badgers free throw shooting

[wyzgy]

they were saying that first of all, they do practice these mundane things and secondly, as a team, they line up to shoot periodically throughout practice.  if a player misses, they have to run over to bo, bow like obozo to gadafy and apologise, then do sit-ups or push-ups.  their starting five is shooting 85.5% from the stripe.
     the reason i bring this up is b/c we, as a team, have little room for error.  it's like practising free throws takes away from game planning, defense, etc and then comes crucial game time and we need them to win or seal up a victory.  i liken it to field goal kickers-never important enough to waste a top draft pick on, but how many games do they win/lose for you?? 

[TallTitan34]

FREE THROW PCT G FTM FTA Pct
1. Villanova 27 506 659 .768
2. Connecticut 26 399 543 .735
3. Georgetown 27 359 492 .730
4. Notre Dame 26 474 650 .729
5. St. John's 26 436 612 .712
6. USF 28 377 538 .701
7. Marquette 27 469 675 .695
8. West Virginia 26 408 588 .694
9. DePaul 26 347 507 .684
10. Seton Hall 27 325 476 .683
11. Providence 27 458 682 .672
12. Rutgers 26 305 457 .667
13. Pittsburgh 27 443 666 .665
14. Louisville 27 328 496 .661
15. Cincinnati 27 390 593 .658
16. Syracuse 28 389 594 .655

[GGGG]

What I want to know is, do Uw players improve their ft percentage while on campus?  Do MU's?  UW's percentage is impressive but did they come in as good shooters or did they end up better due to drills, emphasis during practice, etc.

[Tugg Speedman]

Sigh ... another FT thread????

Yes the badgers are the #1 team in the nation shooting FT.  If you think its because of their practicing them then explain this ...

             FT% (D1 Rank)
Year                        UW                MU
2011 (a/0 Feb 20)    82.6% (1)        69.5% (152)
2010                      73.2% (38)      74.1% (28)
2009                      72.6% (56)      72.8% (54)

Buzz has been the coach for three years.  Bo has been the coach for three years.  Buzz does not practice FTs.  Bo does that quite disturbing ritual you describe above.  

In 2009 and 2010, MU had a better FT% than UW.  Conclusion MU's approach was better.  In 2011 UW leads the nation, conclusion, Bo's approach is better.  Nothing has been proved.

Here's the answer ... Why did MU shoot 74% last year and 69.5% so far this year.  Answer, MU had better FT shooters last year.

Why does UW lead the nation?  Answer, they have great FT shooters, not they practice better.
What will UW do next year at the line?  Answer: probably shoot much worse.

UW FT shooting

                  FTA       FTM       FT%
Team          338        409        82.6%
Leuer           86         100       86%
Jarmusz        17         19         89.5%
Nakivil          25         29         86.21%
Taylor          119       141        84.4%
Rest             91        120        75.8%

Leuer, Nakivil and Jarmusz are seniors.  Taylor is good enough to consider coming out.  If Taylor comes out, then UW returns a 76% FT shooting team plus their recruits (which I'll assume, like all Freshman, will struggle a bit).  So, will you post next year the Bo is now dumb because they cannot shoot 83%?

Let me repeat, FT shooting has nothing to do with organized practice of it.  It's about the shooter and mental toughness.  UW has shooters that mentally tough and Bo might have turned a 81% club into a 82.6% club.  He did not take a 68% team and turn them into 83% because they have to bow and apologize to Bo when they miss.

[MikeyT42]

Great Post 84. I completely agree with everything you said.


83% is impressive, gotta tip your hat.

[StillAWarrior]

Sigh ... another FT thread????

Yes the badgers are the #1 team in the nation shooting FT.  If you think its because of their practicing them then explain this ...

             FT% (D1 Rank)
Year                        UW                MU
2011 (a/0 Feb 20)    82.6% (1)        69.5% (152)
2010                      73.2% (38)      74.1% (28)
2009                      72.6% (56)      72.8% (54)

Buzz has been the coach for three years.  Bo has been the coach for three years.  Buzz does not practice FTs.  Bo does that quite disturbing ritual you describe above.  

In 2009 and 2010, MU had a better FT% than UW.  Conclusion MU's approach was better.  In 2011 UW leads the nation, conclusion, Bo's approach is better.  Nothing has been proved.

Here's the answer ... Why did MU shoot 74% last year and 69.5% so far this year.  Answer, MU had better FT shooters last year.

