Chicago Tribune painting unflattering picture of MU...

[SoCalwarrior]

Before I answer that, I'd like to know why my last post was deleted by the mods?

All posts by Chicos that responds to or mentions Ners will be deleted now and forever.  All posts by Ners that responds to or mentions Chicos  will be deleted now and forever.  

[StillAWarrior]

Fair enough. I don't really disagree with that. Where I disagree - and apologies if I'm misinterpreting you here - is whether such statements would have made any difference in a potential prosecution. Sure, a witness might have a sharper recollection of the woman's demeanor one day after the fact than 60 days after the fact. But I don't think many (any?) prosecutors go to court in a case of this nature with the primary supporting evidence being a neighbor's interpretation of the accuser's demeanor while spotted walking from an apartment.
Screams are another matter entirely, and I don't think one's recollection of screams is as subject to the passage of time as, say, remembering whether someone had an unhappy demeanor.

I think we pretty well agree on all of this.  At its core, my point is simple:  prompt investigations are preferable and in some cases can lead to important evidence (either exculpatory or incriminating).  Marquette's failure to report may well have prevented such an investigation.

Under the facts of this case, I'm willing to admit that a prompt and thorough investigation might have turned up nothing interesting, but I don't know.

[HouWarrior]

Its take a step back from the ledge time.

There hasnt been and wont be any criminal prosecutions...its a dead issue. There will be no criminal leverage to improve the quality/$ in a civil lawsuit....BUT that doesnt mean one isnt coming....and the target isnt a few poor college students, for what they did....its deeper pocketed MU for what they didnt do , or did wrong in the handling of it.

Any Gloria Alred/scandal fan is aware of the tacts being taken including the press usage.

Recall, the original complaint was with the unfair treatment of the Oct incident as only harrassment. Every article you see whether in Milw or Chicago, or whether on the Oct. or Feb. incident, always  speaks to the school's handling of the complaints/investigation/reporting. Why? Because that is where MU owes a legal duty to act reasonably, and where it may be liable, at the very least for negligence.

I dont do Plaintiff's work, but some of my friends who do, especially in the employee lawsuit bar, have PR firms ready to help them feed stories and reporters. It embarasses the corporate defendant, can drive down share prices, taint a local jury pool of citizens who have this in the back of their mind...well, there is almost no downside to a civil plaintiffs lawyer looking for $ helping the cause by press leaking/feeding.
In the cost driven world of media...you'd be surprised how little independent work is done and the percentage of fed/planted stories that come through the PR folks.. Even the esteemed 60 minutes has done a few plaintiffs lawyer fed stories.

The fact this Chi Trib story is so strong and detailed is simply evident that the plaintiffs have ratchetted up the press use to a higher level...There are civil suits coming...MU expects such,...and so far its employed the best stops it can to minimize loss and payout on the claims....pay less attention to this article and standby for the civil suit filings.

In preparation for the filings...Reread the article and imagine you are hearing this young lady in a witness box, describing all this, in tears, and in the formality of a courtroom. Its very tough to defend. In prior posts, I covered the male jurors deferrence, and the leaps a jury will make to hold the institution liable, for an award of $.
They are way too long to retype here..but they are in this thread;

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=26559.msg298629#msg298629

If we want a new thread parlor game, its to guess how much MU will pay to put this to bed...someone out there expects to be paid.

Another game would be to dig up the atty representing the plaintiff, and his PR firm. Has anyone contacted this reporter to ask about the reporters sources--- many reporters will give those out and really good reporters name all sources in actual story..hmmmm thats missing here.

[Lennys Tap]

Tragic situation for all to be in.

1) I hope the young lady gains piece of mind.  It's apparent that she feels no one heard her cries for help (right or wrong), for that Marquette should be ashamed of their role in this tragedy.  I hope that her life isn't forever scared by her time at Marquette, and she can live a happy life at some point in the future.

Please. Listen to what you say later in your post. We don't know what happened that night. If she's telling the truth, that she was raped and MU turned its back on her then yes, it's a tragedy and the university should be ashamed and worse. But what if all but one detail of her story is true? What if she did run into a guy she used to have a sexual relationship with but who stopped calling? And what if in spite of that she agreed to go up to his room for sex? And what if his remarks to her (are you going to call me? No., for example) occured post coitus and not during? And what if that coarseness made her feel hurt, small and worthless? And looking for vengeance? I'm not suggesting that's what happened. But after hearing her story both the DPS officers and Dr Quade evidently thought something less than a crime occured. I'd like to know why before we call this a tragedy.

