Notre Dame

[dw3dw3dw3]

Notre Dame seems to be the lone wild card in this whole mess for the Big East. They obviously hold all the cards and they know it.  I'm not sure if they have proposed it, but if they align their football starship to the conference they would be able to run the league. Dictate the number of games played, divisions, etc.. to their liking. IMO, this is the only thing that saves the Big East and its BCS bid. Pay teams their true market value as a portion of the TV contract. Meaning ND gets 50% or so (guessing their value) and everyone splits the rest on their pull for basketball and football. The Northeast remains Big East and Notre Dame basically runs the show and gets a BCS bid every year. Basketball remains the same minus cuse/pitt. Is there too much pride at each of the member schools to make this happen? As previously shown the basketball schools only pull 1-2 million from the current TV contract. At minimum that could remain in-tact with a new TV contract featuring ND.  I just don't think that 1-2 million/national exposure would be available with with a basketball only league. The new 14 team league will have a shot to be one of the top 3 conferences every year. I know it sets a bad precedence to give one school so much power, but it might be worth it and MU could kick their A** in basketball every year to make us feel better.

Am I just wishfully thinking or is there a chance this could happen?

[bilsu]

no chance

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I was thinking somewhere along those lines.  I have a lot of ND alumni friends here in Connecticut as there seems to be a ton of ND alumni out this way.  ND obviously wants its "non-football sports" to be in a strong conference so what's to preclude ND from going to NBC/Comcast (with it's Versus, Universal Sports and Comcast Sports networks) and say we want to be a part of a strong Northeast located conference for everything except football obviously and for it to be strong in other sports they need a functioning stable football conference that only TV money can bring.  Can NBC/Comcast have a Big East football game of the week as our warmup act and can you also show a few more games on your cable networks and throw some basketball on in the winter also?

[dw3dw3dw3]

Hmm... http://twitter.com/#!/andyglockner

[GGGG]

Here is why I doubt this happens:

1. Notre Dame has absolutely no incentive to make it happen.  Why split *any* football revenue with the BE schools.  Outside of possibly West Virginia, there is not a single school left in the league that has any more *football* cache than a typical CUSA school.  They have no need to share if they don't want to.

2. ND knows that its non-football programs will always have a soft spot on which to land.  At worse, they will be with the BE basketball schools.  At best, a conference like the ACC might take them as a non-football member.

They have no incentive to allign themselves with the BE in a football conference.

[Nukem2]

ND has serious delusions about it's status as a FB power.  It would be a middle-of-the-pack FB program in a 4 mega-conference scenario.  That would be an issue for them.  If BE's FB folds, ND's delusipns could become it's worst nightmares........

[g0lden3agle]

Would Notre Dame consider staying independent in football and staying in some sort of "non-football" conference, be it a reincarnated Big East or some differently named conference?  There are a lot of powerful non-football playing Basketball schools that could make it's name for itself as a Basketball powerhouse conference (as we've gone over countless times on other threads).  Notre Dame would fit very well in a conference like that. 

[GGGG]

If that is their best option I am sure they would be willing to be in a non-football conference for their other sports.

[ErickJD08]

ND has serious delusions about it's status as a FB power.  It would be a middle-of-the-pack FB program in a 4 mega-conference scenario.  That would be an issue for them.  If BE's FB folds, ND's delusipns could become it's worst nightmares........

By "FB power", are you referring the actual team or the revenue?  If your old enough, you know is always about the money.  And with that said, ND is a powerhouse.

[GGGG]

ND makes less television money now than every school in the B10, P12 and SEC.  Their issue is that their indentity is tied up in their independence.  Any alum will tell you that it's a point of pride for them.  They will hang on to that as long as they can.

[ErickJD08]

ND makes less television money now than every school in the B10, P12 and SEC.  Their issue is that their indentity is tied up in their independence.  Any alum will tell you that it's a point of pride for them.  They will hang on to that as long as they can.