Why does UW lead the nation?  Answer, they have great FT shooters, not they practice better.
What will UW do not next year at the line?  Answer: probably shoot much worse.

UW FT shooting

                  FTA       FTM       FT%
Team          338        409        82.6%
Leuer           86         100       86%
Jarmusz        17         19         89.5%
Nakivil          25         29         86.21%
Taylor          119       141        84.4%
Rest             91        120        75.8%

Leuer, Nakivil and Jarmusz are seniors.  Taylor is good enough to consider coming out.  If Taylor comes out, then UW returns a 76% FT shooting team plus their recruits (which I'll assume, like all Freshman, will struggle a bit).  So, will you post next year the Bo is now dumb because they cannot shoot 83%?

Let me repeat, FT shooting has nothing to do with organized practice of it.  It's about the shooter and mental toughness.  UW has shooters that mentally tough and Bo might have turned a 81% club into a 82.6% club.  He did not take a 68% team and turn them into 83% because they have to bow and apologize to Bo when they miss.

While I agree with a fair amount of what you said, you keep repeating that bolded part in multiple threads even though it is absurd and even though you have no support for it.  In fact, in one thread you posted a link to a study that suggested just the opposite.

Of course practicing free throws -- whether organized or not -- will improve performance (assuming, of course, that players are practicing good technique).  You're absolutely correct when you say, "it's about the shooter..."  And if the shooter practices, he'll improve.  If all the shooters practice, they all will improve.  The issue is whether it will have a big enough effect to make it worthwhile.  And I think most people on this board (including me) agree that it will not and does not justify spending much, if any, team practice time.  It's not going to turn a 70% team into an 85% team, but it will improve performance.  If Marquette opted to start spending 50% of its practice time on free throws (a stupid idea, IMO), the team would see improvement.  However, I sure as hell hope that the individual players are working on it (and other things that they need to improve) on their own time. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

While I agree with a fair amount of what you said, you keep repeating that bolded part in multiple threads even though it is absurd and even though you have no support for it.  In fact, in one thread you posted a link to a study that suggested just the opposite.

Of course practicing free throws -- whether organized or not -- will improve performance (assuming, of course, that players are practicing good technique).  You're absolutely correct when you say, "it's about the shooter..."  And if the shooter practices, he'll improve.  If all the shooters practice, they all will improve.  The issue is whether it will have a big enough effect to make it worthwhile.  And I think most people on this board (including me) agree that it will not and does not justify spending much, if any, team practice time.  It's not going to turn a 70% team into an 85% team, but it will improve performance.  If Marquette opted to start spending 50% of its practice time on free throws (a stupid idea, IMO), the team would see improvement.  However, I sure as hell hope that the individual players are working on it (and other things that they need to improve) on their own time. 

Thank you, exactly what I was going to say.  If it made no difference to practice them, coaches (Hall of Fame coaches like Wooden, Coach K, etc) wouldn't practice them.  I agree with Another that practicing them won't get a 68% team to 80%.  But if it can get a 68% team 70%, that 2% can be the difference in winning 2 or 3 more games.

At any rate, arguments on both sides.  I was always taught practicing something makes you better.  It's why PGA pros still go to the range.  It's why they still take practice putts on the practice greens.  It's why bowlers bowl constantly, etc, etc.  Free throw shooting is about muscle memory just like so many other things.  It's one area in basketball where it's all on the individual. 

[Tugg Speedman]

I assume, and it has been noted here before, that the players practice FTs quite a bit on their own.  I'm addressing the idea that we take the (NCAA) limited amount of time at organized practice time and spend it shooting FTs.  I believe Buzz is correct (or at least not wrong) in not having organized practice of FTs.

Chicos, see my other post and tell me where the extra 2% would matter.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24686.0

[hairy worthen]

Thank you, exactly what I was going to say.  If it made no difference to practice them, coaches (Hall of Fame coaches like Wooden, Coach K, etc) wouldn't practice them.  I agree with Another that practicing them won't get a 68% team to 80%.  But if it can get a 68% team 70%, that 2% can be the difference in winning 2 or 3 more games.

At any rate, arguments on both sides.  I was always taught practicing something makes you better.  It's why PGA pros still go to the range.  It's why they still take practice putts on the practice greens.  It's why bowlers bowl constantly, etc, etc.  Free throw shooting is about muscle memory just like so many other things.  It's one area in basketball where it's all on the individual.  

Exactly, it is individual, that's why they don't spend time on it as a team. They do it individually.