[RawdogDX]

If she's telling the truth, that she was raped and MU turned its back on her then yes, it's a tragedy and the university should be ashamed and worse.

I don't know about that.  They wanted her to go to counseling.  That is a better move than spending months trying to prove something that is unprovable. 
I hate to say it but sometimes the high equity play isn't to try and publish someone to the fullest extent of the law.  It is to move on with your life. 

She was mad because the person she was talking to told her the truth.  No DA in the world wants to try a rape case based on the idea that the guy, who she has been sleeping with, didn't stop mid-bumping uglies quickly enough.  As much as it sucks, that is good advice, she's better off in recovery than seeking retribution. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

All posts by Chicos that responds to or mentions Ners will be deleted now and forever.  All posts by Ners that responds to or mentions Chicos  will be deleted now and forever.  

So we are not allowed to respond to one another?  Interesting....but I'm guessing the slamming by other posters will be allowed to continue as it has for a long time. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

If we want a new thread parlor game, its to guess how much MU will pay to put this to bed...someone out there expects to be paid.

Another game would be to dig up the atty representing the plaintiff, and his PR firm. Has anyone contacted this reporter to ask about the reporters sources--- many reporters will give those out and really good reporters name all sources in actual story..hmmmm thats missing here.

What's the opening bid?  I suspect a lot of this depends on how many other women come forward due to MU's direction the last decade.  Fun times.

[dgies9156]

All right folks, lets deal with reality (as I sure has been done in at least a few of the six pages of postings).

1) Marquette has had security problems of one sort or another since 1970. Why should this surprise anyone? The engineering frat houses moved from West Highland on to campus because some guests were killed. Rapes around campus, especially before Campus Circle, were not infrequent and the potential for mayhem was high. Give our administration credit for dealing with this problem.

2) The real issue is whether 18 and 19 year olds should be supervised as adults or as teenagers. In the 1950s and early 1960s, the supervision of the student body was much more intense and created less likelihood of the kind of incidents the two women allege. It happened for two reasons -- one, the men avoided the near occasion of sin and second, so did the women. Intervisitation was much more controlled and limited. Likewise, potential mayhem in the form of alcohol was more controlled. Things still happened, but it was harder. By the 1970s, nobody cared what we did and we did about anything we wanted. If you want the university to step up (and maybe you do), then you should be willing to restrict the freedom of campus students.

3) In these cases, the fact pattern is not conducive to a conviction. That's not to say the young women were not brutalized or taken advantage of by the athletes, but the fact pattern suggests some degree of consentuality, which blows a sexual assault case. What will never be known is what caused these women to be in this situation in the first place. Best bet: bad judgement. Does that make it right or the athletes behavior acceptable? Of course not. But is it the university's fault -- also probablty not.

4) Finally, what happened at MU is what happens when night watchmen or "rent-a-cops" become policemen. Yes, they need better training. But their job is not to be Milwaukee Policemen, or their extension. I'd like to think they could do a better job, but the fact is Marquette probably failed to effectvely train them. One interesting note though, is why did the athletic department know? Did they do a better job of training? I'll bet so!

I don't think this will have a  long-term effect on player recruiting, unless openness to sexual assault is a game-changer (in which case, we don't want the player anyway). More importantly, I am concerned about the impact this will have on the portions of the extended Marquette family who use any failing by a basketball team member (lets face it, it probably is a basketball player) to call into question the existence and support for the basketball team. Many of us have written in other posts about our anger over how this element of MU in the late 1970s helped chase off Al and probably contributed to the cheapness that affected performance for the 1980s.

[lurch91]

Please. Listen to what you say later in your post. We don't know what happened that night. If she's telling the truth, that she was raped and MU turned its back on her then yes, it's a tragedy and the university should be ashamed and worse. But what if all but one detail of her story is true? What if she did run into a guy she used to have a sexual relationship with but who stopped calling? And what if in spite of that she agreed to go up to his room for sex? And what if his remarks to her (are you going to call me? No., for example) occured post coitus and not during? And what if that coarseness made her feel hurt, small and worthless? And looking for vengeance? I'm not suggesting that's what happened. But after hearing her story both the DPS officers and Dr Quade evidently thought something less than a crime occured. I'd like to know why before we call this a tragedy.

