Notre Dame

[ErickJD08]

In my original post I said "talent."  (Never referred to recruiting at all.)  Erick defined "talent" by recruiting rankings.  I believe that ND's recruiting rankings are over-stated so I defined "talent" as those players who are drafted by the NFL.

Let me use an example.  ND's 2007 recruiting class was a consensus top 10 class.  (This is the Jimmy Clausen class.)  Yet Clausen was the only player drafted out of this class - so far.  There were numerous four and five star players who weren't even drafted.

Erick believes that this is a lack of player development by the coaching staff - I believe that UND does to football prospects what the likes of Duke do to basketball prospects.  Inflate their rankings.

Actually, that is not true.  Golden Tate was part of that class and he was drafted.  If you think NFL scouts are awesome at picking talent, you obviously are not a Bears fan.  Plenty of players drafted do not make the cut on the team and there are players not drafted that do make teams (Ian Williams from Clausen's class is an undrafted player that is signed with the 49ers, Brian Smith from Clausen's class was undrafted and is signed with the Browns).  So I am not sure if that the ultimate indicator of "talent".  And again, in football, players play a few years in college (unlike basketball) so development is critical.

This whole thing is simple.  It was mentioned that ND's independence is just a tradition thing at this point when that is not true.  It is a recruiting tool and its important.  To say Big 10 regional teams out-recruit ND in the last 5 years is just totally false.  And if you really objectively think that is true, you really don't pay attention to football recruiting (which I do).  The only team to recruit arguably as well as ND in the Big 10 is OSU.  And like I said, OSU during the last 5 years is one of the top Big 10 teams and competition for a National Title.  ND has had their worst streak EVER.  Given that they are at their worst point ever in their football program, what would you attribute to the fact that they recruit very well?  Recruiting agencies overrating ND players even though they haven't been all that good for over 10 years?  Give me a break.  

[GGGG]

Actually, that is not true.  Golden Tate was part of that class and he was drafted. 

I apologize for the oversight.

This whole thing is simple.  It was mentioned that ND's independence is just a tradition thing at this point when that is not true.  It is a recruiting tool and its important.  To say Big 10 regional teams out-recruit ND in the last 5 years is just totally false.  And if you really objectively think that is true, you really don't pay attention to football recruiting (which I do).  The only team to recruit arguably as well as ND in the Big 10 is OSU.  And like I said, OSU during the last 5 years is one of the top Big 10 teams and competition for a National Title.  ND has had their worst streak EVER.  Given that they are at their worst point ever in their football program, what would you attribute to the fact that they recruit very well?  Recruiting agencies overrating ND players even though they haven't been all that good for over 10 years?  Give me a break. 

Again...for the hundreth time...*I* never used the word recruiting.  I used the word talent.  So you can keep bringing up how good they recruit, and I will continue to assert that Notre Dame's classes are overated.  Repeatedly they do not live up to their ratings on the field, and NFL scouts don't generally believe they have more talent than the top Big Ten teams.  In fact, they generally believe they have less.  And say what you want about NFL scouts missing out on players now and then, but the vast majority of players in the NFL are drafted, and the higher the round the more likely that they are on a roster.  And they certainly know more about football talent than recruiting agencies.

So yes, I most definately believe that recruiting agencies have overrating ND players.  And the evidence supports my assertion...not yours.

[ErickJD08]

I apologize for the oversight.


Again...for the hundreth time...*I* never used the word recruiting.  I used the word talent.  So you can keep bringing up how good they recruit, and I will continue to assert that Notre Dame's classes are overated.  Repeatedly they do not live up to their ratings on the field, and NFL scouts don't generally believe they have more talent than the top Big Ten teams.  In fact, they generally believe they have less.  And say what you want about NFL scouts missing out on players now and then, but the vast majority of players in the NFL are drafted, and the higher the round the more likely that they are on a roster.  And they certainly know more about football talent than recruiting agencies.

So yes, I most definately believe that recruiting agencies have overrating ND players.  And the evidence supports my assertion...not yours.