Sure.  They are independent.  So have 36 schools that make more money than ND.  And 25 or the 36 are coat tailing the gravy train.  They are still a high revenue program. 

And as for independence and pride, I know a ton of alums and it has very little to do with pride.  It is about remaining a national program and joining a conference inherently makes you regional.  Although the record is not indicative, they recruit nationally and end up in the top 10 getting top recruits every year.  If they join the Big 10, it would get harder to get kids from CA, TX, and FL.

[Nukem2]

By "FB power", are you referring the actual team or the revenue?  If your old enough, you know is always about the money.  And with that said, ND is a powerhouse.

B FB power, I mean on the field.  ND has been living on it's past and it helps non-athltic fund raising.  Moving into a conference may well enhance FB revenue, but may well lead to a decline in other fundi raising over the long haul if FB gets stuck in the middle or lwer echelons off a BCS FB conference.

[GGGG]

Well, maybe ND should try to be a little more regional then since there are multiple schools in their region that have more talent, and more on-field success, then they have had recently.  (And Wisconsin has more players from Florida on its roster than ND does.)

[ErickJD08]

Well, maybe ND should try to be a little more regional then since there are multiple schools in their region that have more talent, and more on-field success, then they have had recently.  (And Wisconsin has more players from Florida on its roster than ND does.)

Oh goodness... OK.  Recruiting rankings are overrated but it is the only way to really objectively discuss "talent" level.  The simple fact that there are more kids from FL doesn't mean there is more talent. 

Rivals...
ND
2011 - #10
2010 - #14
2009 - #21
2008 - #2
2007 - #8

Top 2 BIG 10 teams that year.

2011 - OSU -#11; Nebraska - #15
2010 - PSU - #12; Michigan - #20
2009 - OSU - #3; Michigan #8
2008 - OSU - #4; Michigan - #10
2007- Michigan - #12; OSU - #15

It's clear that ND recruits arguably better (according to one of the major recruiting groups) than every other Big 10 team.  I think it should be noted that the last 5-6 years is the worst period in ND's football history and they still out recruit OSU (who was playing for a NC championship every year).  Just think what would happen if ND was really good.  I think that is the gamble ND is making not joining.  If they right the ship (which I think they will), they will make a ton of ca$h.  So I think trying to stay a national program is in their interest. 

[GGGG]

Heh...nothing is more overated than Big Ten basketball and Notre Dame football recruiting classes.  Number of players drafted in the last ten NFL drafts:

Notre Dame: 44

Ohio State: 67
Michigan: 45
Wisconsin: 50
Iowa: 44

[ErickJD08]

Heh...nothing is more overated than Big Ten basketball and Notre Dame football recruiting classes.  Number of players drafted in the last ten NFL drafts:

Notre Dame: 44

Ohio State: 67
Michigan: 45
Wisconsin: 50
Iowa: 44

Eh... whateves.  We can talk about drafts and all that stuff.  Draft is also overrated because many of those players are not even on a team in a couple of years.  If you are on a good team, there is a higher likelihood that you will be drafted too.  If a team is ranking well in the recruiting services, success and draft results are more on player development than recruiting.  That's why I think Roy Williams is overrated as a coach.  And kinda why I think Buzz is a good coach.  We shall see.  I just think if ND joins the Big Ten, it will without a doubt hurt their national presence/recruiting.  So big picture, I think that is why ND is reluctant to join a conference.

[GGGG]

LOL right...those NFL scouts are much worse at evaluating talent than rating services are.

[MUMac]

LOL right...those NFL scouts are much worse at evaluating talent than rating services are.

You switched your argument from recruiting to drafting.  ND recruits well.  It can be argued they do not develop that talent.   

[GGGG]

No I never switched anything.  Erick was the one that brought up recruiting.  I never mentioned it.  My argument from the beginning was that their independent status had nothing to do with the "quality" of their (overated) recruiting classes.  Programs that are within their same geographical area recruit better than they do.