From the Tribune article, the young lady sounds distraught.  While it might be posturing by a media firm/attorney, it just might be how she sees how the events play out.  Her mental health is of a concern by her own words (I'm not trying to paint her as bipolar), whether or not a crime took place.  My concern for her presumed state of her mental health is independent of what happened that night.

And it's tragic for how this all has played out, I'm just glad that the athlete's name has not be used/leaked.  If MPD had been notified immediately and the same conclusions had been reached, do you think there would be a Chicago Tribune article about it?

[StillAWarrior]

4) Finally, what happened at MU is what happens when night watchmen or "rent-a-cops" become policemen. Yes, they need better training. But their job is not to be Milwaukee Policement, or their extension. I'd like to think they could do a better job, but the fact is Marquette probably failed to effectvely train them.

I'm not even convinced that blame goes to the DPS officers.  Apparently, it was a policy at MU that no reports were made to MPD unless the accuser requested their involvement.  I don't think the blame for that apparently illegal policy should be placed at those officers' feet.

[StillAWarrior]

From the Tribune article, the young lady sounds distraught.  While it might be posturing by a media firm/attorney, it just might be how she sees how the events play out.  Her mental health is of a concern by her own words (I'm not trying to paint her as bipolar), whether or not a crime took place.  My concern for her presumed state of her mental health is independent of what happened that night.

She sure does "sound" distraught.  Given the lack of information about what happened that night, I'm not willing to form an opinion of whether she is justifiably distraught, unreasonably distraught or conveniently distraught.  I simply don't know.

[Pakuni]

Its take a step back from the ledge time.

There hasnt been and wont be any criminal prosecutions...its a dead issue. There will be no criminal leverage to improve the quality/$ in a civil lawsuit....BUT that doesnt mean one isnt coming....and the target isnt a few poor college students, for what they did....its deeper pocketed MU for what they didnt do , or did wrong in the handling of it.

I don't doubt a lawsuit could be forthcoming, or that MU may just pay a nice settlement to prevent one.
I do, however, wonder how liable MU might be here. There's no doubt they violated state regulations here, but what damages can this student claim from that? She could, and would, try for mental anguish and suffering, but I doubt a jury sees MU's handling of this matter as the primary cause of that. Also, going to trial would force this girl to testify, at the risk of jurors not believing her account and giving her nothing as a result.
Regardless, I suspect that if this student is inclined to sue, everyone involved will find it in their best interests for a quiet out-of-court payment rather than any formal litigation.

FWIW, I know one of reporters who did this story pretty well, and I find it exceptionally unlikely that person is acting as a puppet or dupe for any plaintiff's attorney. They may have received information through an attorney for the girl, and no doubt that attorney is reveling in this coverage, but they're not doing this at anyone's behest.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

All posts by Chicos that responds to or mentions Ners will be deleted now and forever.  All posts by Ners that responds to or mentions Chicos  will be deleted now and forever.  

At least something good came out of this.

[Clarence]

I'm not even convinced that blame goes to the DPS officers.  Apparently, it was a policy at MU that no reports were made to MPD unless the accuser requested their involvement.  I don't think the blame for that apparently illegal policy should be placed at those officers' feet.

Sorry if this has already been covered,

But, Does the Wisconsiin State Law require that the Public Safety report all suspected crimes to MPD, with or without the students consent?  Is this only for sex crimes?  

[GGGG]

Sorry if this has already been covered,

But, Does the Wisconsiin State Law require that the Public Safety report all suspected crimes to MPD, with or without the students consent?  Is this only for sex crimes?   

The answers are yes and I don't know. 

[jesmu84]

Is it Quade's job to determine if a crime was committed? 


Someone earlier today said that she came down hard on the Club Lacrosse team.  I hope people understand that coming down hard on the club lacrosse team as opposed to the men's basketball team is akin to the NCAA punishing Southwest Texas State for something USC did.  There are no internal political repercussions in hammering a club team.  There are MAJOR internal political repercussions when going after the men's basketball team.  This is the reality of big time college sports and just as much a reality at MU as it is anywhere else.

