Bradley Center / MU

[ChicosBailBonds]

here's a study done by Memphis regarding the economic impact of an NBA franchise.  They show about $223 million annually.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/oct/04/net-gain-for-memphis/

First, note who commissioned the study.  That's the problem with most of these, they are commissioned by someone to have a desired outcome.  It's like the dairy assosciation commissioning a study that drinking milk is good for you.

Almost always those economic impact studies for stadiums or sporting events end up being total BS.  We were involved in a bunch of these analyses over the years from firms like the Bonham Group, AEG, etc, etc.  Same as the ones pols use to justify choo choo trains and all kinds of other nonsense and then when they don't pan out 10 to 15 years later they don't care or say so what, it's built...too bad.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/commentary/show/975.html

http://weeklypress.com/billion-and-counting-for-states-taxpayerfunded-stadiums-p2168-1.htm

[Hards Alumni]

First, note who commissioned the study.  That's the problem with most of these, they are commissioned by someone to have a desired outcome.  It's like the dairy assosciation commissioning a study that drinking milk is good for you.

Almost always those economic impact studies for stadiums or sporting events end up being total BS.  We were involved in a bunch of these analyses over the years from firms like the Bonham Group, AEG, etc, etc.  Same as the ones pols use to justify choo choo trains and all kinds of other nonsense and then when they don't pan out 10 to 15 years later they don't care or say so what, it's built...too bad.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/commentary/show/975.html

http://weeklypress.com/billion-and-counting-for-states-taxpayerfunded-stadiums-p2168-1.htm

I am just curious as to what your solution is, Chicos.  Do you suggest that the owner pay for the new arena/stadium?  What if they can't afford it?  Should teams contract because owners can't afford to upgrade their venues?

[mu_hilltopper]

Not putting Miller Park in the downtown area -- a colossal mistake.  The current stadium site would be ideally suited for mixed use development while the city would have reaped the economic benefits of a stadium nearer downtown.  Such a shame.

Brats rule, apparently

What would have been an actual shame would be the drastic reduction in attendance Downtown Miller Park would have experienced, as the on-field product over its 10 year history has resulted in a whopping 129 games below .500.

With the Badge of Sub-Mediocrity the Brewers have sewn on their game uniforms, Miller Park is exactly where it needs to be to maintain itself.  Put that park in downtown in 2001, that team would be averaging 13,000 today.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to realize that a HUGE chunk of people at Brewers games are not there to see un-competitive baseball, and sure as hell aren't there to buy $8 beers.  

It's gotta be one of the only stadiums in MLB that has a squadron of parking lot security people kicking thousands of fans IN TO THE STADIUM night in and night out.

[mugrad2006]

It's gotta be one of the only stadiums in MLB that has a squadron of parking lot security people kicking thousands of fans IN TO THE STADIUM night in and night out.

Don't act like the same thing wouldn't be happening if the Cubs had a parking lot instead of a neighborhood of bars.

[GGGG]

Honestly, I am fine with Miller Park where it is.  Tailgating is a major part of the experience of Miller Park, and I think there would be far fewer fans at games if they couldn't tailgate.

That may be the case....and frankly I don't care.  I'd rather have less people who are willing to spend money in and out of the stadium, than more people who truck in their own beer, their own food and are too cheap to pry open their wallet during the game.

I have been to a number of the newer ballparks that were built in downtown locations and do not have tailgating (St. Louis, Cincinnati - when they were bad, San Francisco) and an NFL stadium (Indy) and the crowds showed up just fine.  Hell, if you get 16,000 downtown in winter for a basketball game, you will get crowds down there on a nice summer evening for a baseball game.

[reinko]

+1.  Plus there would probably be room for the Harley museum somewhere downtown as well...

Harley originally drew up plans, and I believe started initial construction in the building where the old Brown Bottle (what up $2 import night!!!) in Schlitz Park was on 3rd and Cherry, but don't quite remember the reason why it didn't go forward.  Was it something with the noise of bikes in a residential neighborhood??  Remember something like that...

As for Potowonami being where it's at, agree that it would have added development, but look at Detroit and St. Louis, both have downtown stadiums and casinos, and it is still DEAD in and around those areas on non-game days.  And I dunno, I love to gamble, probably a bit too much...but they tend to bring in certain elements that add a grime to the surrounding area.  Just my 2 cents.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

That may be the case....and frankly I don't care.  I'd rather have less people who are willing to spend money in and out of the stadium, than more people who truck in their own beer, their own food and are too cheap to pry open their wallet during the game.

I have been to a number of the newer ballparks that were built in downtown locations and do not have tailgating (St. Louis, Cincinnati - when they were bad, San Francisco) and an NFL stadium (Indy) and the crowds showed up just fine.  Hell, if you get 16,000 downtown in winter for a basketball game, you will get crowds down there on a nice summer evening for a baseball game.

