collapse

* Stud of Colorado Game

Tyler Kolek

21 points, 5 rebounds,
11 assists, 1 steal,
40 minutes

2023-24 Season SoG Tally
Kolek11
Ighodaro6
Jones, K.6
Mitchell2
Jones, S.1
Joplin1

'22-23
'21-22 * '20-21 * '19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

2024 Coaching Carousel by rocket surgeon
[Today at 05:40:06 PM]


2024 Transfer Portal by Scoop Snoop
[Today at 05:36:13 PM]


2024 NCAA Tournament Thread by Frenns Liquor Depot
[Today at 04:57:21 PM]


Sweet 16 presser by MuMark
[Today at 04:40:13 PM]


Dallas bars tonite by BrewCity83
[Today at 04:40:04 PM]


Where is Marquette? by Dr. Blackheart
[Today at 04:38:52 PM]


10 years after “Done Deal” … It’s Happening! by The Sultan of Semantics
[Today at 03:24:51 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: NC State

Marquette
81
Marquette vs

NC State

Date/Time: Mar 29, 2024, 6:09 pm
TV: CBS
Schedule for 2023-24
Colorado
77

Author Topic: Is MU Nation Melting Down?  (Read 53430 times)

warthog-driver

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1571
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2011, 05:55:21 PM »
You left out a minor note that we were playing in C-USA and the GMC with Deane.  Our losses were to teams like TCU, East Carolina, SLU, etc.  Not UConn, Pitt, ND, etc. Deane also was about 20 years Buzz's elder and set in his way.  Buzz has done a great job overall given everything, but has plenty of room to grow as a coach.  He seems to be intelligent and does a bit of self-reflection, so I imagine he will improve quite a bit... he's only been here for 2.5 years.

Now, if we want to compare Night Life skills The Dancin' Deano was right up there with Huggins, Pitino, The Fredster, etc...Barrel Chested Two Fisted Denizens of the Dark who prowled the Night Streets in search of Excitement and Pleasure. We had a treasure in Mike Deane, a Man who lived life on his terms and brabbed for the gusto at every opportunity. Little did we know how blessed we truly were

Tugg Speedman

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8836
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2011, 05:58:17 PM »
And I do think there is a chance of that happening due to this year's freshman class being full of "misses."  It's hard for a coach to be successful when an entire freshman class has performed below expectations.   And just as MU took a big hit with the loss of Lazar this season, next year another top player leaves with Butler.  If people couldn't figure out who was "the guy, the leader" this season, who is it next year?  DJO by default?

Think back two years ago.  Cubbie and Acker's junior year. They largely rode the bench but came up huge for us one year later.

Buzz always says you make your biggest jump between freshman and sophomore year.  So we'll see.

To answer your question as to who is the best of the next year's sophomores.  The answer is Jamil Wilson.  Further, we will probably start two sophomores next year, Vander and Wilson.

How is a Freshman class that produces two starters Sophomore year a bust?

MUBasketball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 503
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2011, 06:00:55 PM »
Don't know about "melting down by MU nation", but I do know that our favorite team has had some melt downs recently. Louisville, ND, UConn.

The posters on this board are passionate and want the team to win. "Bashing 19 year old kids"? Not sure what you mean by that. If people see a student athlete not playing well and critique it, is that "bashing"? If the Coach does not seem to be getting the job done up to the fan expectations and is criticized for some of his decisions, does that mean his popularity is at an all time low? Remember, that Coach is in one of the premier conferences and is getting paid huge dollars, so being critical of losses by the fan base goes with the territory.

Could you please explain these meltdowns you speak of? Louisville sucked, yes. It truly was a perfect storm though. That's a once in a blue moon finish. @ ND? So losing a lead on the road is unacceptable? With 20 minutes to play? So you bash getting outscored 14 in the 2nd half, but show no appreciation for being up 9 after the first 20? So he's a great coach for half the game, and a moron the other?

And maybe he's not living up to SOME fans expectations because THOSE fans expectations are unrealistic. This team was projected bottom half of the league this year. They were last year, and look how they did. It was a pretty special year, definitely overachieved. Have you forgotten already? It's pretty unrealistic to expect the team to overachieve EVERY year.

Get a f*cking grip. Have some perspective.

Stretchdeltsig

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3192
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2011, 06:11:28 PM »
MUBasketball -  Disagree.  You play to win.  We don't need 80 great players like football.  We just need 10 very good players and a good coach to win.  This is not little league.  This is the Big East. We have to play hard.  We have to recruit the best talent.  And we have to coach smart to win.  Let's do it.

warriors1965

  • Scholarship Player
  • **
  • Posts: 74
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2011, 06:19:30 PM »
Could you please explain these meltdowns you speak of? Louisville sucked, yes. It truly was a perfect storm though. That's a once in a blue moon finish. @ ND? So losing a lead on the road is unacceptable? With 20 minutes to play? So you bash getting outscored 14 in the 2nd half, but show no appreciation for being up 9 after the first 20? So he's a great coach for half the game, and a moron the other?