[brewcity77]

No I never switched anything.  Erick was the one that brought up recruiting.  I never mentioned it.  My argument from the beginning was that their independent status had nothing to do with the "quality" of their (overated) recruiting classes.  Programs that are within their same geographical area recruit better than they do.

While ND has made a lot of mistakes over the years, they do still have the largest footprint in college football. Their NBC contract puts them in TVs from Indiana to New York to Florida to Texas to California to Washington and everywhere in between.

I'll be the first to say they've failed massively at utilizing that over the past 10 or so years, but the footprint is still there.

[Oregon Warrior]

No I never switched anything.  Erick was the one that brought up recruiting.  I never mentioned it.  My argument from the beginning was that their independent status had nothing to do with the "quality" of their (overated) recruiting classes.  Programs that are within their same geographical area recruit better than they do.

You clearly have something against ND. Their independent status has everything to do with how well they recruit nationally. It's what they sell to every recruit.

[GGGG]

You clearly have something against ND. Their independent status has everything to do with how well they recruit nationally. It's what they sell to every recruit.

I understand that is what they sell to every recruit.  I just stated that they could recruit just as well if they were in a conference, and used schools within their very region to show that.  Regardless, their independent status is important to them for a couple of reasons, which is why they forego the $$ that a conference affiliation brings.

While ND has made a lot of mistakes over the years, they do still have the largest footprint in college football. Their NBC contract puts them in TVs from Indiana to New York to Florida to Texas to California to Washington and everywhere in between.

I'll be the first to say they've failed massively at utilizing that over the past 10 or so years, but the footprint is still there.

That doesn't mean what it used to.  Every major college football team can be seen coast to coast for their most important games these days.  For instance, if I wanted to I could probably catch all of Alabama's games, except for the weaker non-conference games to start the season.

[brewcity77]

I get that, but what about all of Washington State's games, or North Carolina, Texas A&M, Boston College...ND has an advantage on many programs. Maybe not the top tier schools, but certainly they are easier to watch than anyone outside the perennial top ten. And you don't need cable or dish to watch them. Anyone who has a TV has NBC.

The importance of their footprint isn't what it once was, but it's still a solid selling point. Of course, that said, it should be near-inexcusable when a coach can't at least keep them in the 10-25 range of the rankings. The only logical excuse is academics.

[MUMac]

No I never switched anything.  Erick was the one that brought up recruiting.  I never mentioned it.  My argument from the beginning was that their independent status had nothing to do with the "quality" of their (overated) recruiting classes.  Programs that are within their same geographical area recruit better than they do.

Well, maybe ND should try to be a little more regional then since there are multiple schools in their region that have more talent, and more on-field success, then they have had recently.  (And Wisconsin has more players from Florida on its roster than ND does.)

Heh...nothing is more overated than Big Ten basketball and Notre Dame football recruiting classes.  Number of players drafted in the last ten NFL drafts:

Notre Dame: 44

Ohio State: 67
Michigan: 45
Wisconsin: 50
Iowa: 44

No, that is a switch. 

[GGGG]

In my original post I said "talent."  (Never referred to recruiting at all.)  Erick defined "talent" by recruiting rankings.  I believe that ND's recruiting rankings are over-stated so I defined "talent" as those players who are drafted by the NFL.

Let me use an example.  ND's 2007 recruiting class was a consensus top 10 class.  (This is the Jimmy Clausen class.)  Yet Clausen was the only player drafted out of this class - so far.  There were numerous four and five star players who weren't even drafted.

Erick believes that this is a lack of player development by the coaching staff - I believe that UND does to football prospects what the likes of Duke do to basketball prospects.  Inflate their rankings.

[ErickJD08]

In my original post I said "talent."  (Never referred to recruiting at all.)  Erick defined "talent" by recruiting rankings.  I believe that ND's recruiting rankings are over-stated so I defined "talent" as those players who are drafted by the NFL.