I know what you are saying, but ultimately, having a good "game experience" will create it's own revenue with higher attendance and repeat business. Easy to park, affordable, retractable roof, good for groups/buses, etc.

You put the stadium downtown, sure, you will get 4 new bars and restaurants and some more bartenders and waitstaff jobs. Nothing wrong with those jobs and businesses, but I'm not sure it's the huge economic boon that we think it is.

It's just taking money out of the grocery/liquor stores, and putting it into a bar. I mean, how much money are we really talking about? Certainly it's not insignificant, but again, I don't think it's enough to justify the possible reduced attendance when the team goes bad. 20,000 people tailgating and shopping at the grocery store, or 6,000 stopping in for some beers before the game? (I'm just throwing out some round numbers, we obviously have no way of knowing).

Plus, there are a number of bars relatively close to Miller park that provide free shuttles, so there is still some economic benefits to the ballpark.

I guess for me, the tailgating and current location are part of the charm of the Brewers that make them somewhat unique. Most cities have urban stadiums now, which I'm sure the politicians and businesses love, but I'm not sure the fans love it that much.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Why would Mark Cuban, or anyone else, spend hundreds of millions on a team only to turn it into a non-profit???

Certainly no owner is going to do it right now, but this era of disposable stadiums and "increased revenue streams" isn't going to last forever.

Public tax dollars can't keep feeding the beast. The business model is going to have to change.

Maybe instead of publicly financing new buildings, the owners could change their own business model to provide themselves and their corporations with increased tax benefits. Like I said, creativity is going to have to be part of the answer, not just blackmailing the city/state for a new arena.

At the end of the day, the team and the city/state are in a weird partnership to make $. The owner depends upon a profitable product, and that new profit model is based upon a publicly funded building. If the owner can't get a stadium to make the team profitable, he'll move the team.

I realize that public tax dollars pay for a lot of things (theaters, art museum, etc.)... but these stadium deals are directly profiting private ownership groups, not public entities.

[Ari Gold]

That may be the case....and frankly I don't care.  I'd rather have less people who are willing to spend money in and out of the stadium, than more people who truck in their own beer, their own food and are too cheap to pry open their wallet during the game.

I have been to a number of the newer ballparks that were built in downtown locations and do not have tailgating (St. Louis, Cincinnati - when they were bad, San Francisco) and an NFL stadium (Indy) and the crowds showed up just fine.  Hell, if you get 16,000 downtown in winter for a basketball game, you will get crowds down there on a nice summer evening for a baseball game.

I'm torn between thinking you're an angry old ass who doesn't like it when people have fun for under $8 per beer or a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum because he doesn't want to tailgate.

either way, I'm glad a person like you wasnt involved in the location of Miller park.
there's nothing like getting a good baseball drunk on, grilling and hanging out at the game. Who cares if I don't get in til the top of the 2nd sometimes. I know I won't convince you but tailgating at Miller park is party of the experience. Hell it's kinda fun to just go and walk around the parking lot before a game

[GGGG]

I just had a thought regarding the Bucks.

I wonder if Herb could be talked into leaving the Bucks in his estate, or even donating them during his lifetime, to a public charity of some sort.  The sole purpose of the charity would be to build a new arena for the City of Milwaukee.  Then when the new owner purchases the team, the charity would have the funds to construct the arena.

This of course means that he wouldn't have the $$ to give to family, or to other interests via his estate...but it might be the best way to keep the Bucks in the city.

[GGGG]

I'm torn between thinking you're an angry old ass who doesn't like it when people have fun for under $8 per beer or a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum because he doesn't want to tailgate.

either way, I'm glad a person like you wasnt involved in the location of Miller park.
there's nothing like getting a good baseball drunk on, grilling and hanging out at the game. Who cares if I don't get in til the top of the 2nd sometimes. I know I won't convince you but tailgating at Miller park is party of the experience. Hell it's kinda fun to just go and walk around the parking lot before a game

I think your post helps my argument quite nicely...thank you.

The problem with the Brewers is that they have too often catered to the fan such as yourself.

[🏀]

I think your post helps my argument quite nicely...thank you.

The problem with the Brewers is that they have too often catered to the fan such as yourself.

Nicely done.

[mugrad2006]

I think your post helps my argument quite nicely...thank you.

The problem with the Brewers is that they have too often catered to the fan such as yourself.

How would catering to a different fan base make the team any better from a competitive standpoint?  You admit it wouldn't improve attendance.  It definitely wouldn't improve revenue from apparel or boost viewership needed for a better TV contract. 

The team is regularly uncompetitive because it's a small market team that has made a bunch of bad personnel decisions over the years.  When you're a small market team, there's just no margin for error. 