If you don't think player development is critical for the transition from college to NFL, I don't know what to say without being offensive.  Recruiting agencies rank most heavily on size, speed, strength and then performance.  Alot can happen in 4 years.  Coaches need to teach them how to play the game.

So, even with your evidence, you are basically saying 3 schools in the Big 10 have more talent.  Three... And one of which is better by 1.  And again, this 10 year stretch that you are referencing is not a good one for ND and includes the worst 5 year period in ND history.  If we are saying that ND's WORST is 4th best from Big 10 standards, then OK.... lol.  So again, how is the worst period in ND football bringing in Big Ten 4th highest talent pool by your standards?  It's not coaching, I'll tell you that.

[GGGG]

The premise from the beginning was that ND *could* join a conference without adversely affecting their recruting.  I looked up four (and only four) schools from the B10 to prove my point - to show that schools can still obtain talent while in a conference.

[brewcity77]

The premise from the beginning was that ND *could* join a conference without adversely affecting their recruting.  I looked up four (and only four) schools from the B10 to prove my point - to show that schools can still obtain talent while in a conference.

I think it's more a pride thing. While it would reduce their overall footprint, they're still Notre Dame, they'll still get their share of national games, and it could strengthen their recognition in the area of their conference. Frankly, they've lost traction in the Midwest, if they joined the Big 10, they could improve their standing here. Same would go in traditional Big East or ACC country.

But either way, for some reason the Irish faithful think it's a badge of honor to be independent. I don't know if there's an underlying fear of a conference, or if they just want to be different, or what it is. But they are dead set on not playing everyone else's game.

Interestingly enough, that could get them a BCS at-large bid this year. Since an awful start, they're looking good. Four of their next five are at home, and their only road game is at Wake Forest. If they can run the table and bring a 9-game winning streak and confidence to their season finale at Stanford, maybe they pull the upset. If they do that, they'd almost certainly finish in the BCS top-12 and be assured a BCS at-large bid.

[ErickJD08]

The premise from the beginning was that ND *could* join a conference without adversely affecting their recruting.  I looked up four (and only four) schools from the B10 to prove my point - to show that schools can still obtain talent while in a conference.

Its clear you are a hater.  It's cool.  Your argument is a bit disjointed.  So "recruiting" or "talent" has no value unless they make it in the NFL.  The NFL is a great barometer for talent.  But man... there are so many great college players do just don't make it in the league.  And you couldn't convince me that those players are not talented. 

So it seems like your whole theory is based on some sort of conspiracy theory that ND players get rated highly.  I doubt that you know that most of NDs players were offered by SEC schools (which no one can deny is the gold standard in college football).  But I guess since they went to ND, they are overrated.  And it seems like you put no value into player development or scouting.  I mean, you know that kids get recruited.  They don't just get a postcard saying "COME TO NOTRE DAME!".  So the coaches are recruiting for ND, aren't the coaches at fault for not finding better players?

Again, if you look at ND in the hay day, they had a ton of greats and NFL players.  You look at their worst period which is the last 10 years and they are still pretty good (as far as recruiting ratings and NFL prospects).  Most fans and objective commentators would say that their independence is a strength by allowing them to remain a national team.  Perhaps ND could recruit just as well in the Big 10, but if they can right the ship and be successful on the field, it will pay huge dividends.  And I think that is the gamble that ND is taking by not joining a conference at this stage.  That's my take.

[rocky_warrior]

It's clear this is no longer a thread about Marquette Basketball, and as such is now relocated to the Superbar....

[GGGG]

Its clear you are a hater.  It's cool. 

I actually agree with much of what you said, and snipped for brevity sake.

And while I'm not a fan of ND, I'm not sure what I said that was critical of them.  I essentially said that their recruits can be overrated (not their fault) and that they would do fine as a member of a conference.  (Which is more of a complement than anything.)

I'm not even saying they *should* join a conference.  They are fine how they are now.  If it comes time when they don't have much of a choice and need to join somewhere, they will be fine then.