Let me use an example.  ND's 2007 recruiting class was a consensus top 10 class.  (This is the Jimmy Clausen class.)  Yet Clausen was the only player drafted out of this class - so far.  There were numerous four and five star players who weren't even drafted.

Erick believes that this is a lack of player development by the coaching staff - I believe that UND does to football prospects what the likes of Duke do to basketball prospects.  Inflate their rankings.

Actually, that is not true.  Golden Tate was part of that class and he was drafted.  If you think NFL scouts are awesome at picking talent, you obviously are not a Bears fan.  Plenty of players drafted do not make the cut on the team and there are players not drafted that do make teams (Ian Williams from Clausen's class is an undrafted player that is signed with the 49ers, Brian Smith from Clausen's class was undrafted and is signed with the Browns).  So I am not sure if that the ultimate indicator of "talent".  And again, in football, players play a few years in college (unlike basketball) so development is critical.

This whole thing is simple.  It was mentioned that ND's independence is just a tradition thing at this point when that is not true.  It is a recruiting tool and its important.  To say Big 10 regional teams out-recruit ND in the last 5 years is just totally false.  And if you really objectively think that is true, you really don't pay attention to football recruiting (which I do).  The only team to recruit arguably as well as ND in the Big 10 is OSU.  And like I said, OSU during the last 5 years is one of the top Big 10 teams and competition for a National Title.  ND has had their worst streak EVER.  Given that they are at their worst point ever in their football program, what would you attribute to the fact that they recruit very well?  Recruiting agencies overrating ND players even though they haven't been all that good for over 10 years?  Give me a break.  

[GGGG]

Actually, that is not true.  Golden Tate was part of that class and he was drafted. 

I apologize for the oversight.

This whole thing is simple.  It was mentioned that ND's independence is just a tradition thing at this point when that is not true.  It is a recruiting tool and its important.  To say Big 10 regional teams out-recruit ND in the last 5 years is just totally false.  And if you really objectively think that is true, you really don't pay attention to football recruiting (which I do).  The only team to recruit arguably as well as ND in the Big 10 is OSU.  And like I said, OSU during the last 5 years is one of the top Big 10 teams and competition for a National Title.  ND has had their worst streak EVER.  Given that they are at their worst point ever in their football program, what would you attribute to the fact that they recruit very well?  Recruiting agencies overrating ND players even though they haven't been all that good for over 10 years?  Give me a break. 

Again...for the hundreth time...*I* never used the word recruiting.  I used the word talent.  So you can keep bringing up how good they recruit, and I will continue to assert that Notre Dame's classes are overated.  Repeatedly they do not live up to their ratings on the field, and NFL scouts don't generally believe they have more talent than the top Big Ten teams.  In fact, they generally believe they have less.  And say what you want about NFL scouts missing out on players now and then, but the vast majority of players in the NFL are drafted, and the higher the round the more likely that they are on a roster.  And they certainly know more about football talent than recruiting agencies.

So yes, I most definately believe that recruiting agencies have overrating ND players.  And the evidence supports my assertion...not yours.

[ErickJD08]

I apologize for the oversight.


Again...for the hundreth time...*I* never used the word recruiting.  I used the word talent.  So you can keep bringing up how good they recruit, and I will continue to assert that Notre Dame's classes are overated.  Repeatedly they do not live up to their ratings on the field, and NFL scouts don't generally believe they have more talent than the top Big Ten teams.  In fact, they generally believe they have less.  And say what you want about NFL scouts missing out on players now and then, but the vast majority of players in the NFL are drafted, and the higher the round the more likely that they are on a roster.  And they certainly know more about football talent than recruiting agencies.

So yes, I most definately believe that recruiting agencies have overrating ND players.  And the evidence supports my assertion...not yours.

