Jerel in NBADL Finals

[DJO's Pump Fake]

1st team all big east
2nd team all american
big east defensive player of the year

I'd say that's a great college player

[MUfan12]

Here is the problem with your statement...he was not a "great college player."  He barely cracked the top 100 in a couple of the kenpom efficiency categories.  I mean, he was ranked 493rd in offensive efficiency.

Which is why games are played on the court and not a computer monitor.

Jerel was a great player at MU. His resume backs that up.

[GGGG]

Which is why games are played on the court and not a computer monitor.

Yeah, didn't think people could put together a coherent response to that point either.  But I didn't think that people would break out the "computer statistics are irrelevent" after only 13 minutes.

1st team all big east
2nd team all american
big east defensive player of the year

I'd say that's a great college player

Or an overrated one....which is what I think he was.

[DJO's Pump Fake]

After looking back at it, he was the ONLY guard on the 1st team all BE, arguments could be made that he was THE best guard in the BE since he was the only one to make 1st team all BE.

For whatever reason, you resort to computer numbers to try and discount jerel's career, when the proof is in the MU record books.

1st in scoring obviously
1st in steals
1st in games played

most versatile, durable player we had since Dwade.

And what about the one game he didn't play?  WE SCORED 47 POINTS!

[Silkk the Shaka]

Really?  McNeal came at a time when we were reeling from two consecutive NIT seasons and helped put us on the map in the Big East.  He always played hard and gave our team an attitude.  Jerel was an all-decade player at MU.  If you can't appreciate the positives he brought, you're a spoiled fan.

In no particular order:
Wade
Diener
Novak
James
McNeal
Matthews
Hayward
Butler
RJax
and then.... (who do you put in the 10th slot?  Maybe DJO for the year he had last year?)

It's not debatable at all that he was a top 5-7 player for MU during the strongest decade in our history since the 70's.  An argument can be made that he was #2.  What more do people want from him?

[MarquetteFan94]

Buzz was @ the game:

Vipers vs. Energy: Gm 2

Very cool that Buzz was there....not sure how many college coaches travel to watch a former player in the DLeague.  Also impressed that they had over 14k at the game.

[Skatastrophy]

Jerel's the focus of an ESPN Chicago blog:  http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/colleges/post/_/id/2828/mcneals-risk-paying-off-in-quest-for-nba

[GGGG]

First of all, accumlation statistics are just accumulation statistics.  They speak to his durability and the consistency of his career.  That is indeed something.  But the reason he is the leading scorer, is because he played in the most games, and took the most shots in MU basketball history.

However, he was simply not a "great college basketball player."  I mean, he was not even the best defender we had on that team (James) but because he got a lot of steals, people got the impression that he was some sort of defensive wizard.

The use of "computer numbers" is important because it takes emotion out of the equation.  It also takes out the use of "accumulation statistics" that are generally around because a player has played more.  They balance out the negative with the positives.  I mean, my guess is that he is MU's all time turnover leader too.  (I can't find it.)

Look, I am coming off as sounding way too negative.  I think Jerel was a fine player...but I thought he was overated at the time and continue to do so.  I thought Matthews was better, and in some aspects of the game, James too.

[DJO's Pump Fake]

You can make the same argument about the Turnovers as you are trying to make about the points and other accolades

He played in more games and that's why he has more turnovers....I think it is a terrible argument, but I guess we just have to let our opinions differ.

I would like to see you rank MU's players in the past decade like jamailman did.

Here's mine:

Wade
McNeal
Novak
Matthews
Hayward
James
Diener
Butler
DJO
RJAX

[Silkk the Shaka]

First of all, accumlation statistics are just accumulation statistics.  They speak to his durability and the consistency of his career.  That is indeed something.  But the reason he is the leading scorer, is because he played in the most games, and took the most shots in MU basketball history.

However, he was simply not a "great college basketball player."  I mean, he was not even the best defender we had on that team (James) but because he got a lot of steals, people got the impression that he was some sort of defensive wizard.

The use of "computer numbers" is important because it takes emotion out of the equation.  It also takes out the use of "accumulation statistics" that are generally around because a player has played more.  They balance out the negative with the positives.  I mean, my guess is that he is MU's all time turnover leader too.  (I can't find it.)

Look, I am coming off as sounding way too negative.  I think Jerel was a fine player...but I thought he was overated at the time and continue to do so.  I thought Matthews was better, and in some aspects of the game, James too.

Then take every MU player's best season of the last decade.  McNeal's senior season was only surpassed by Wade.  You can say Novak, Diener, and Hayward came close, but McNeal's was #2.

[GGGG]

Then take every MU player's best season of the last decade.  McNeal's senior season was only surpassed by Wade.  You can say Novak, Diener, and Hayward came close, but McNeal's was #2.

I thought Wes Matthews was better than Jerel in 2009.  Better all around player, better rebounder, more efficient scorer.  (Who almost matched Jerel in ppg by the way.)

[Hards Alumni]

I thought Wes Matthews was better than Jerel in 2009.  Better all around player, better rebounder, more efficient scorer.  (Who almost matched Jerel in ppg by the way.)