 Your example above stating that a freethrow % increase of 2%  will give you 2 or 3 more wins is based on what?  Is this your own belief used to support your opinion. Are you taking into consideration that if you spend practice time on freethrows that you are taking away from something else that the team could be practicing resulting in less wins.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Exactly, it is individual, that's why they don't spend time on it as a team. They do it individually.

 Your example above stating that a freethrow % increase of 2%  will give you 2 or 3 more wins is based on what?  Is this your own belief used to support your opinion. Are you taking into consideration that if you spend practice time on freethrows that you are taking away from something else that the team could be practicing resulting in less wins.

You still need bodies lining up on the key, you still need to be doing in the flow of a fast heart rate, etc.  This is why these coaches will make them go through the practice while they are in the middle of practice.

Shooting free throws by yourself, no one else on the line, heart rate is calm, is not the same as game day conditions.  Practicing them as a team isn't either, but a lot closer to reality.  It also gives the players accountability because everyone is shooting them together as a team.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I assume, and it has been noted here before, that the players practice FTs quite a bit on their own.  I'm addressing the idea that we take the (NCAA) limited amount of time at organized practice time and spend it shooting FTs.  I believe Buzz is correct (or at least not wrong) in not having organized practice of FTs.

Chicos, see my other post and tell me where the extra 2% would matter.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24686.0

Do you think Coach K, Ryan, etc are incorrect?  I'm just curious?  I responded to your post in the other thread....I disagree with your assertion that no games were cost and gave you examples.

[Tugg Speedman]

It's neither right or wrong to take time to practice FTs in an organized manner.  Either way is fine.

So, this means that Buzz is correct (or not wrong) in not practicing FTs in an organized manner.

Phil Jackson never practices them, and has not for over 20 years.  How's that worked out for him?

[WarriorHal]

I think I do whatever John Wooden did at UCLA. He seemed to have things pretty well figured out.

[GGGG]

I think I do whatever John Wooden did at UCLA. He seemed to have things pretty well figured out.

Pay his players???

[WarriorHal]

Pay his players???

I doubt he knew about that. Or at least he looked the other way and didn't want to know. I don't think there has ever been any suggestion that the off-court benefits from a certain booster was the reason why Alcindor, Walton, ect. came to UCLA. Apparently they were well taken care of once they got there, though. 

I was actually referring to practicing free throws and other basketball-related stuff.

[GGGG]

I doubt he knew about that. Or at least he looked the other way and didn't want to know. I don't think there has ever been any suggestion that the off-court benefits from a certain booster was the reason why Alcindor, Walton, ect. came to UCLA. Apparently they were well taken care of once they got there, though. 

I was actually referring to practicing free throws and other basketball-related stuff.

Yeah I know you were.  I just don't quite understand the notion that Wooden was the be-all-and-end-all of coaches and coaching philosophy. 

[Tugg Speedman]

Do you think Coach K, Ryan, etc are incorrect?  I'm just curious?  I responded to your post in the other thread....I disagree with your assertion that no games were cost and gave you examples.

   Duke      
Year   FTM   FTA   FT%
2011   458   618   74%
2010   658   871   76%
2009   658   904   73%
Total   1774   2393   74%
         
   Wisconsin      
Year   FTM   FTA   FT%
2011   338   409   83%
2010   416   568   73%
2009   423   583   73%
Total   1177   1560   75%
         
   Marquette      
Year   FTM   FTA   FT%
2011   469   675   69%
2010   489   660   74%
2009   668   918   73%
Total   1626   2253   72%

D1 average is 69%.  All three have been above average in the last three years.  Since they are all above average, the all must be doing something right.

The bigger question is why isn't Wisconsin getting to the line more?  209 times less than Duke and 264 less times than MU.  83% team average is a great asset to waste in 250 less attempts than many other teams.  So why not use it more?  Are they too slow to draw fouls?

[🏀]

The bigger question is why isn't Wisconsin getting to the line more?  209 times less than Duke and 264 less times than MU.  83% team average is a great asset to waste in 250 less attempts than many other teams.  So why not use it more?  Are they too slow to draw fouls?

To really ask that question you have to correlate that to the amount of possessions per game, which Wisconsin is drastically behind.

I'll make a quick assumption and say their average with possessions is much closer.

[Tugg Speedman]

To really ask that question you have to correlate that to the amount of possessions per game, which Wisconsin is drastically behind.

I'll make a quick assumption and say their average with possessions is much closer.

Go point ... the rank last in tempo among 345 teams.  Is this an argument for turning up the tempo?  More possession means more trips to the line?