If you don't think player development is critical for the transition from college to NFL, I don't know what to say without being offensive.  Recruiting agencies rank most heavily on size, speed, strength and then performance.  Alot can happen in 4 years.  Coaches need to teach them how to play the game.

So, even with your evidence, you are basically saying 3 schools in the Big 10 have more talent.  Three... And one of which is better by 1.  And again, this 10 year stretch that you are referencing is not a good one for ND and includes the worst 5 year period in ND history.  If we are saying that ND's WORST is 4th best from Big 10 standards, then OK.... lol.  So again, how is the worst period in ND football bringing in Big Ten 4th highest talent pool by your standards?  It's not coaching, I'll tell you that.

[GGGG]

The premise from the beginning was that ND *could* join a conference without adversely affecting their recruting.  I looked up four (and only four) schools from the B10 to prove my point - to show that schools can still obtain talent while in a conference.

[brewcity77]

The premise from the beginning was that ND *could* join a conference without adversely affecting their recruting.  I looked up four (and only four) schools from the B10 to prove my point - to show that schools can still obtain talent while in a conference.

I think it's more a pride thing. While it would reduce their overall footprint, they're still Notre Dame, they'll still get their share of national games, and it could strengthen their recognition in the area of their conference. Frankly, they've lost traction in the Midwest, if they joined the Big 10, they could improve their standing here. Same would go in traditional Big East or ACC country.

But either way, for some reason the Irish faithful think it's a badge of honor to be independent. I don't know if there's an underlying fear of a conference, or if they just want to be different, or what it is. But they are dead set on not playing everyone else's game.

Interestingly enough, that could get them a BCS at-large bid this year. Since an awful start, they're looking good. Four of their next five are at home, and their only road game is at Wake Forest. If they can run the table and bring a 9-game winning streak and confidence to their season finale at Stanford, maybe they pull the upset. If they do that, they'd almost certainly finish in the BCS top-12 and be assured a BCS at-large bid.

[ErickJD08]

The premise from the beginning was that ND *could* join a conference without adversely affecting their recruting.  I looked up four (and only four) schools from the B10 to prove my point - to show that schools can still obtain talent while in a conference.

Its clear you are a hater.  It's cool.  Your argument is a bit disjointed.  So "recruiting" or "talent" has no value unless they make it in the NFL.  The NFL is a great barometer for talent.  But man... there are so many great college players do just don't make it in the league.  And you couldn't convince me that those players are not talented. 

So it seems like your whole theory is based on some sort of conspiracy theory that ND players get rated highly.  I doubt that you know that most of NDs players were offered by SEC schools (which no one can deny is the gold standard in college football).  But I guess since they went to ND, they are overrated.  And it seems like you put no value into player development or scouting.  I mean, you know that kids get recruited.  They don't just get a postcard saying "COME TO NOTRE DAME!".  So the coaches are recruiting for ND, aren't the coaches at fault for not finding better players?

Again, if you look at ND in the hay day, they had a ton of greats and NFL players.  You look at their worst period which is the last 10 years and they are still pretty good (as far as recruiting ratings and NFL prospects).  Most fans and objective commentators would say that their independence is a strength by allowing them to remain a national team.  Perhaps ND could recruit just as well in the Big 10, but if they can right the ship and be successful on the field, it will pay huge dividends.  And I think that is the gamble that ND is taking by not joining a conference at this stage.  That's my take.

[rocky_warrior]

It's clear this is no longer a thread about Marquette Basketball, and as such is now relocated to the Superbar....

[GGGG]

Its clear you are a hater.  It's cool. 

I actually agree with much of what you said, and snipped for brevity sake.

And while I'm not a fan of ND, I'm not sure what I said that was critical of them.  I essentially said that their recruits can be overrated (not their fault) and that they would do fine as a member of a conference.  (Which is more of a complement than anything.)

I'm not even saying they *should* join a conference.  They are fine how they are now.  If it comes time when they don't have much of a choice and need to join somewhere, they will be fine then.