't imagine it outweighs this financial decision

[GGGG]

What financial decision? Marquette has been offered millions in donations to bring back the name. I can't imagine it outweighs this financial decision

Something having to do a deal with Potowanomi and Valley Fields I believe.  One of the conditions was that the name doesn't come back.  Though I have never heard of a University source verifying this.

[mu03eng]

Something having to do a deal with Potowanomi and Valley Fields I believe.  One of the conditions was that the name doesn't come back.  Though I have never heard of a University source verifying this.

This is correct, there is additional financing that flows in from time to time as part of the deal.  It's in both parties interest to keep the deal on the DL and I don't think it will ever get acknowledged publicly

[GGGG]

This is correct, there is additional financing that flows in from time to time as part of the deal.  It's in both parties interest to keep the deal on the DL and I don't think it will ever get acknowledged publicly

The thing that has always bothered me about this was why did a trustee in a public setting offer the University $2 million to change the name back?

Did he not know about the agreement?  Did he know about it in vague terms but not the details?  Did he want the University to back out of the agreement and pay damages?  Was it something spontaneous that caused more of a fire storm than he intended?

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

The thing that has always bothered me about this was why did a trustee in a public setting offer the University $2 million to change the name back?

Did he not know about the agreement?  Did he know about it in vague terms but not the details?  Did he want the University to back out of the agreement and pay damages?  Was it something spontaneous that caused more of a fire storm than he intended?

From what I heard it was the item in bold.  Also I don't believe the final outcome impacted his support of the university.  The real kicker is that he was that he was Vice Chair of the BOT at the time of the comment which put Father Wild in a tough position.

[GGGG]

From what I heard it was the item in bold.  Also I don't believe the final outcome impacted his support of the university.  The real kicker is that he was that he was Vice Chair of the BOT at the time of the comment which put Father Wild in a tough position.

That's kind of what I figured.  But then the University and the trustee could have just handled it better.  He should have just come out with a statement that said "Oh I just got caught up in the moment.  I'm still going to give the University $2 million but I understand why we are committed to Golden Eagles."

End of controversy.  Instead they created a sh*tstorm lasted for almost a year. 

[mu03eng]

That's kind of what I figured.  But then the University and the trustee could have just handled it better.  He should have just come out with a statement that said "Oh I just got caught up in the moment.  I'm still going to give the University $2 million but I understand why we are committed to Golden Eagles."

End of controversy.  Instead they created a sh*tstorm lasted for almost a year.

From what I know, it's a little bit of both spontaneous outburst and there is a "shadow" board within the actual board that the gentleman wasn't in on.  Basically the BoT knows things in general, but there are a handful that know the full details and the commencement announcement was made based on general knowledge, not the full knowledge and spontaneously.

There are 33 members of the board, not everyone knows everything and there is a core group of 5 or 6 that are the real power behind the board.  Not anything nefarious or next level illuminati crap but an organization like Marquette can't be run in committee.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

there is a "shadow" board

So both Scoop & the BOT has an 'under-board'

[mu03eng]

So both Scoop & the BOT has an 'under-board'

There is, of course, a Scoop cabal that can't be talked about....but I've said too much already.

[Benny B]

Something having to do a deal with Potowanomi and Valley Fields I believe.  One of the conditions was that the name doesn't come back.  Though I have never heard of a University source verifying this.

Next time you're at the county recorder's office, pull title on Valley Fields... there's probably some interesting and/or esoteric stuff recorded against the land.

[mu03eng]

Next time you're at the county recorder's office, pull title on Valley Fields... there's probably some interesting and/or esoteric stuff recorded against the land.

I have and there is  but I'm not a lawyer so I didn't follow half of it.  Let's just say there seemed to be a lot of title transfers in 1994 on that lot of land.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Bring back the hilltoppers!