I fail to understand why tailgating fans at a Brewers game are 'not real fans' while tailgating fans at a Bears or Packers game , or those getting warmed up at the Cubby Bear are just doing it as 'part of the experience'.

[GGGG]

Hold on...why are you using quotes?  I never said that tailgating fans are "not real fans."  Knowing Milwaukee, they undoubtedly are great fans.  I have absolutely nothing against the fans who go there to tailgate.  (I'm not the one who starting throwing insults around either.)

The issue I have always had with Miller Park is that, if you are going to use the "stimulate the economy" excuse to build a stadium, then it was built in the wrong location.  That's all.

[MerrittsMustache]

How would catering to a different fan base make the team any better from a competitive standpoint?  You admit it wouldn't improve attendance.  It definitely wouldn't improve revenue from apparel or boost viewership needed for a better TV contract. 

You think that catering to the "young, cheap and drunk" market segment would bring in more revenue than catering to the "established with some money" segment?

[reinko]

I have an idea!  Let's overly exaggerate each other's position on this manner, then rip it apart and call it dumb.

[Skatastrophy]

Hold on...why are you using quotes?  I never said that tailgating fans are "not real fans."  Knowing Milwaukee, they undoubtedly are great fans.  I have absolutely nothing against the fans who go there to tailgate.  (I'm not the one who starting throwing insults around either.)

The issue I have always had with Miller Park is that, if you are going to use the "stimulate the economy" excuse to build a stadium, then it was built in the wrong location.  That's all.

I think the argument for Miller Park is that between the stadium and Potowatomi it could help to revitalize the Menomonee valley (as opposed to a more general economic stimulation)... which hasn't happened yet. 

[MUMac]

I have an idea!  Let's overly exaggerate each other's position on this manner, then rip it apart and call it dumb.

This has to be the dumbest post ever.  Calling everyone who ever posted on Scoop dumb, come on now.

[Ari Gold]

You think that catering to the "young, cheap and drunk" market segment would bring in more revenue than catering to the "established with some money" segment?

Wouldn't you say the brewers cater to both? Tickets range anywhere from $10 to $100 plus cheaper online?

[Aughnanure]

First, note who commissioned the study.  That's the problem with most of these, they are commissioned by someone to have a desired outcome.  It's like the dairy assosciation commissioning a study that drinking milk is good for you.

Almost always those economic impact studies for stadiums or sporting events end up being total BS.  We were involved in a bunch of these analyses over the years from firms like the Bonham Group, AEG, etc, etc.  Same as the ones pols use to justify choo choo trains and all kinds of other nonsense and then when they don't pan out 10 to 15 years later they don't care or say so what, it's built...too bad.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/commentary/show/975.html

http://weeklypress.com/billion-and-counting-for-states-taxpayerfunded-stadiums-p2168-1.htm

+1

[mu_hilltopper]

Don't act like the same thing wouldn't be happening if the Cubs had a parking lot instead of a neighborhood of bars.

Are you sure?  Wrigley has an allure far greater than Miller Park.  It's unknown whether, given the choice of hanging out in a parking lot outside Wrigley would be chosen over actually going into the stadium itself.  Obviously, some would choose that, but how many?

For Miller Park, for thousands of fans, that answer is known.

[MUBurrow]

Are you sure?  Wrigley has an allure far greater than Miller Park.  It's unknown whether, given the choice of hanging out in a parking lot outside Wrigley would be chosen over actually going into the stadium itself.  Obviously, some would choose that, but how many?

For Miller Park, for thousands of fans, that answer is known.

In Wrigley, the outfield bleachers would be like baseball in LA. Show up in the 3rd, leave in the 7th.

[MerrittsMustache]

In Wrigley, the outfield bleachers would be like baseball in LA. Show up in the 3rd, leave in the 7th.

Highly unlikely since the bleachers are general admission and typically packed at least 90 minutes prior to the game.

[MerrittsMustache]

Wouldn't you say the brewers cater to both? Tickets range anywhere from $10 to $100 plus cheaper online?

Fair enough. The Brewers do some to attract families but the location of the stadium was catered to the young and drunk fanbase who likes to drink on the cheap. I know several Brewers fans who once fit into that demographic but they've grown up, gotten married and had children - children who they won't take to Miller Park because it becomes an obnoxious drunkfest far too often for their liking. Sure, there would still be drunk people if the stadium was downtown but I doubt it would be anywhere near as bad as it can get in a tailgating atmosphere.

[77ncaachamps]

Though it may not solve the location issue, winning solves a lot of things: attendance, concession sales, small business profits, etc.

When the SF Giants were hot last year, EVERYWHERE you went was black and orange. SF loves its team but when the push for the playoffs and championship were on, the love extended to the rest of the bay because winning = $$$.

When the Brewers turn things around, the people and $$$ will follow.

But let's face it: Milwaukee and WI are football first, then basketball, then hockey, then baseball.