I think I've read all the articles and all the posts about this topic. Where, ANYWHERE, does it state this "student-athlete" was a men's bball player?

[Clarence]

The answers are yes and I don't know. 

I guess it begs the question, why even have the middle men.  

It seems to me that if a student wants to report a crime they should be required to contact the MPD themselves, and the University should stay out of it completely.  

[StillAWarrior]

Sorry if this has already been covered,

But, Does the Wisconsiin State Law require that the Public Safety report all suspected crimes to MPD, with or without the students consent?  Is this only for sex crimes?

The Tribune article is ambiguous:

"The university now acknowledges that failing to notify police was a violation of state law, which requires campus security departments to report any possible crimes to local authorities."

and

"'Once they have reason to believe that a crime like a sexual assault has occurred, they have a mandatory obligation to report that to police, and that didn't happen,' Chisholm said. 'Everyone acknowledges that.'"


I can't believe that the first one ("any possible crimes") is the standard.  And the second one is a bit vague.

[Pakuni]

Sorry if this has already been covered,

But, Does the Wisconsiin State Law require that the Public Safety report all suspected crimes to MPD, with or without the students consent?  Is this only for sex crimes?  

Wisconsin law states:
"Any person licensed as a private detective or granted a private security permit under s. 440.26 who has reasonable grounds to believe that a crime is being committed or has been committed shall notify promptly an appropriate law enforcement agency of the facts which form the basis for this belief."

There is some ambiguity there in the phrase "reasonable grounds to believe," but the university has now taken the stance, correctly, that a complaint is enough of a reasonable grounds.
By the way, these are state regulations/civil law, not anything criminal. Nobody at Marquette is going to be prosecuted over this.

[HouWarrior]

I don't doubt a lawsuit could be forthcoming, or that MU may just pay a nice settlement to prevent one.
I do, however, wonder how liable MU might be here. There's no doubt they violated state regulations here, but what damages can this student claim from that? She could, and would, try for mental anguish and suffering, but I doubt a jury sees MU's handling of this matter as the primary cause of that. Also, going to trial would force this girl to testify, at the risk of jurors not believing her account and giving her nothing as a result.
Regardless, I suspect that if this student is inclined to sue, everyone involved will find it in their best interests for a quiet out-of-court payment rather than any formal litigation.

Yup--Itll settle out. In the abstract you are right about post incident investigations/handling usually lacking a nexus to a victim's emotional distress. Note here, however, the trib outlines her distress, specifically about the way it was handled---she is being well coached for the bigger bucks. By the timeline in the trib...she even left school after the interviews, and as her distress overcame her...get out the check. lol

Its odd, but even when the nexus is lacking, jurors seeing the pain/crying angst of the plaintiff/victim often have little problem filling in facts/causation to hold the institutional defendant in the chair liable--guess they feel the need to feed the pain. In fact, the best Plaintiffs tact is to drop the accused individual, before trial, to prevent 2 individual competing stories, to ensure the victims is the only one heard by the jury and leaving the institution (who wasnt there when it happened) to try to fade the heat on the defense.

I have defended exactly this scenario, ..its tough...and yes, we settled out.

[HouWarrior]

I hope people understand that coming down hard on the club lacrosse team as opposed to the men's basketball team is akin to the NCAA punishing Southwest Texas State for something USC did. 

The reference recalls my favorite Jerry Tarkanian quote .."The NCAA is so mad at Kentucky they are giving Cleveland State two more years of probation" ...

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think I've read all the articles and all the posts about this topic. Where, ANYWHERE, does it state this "student-athlete" was a men's bball player?

Nowhere in the October incident did newspaper articles say the 4 student athletes were basketball players either.  My comment about Quade was pretty straight forward, just because she came down hard on a club team doesn't mean a hill of beans when talking about the sports that matter at MU or any other university. They are treated differently.  To deny this is to have their head in the sand.  Athletes get second and third chances that many others do not and there are examples a plenty all around the NCAA and yes, even at Marquette.  This should surprise NO ONE.