You also have to take into account that during that year, teams were focusing on stopping Jerel more as well.

and Wes is a bigger guy and played more of a 3, he should get more rebounds.

[MUfan12]

How can you beat "accumulation statistics" into the ground and not acknowledge that it plays a role in the turnover numbers as well? Don't you think a guy who is a main scoring option for a good part of four years would turn the ball over more?

I'm with you on the steals/defense thing. Dominic was a far better defender. I'm not saying he didn't have faults. I still refer to the pull-up jumper straddling the three-point line as a "Jerel." But to dismiss his accomplishments because he played in a lot of games is ridiculous.

[Hards Alumni]

How can you beat "accumulation statistics" into the ground and not acknowledge that it plays a role in the turnover numbers as well? Don't you think a guy who is a main scoring option for a good part of four years would turn the ball over more?

I'm with you on the steals/defense thing. Dominic was a far better defender. I'm not saying he didn't have faults. I still refer to the pull-up jumper straddling the three-point line as a "Jerel." But to dismiss his accomplishments because he played in a lot of games is ridiculous.

Dwight Buycks used to pull a lot of "Jerels"

[MUfan12]

What more do people want from him?

Better efficiency ratings of course!

[Dr. Blackheart]

Better efficiency ratings of course!

Yeah, what does that get you?

http://kykernel.com/2011/04/03/butler-coach-brad-stevens-is-the-calm-during-the-storm/

[GGGG]

Better efficiency ratings of course!

Use teal all you want, but that is *exactly* what I wanted from Jerel.  More efficiency.

How can you beat "accumulation statistics" into the ground and not acknowledge that it plays a role in the turnover numbers as well? Don't you think a guy who is a main scoring option for a good part of four years would turn the ball over more?

I'm with you on the steals/defense thing. Dominic was a far better defender. I'm not saying he didn't have faults. I still refer to the pull-up jumper straddling the three-point line as a "Jerel." But to dismiss his accomplishments because he played in a lot of games is ridiculous.

I am dismissing them because I think they aren't as important as people make them out to be.  (The reason I brought up TO is to show how deceiving they can be.)  

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I thought Wes Matthews was better than Jerel in 2009.  Better all around player, better rebounder, more efficient scorer.  (Who almost matched Jerel in ppg by the way.)

It's a bit ironic that you use statistical efficiency to support your claim earlier, and now you are using sort of "shoot from the hip" claims like "better all around player" "better rebounder" or "better defender" (James).

I mean, those are really just eye-test claims, which is fine, but I don't think you can trot out advanced stats like efficiency, and then mix in some stuff that is so subjective. I realize stats cannot tell the whole story, but it seems like you are cherry picking some stuff here.

To be honest, I think this thread is becoming more about semantics than it is about actual player performance.

I call Jerel "great". You call him "good". Doesn't really matter either way. Maybe your version of "good" is the same as my version of "great".

McNeal was the most infuriating/exciting player MU has had in a while.

His turnovers were a problem. However, the speed and aggressiveness of his defensive and offensive game made him good.

At the risk of a violent threadjack, can we compare him a little bit to good 'ol #4? Most TDs and most interceptions. Just sayin'.

[MUfan12]

I'll bite. Take a look at Jerel's senior year vs. Wade's junior year in the advanced statistics. Damn near close to even. And Jerel had better TO numbers. And Wade's junior year was probably the best season any MU player had that decade. In fact, if you compare Wade's two seasons to Jerel's final two seasons, they're still very close.

The majority of what people disliked about Jerel came when he was a freshman and sophomore. He improved tremendously and deserved every accolade he got by the time he left.

[GGGG]

OK fine.... their senior years....

Wes had a higher offensive efficiency rating than Jerel....higher effective FG%...higher true shooting %...lower turnover rate...better offensive and defensive rebounding percentage...committed less fouls per 40...better free throw percentage and better two pt FG%.

Jerel had more steals and better 3 pt %.

Better???

[Wade for President]

Don't know if the vid was posted (I did see a poster mention it), but awesome to see Buzz at the game, giving a big hug to Jerel.

http://www.nba.com/dleague/video/2011/04/28/20110427rgviwarecapmov-1662912/index.html

That environment/atmosphere for NBDL game in Iowa, was pretty impressive.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

OK fine.... their senior years....

Wes had a higher offensive efficiency rating than Jerel....higher effective FG%...higher true shooting %...lower turnover rate...better offensive and defensive rebounding percentage...committed less fouls per 40...better free throw percentage and better two pt FG%.

Jerel had more steals and better 3 pt %.

Better???

I love Wes too.

Maybe the better semantic question is: Would you call Wes a "great" college player?

If you say "no", then I get it. If you say "yes", then I'm lost.  

[GGGG]

No I would not call Wes a "great college player."

Look, I don't want people to think I hated Jerel.  I am glad that he is doing well and hopes he makes the NBA because he definately is a hard-worker.  I just think he was a little overated as a senior.  People were asking why people rag on MU's all time leading scorer...and I thought I would address it.

[MUfan12]

EDIT- Disregard. Didn't look deep enough into the numbers.

[GGGG]

Wade was clearly more efficient than McNeal....the numbers say as much in pretty much every category.  Why would I think he was overrated?