My issue with this thing since day one (go and look it up if you must) is that as a university they screwed the pooch.  Their actions put these players and the victim in limbo because they waited so long to tell the PROPER authorities.  Thus, a cloud hangs over their heads.  These guys could be totally innocent but the cloud remains because MPD couldn't properly do their job so there is the perception of guilt by some and a perception that the university cares more about protecting some students than others.  That perception exists, whether people here want to believe it or not, it does exist.  WTMJ is doing something on the radio about that very subject today.

I don't recall saying that THIS incident involved a basketball player...nor am I saying it didn't. I know what I've heard (and what others have heard) about both incidents through a number of different folks and will merely say that because of privacy laws, etc, many details do not get into the press. It's a shame that these student athletes, the alleged female victims, and the university are going through this but the actions the university took (or in actions in this case) are the reason why.  

[reinko]

Nowhere in the October incident did newspaper articles say the 4 student athletes were basketball players either.  My comment about Quade was pretty straight forward, just because she came down hard on a club team doesn't mean a hill of beans when talking about the sports that matter at MU or any other university. They are treated differently.  To deny this is to have their head in the sand.  Athletes get second and third chances that many others do not and there are examples a plenty all around the NCAA and yes, even at Marquette.  This should surprise NO ONE.

My issue with this thing since day one (go and look it up if you must) is that as a university they screwed the pooch.  Their actions put these players and the victim in limbo because they waited so long to tell the PROPER authorities.  Thus, a cloud hangs over their heads.  These guys could be totally innocent but the cloud remains because MPD couldn't properly do their job so there is the perception of guilt by some and a perception that the university cares more about protecting some students than others.  That perception exists, whether people here want to believe it or not, it does exist.  WTMJ is doing something on the radio about that very subject today.

I don't recall saying that THIS incident involved a basketball player...nor am I saying it didn't. I know what I've heard (and what others have heard) about both incidents through a number of different folks and will merely say that because of privacy laws, etc, many details do not get into the press. It's a shame that these student athletes, the alleged female victims, and the university are going through this but the actions the university took (or in actions in this case) are the reason why.  

In no judgement against the alleged victim, but she always had the opportunity to go to the authorities herself, so to say that MPD couldn't do their job b/c of MU is a bit of a reach, no?

[Clarence]

Yup--Itll settle out. In the abstract you are right about post incident investigations/handling usually lacking a nexus to a victim's emotional distress. Note here, however, the trib outlines her distress, specifically about the way it was handled---she is being well coached for the bigger bucks. By the timeline in the trib...she even left school after the interviews, and as her distress overcame her...get out the check. lol

Its odd, but even when the nexus is lacking, jurors seeing the pain/crying angst of the plaintiff/victim often have little problem filling in facts/causation to hold the institutional defendant in the chair liable--guess they feel the need to feed the pain. In fact, the best Plaintiffs tact is to drop the accused individual, before trial, to prevent 2 individual competing stories, to ensure the victims is the only one heard by the jury and leaving the institution (who wasnt there when it happened) to try to fade the heat on the defense.

I have defended exactly this scenario, ..its tough...and yes, we settled out.

Which makes the whole thing so dumb on the part of Marquette.  Why even open yourself up to any of this B.S.   Public Safety should provide security and only security.  Leave the police work to the police.  

[2TimeWarrior]

4) Finally, what happened at MU is what happens when night watchmen or "rent-a-cops" become policemen. Yes, they need better training. But their job is not to be Milwaukee Policemen, or their extension. I'd like to think they could do a better job, but the fact is Marquette probably failed to effectvely train them. One interesting note though, is why did the athletic department know? Did they do a better job of training? I'll bet so!

This is a ridiculous comment.  First, you are assuming that the story reported in the Tribune is what was told the DPS Officers.  I am confident that every DPS Officer knows the elements of a sexual assault and if approached the facts from the Tribune article with call it a sexual assault.  You'd be suprised how much training DPS does and how educated most of its officers are.

As to your comment about what the athletic department knew, I'm not sure what you mean.  The only reason the athletic department knew anything was because they were likely informed by DPS.

Don't put this on DPS.  The policies of DPS were well known by MPD and the DA.  The only reason that this has become an issue is because of the high profile parties.  MPD and the DA stood idly by for years knwoing full well that DPS was not reporting every crime to them.  They wanted as much handled in house at MU as possible to avoid an extra burden on them.