And maybe he's not living up to SOME fans expectations because THOSE fans expectations are unrealistic. This team was projected bottom half of the league this year. They were last year, and look how they did. It was a pretty special year, definitely overachieved. Have you forgotten already? It's pretty unrealistic to expect the team to overachieve EVERY year.

Get a f*cking grip. Have some perspective.

Most people, including myself, have been very complimentary about Buzz coming up with a good initial gameplan.  The problem arises in the second-half when adjustments have been made by the opposing coach and Buzz becomes helpless in response.  I certainly don't see the UCONN game as a meltdown, but when Calhoun made the late-game adjustment in defending Butler, Buzz was clueless in coming up with a counter.

And it isn't just on the road that MU had meltdowns.  They collapsed vs Washington on a neutral court in the NCAA's, as well.

Marquette84

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1905
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2011, 07:09:18 PM »

To answer your question as to who is the best of the next year's sophomores.  The answer is Jamil Wilson.  Further, we will probably start two sophomores next year, Vander and Wilson.


Actually, if we base it off of freshman year performance, its probably Blue.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?p2=vander-blue&p1=jamil-wilson

4everwarriors

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 15995
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2011, 07:30:17 PM »
no melting here.  actually got a few more inches of snow.



That's good. I heard you could use a few more inches.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 07:40:18 PM by 4everwarriors »
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

willie warrior

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9472
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2011, 07:34:48 PM »
Could you please explain these meltdowns you speak of? Louisville sucked, yes. It truly was a perfect storm though. That's a once in a blue moon finish. @ ND? So losing a lead on the road is unacceptable? With 20 minutes to play? So you bash getting outscored 14 in the 2nd half, but show no appreciation for being up 9 after the first 20? So he's a great coach for half the game, and a moron the other?

And maybe he's not living up to SOME fans expectations because THOSE fans expectations are unrealistic. This team was projected bottom half of the league this year. They were last year, and look how they did. It was a pretty special year, definitely overachieved. Have you forgotten already? It's pretty unrealistic to expect the team to overachieve EVERY year.

Get a f*cking grip. Have some perspective.
i have a grip and perspective. You tyry the same. MU has not leld leads in the 2nd half against Louisville, ND, and UConn. Three of the last 4 games played. Buzz is getting paid big dollars and we are starting to fade big time. I do not expect them to overachieve. I expect them to compete for BEast titles, get into the dance and ocassionally advance deep. None of that is happening. You get some perspective!
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind.

Golden Avalanche

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3163
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2011, 08:45:06 PM »
Could you please explain these meltdowns you speak of? Louisville sucked, yes. It truly was a perfect storm though. That's a once in a blue moon finish. @ ND? So losing a lead on the road is unacceptable? With 20 minutes to play? So you bash getting outscored 14 in the 2nd half, but show no appreciation for being up 9 after the first 20? So he's a great coach for half the game, and a moron the other?

And maybe he's not living up to SOME fans expectations because THOSE fans expectations are unrealistic. This team was projected bottom half of the league this year. They were last year, and look how they did. It was a pretty special year, definitely overachieved. Have you forgotten already? It's pretty unrealistic to expect the team to overachieve EVERY year.

Get a f*cking grip. Have some perspective.

I think the ND loss is tough to take because they had a nine point lead at halftime on a team they absolutely dominated 10 days earlier. Thoroughly outplayed the Irish for three halves. That should result in two wins.

The issue began when they started to meltdown in games they absolutely had to win: @ Vandy; @ Ville, @ ND, UConn. Its not just points; its blowing it when it gets tight. In all the games I mentioned they buckled under pressure. The cumulative effect of that is the frustration we see today.

Finally, I disagree with the bolded. In fact, that's pretty much what MU has done in the Big East: overachieve. I believe in only one season did they finish worse than projected and that was when they finished 5th after being predicted to finish 4th. So, its not unrealistic in the slightest.

TJ

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1764
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2011, 01:00:02 AM »
Finally, I disagree with the bolded. In fact, that's pretty much what MU has done in the Big East: overachieve. I believe in only one season did they finish worse than projected and that was when they finished 5th after being predicted to finish 4th. So, its not unrealistic in the slightest.
I'll further that by saying that it is realistic if the "experts" continue to underestimate us year in and year out.  There was no reason to predict MU as low as they were predicted last year, and this year was just as bad a prediction (even if our record doesn't show it yet).  MU just needs to keep being consistent and let the "experts" underestimate us and tell the world that we "overachieve".

MUBasketball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 503
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2011, 05:39:50 AM »
i have a grip and perspective. You tyry the same. MU has not leld leads in the 2nd half against Louisville, ND, and UConn. Three of the last 4 games played. Buzz is getting paid big dollars and we are starting to fade big time. I do not expect them to overachieve. I expect them to compete for BEast titles, get into the dance and ocassionally advance deep. None of that is happening. You get some perspective!

Quit being a crybaby. They lost some games. Welcome to the Big East.

The bolded/underlined part makes absolutely no sense. You don't expect them to overachieve? Yet this team which was picked bottom half of the league (and if you look at it objectively....what a concept....is accurate given the huge number of new guys) you expect to not have a down year and still expect them to compete for the title this year? That's just silly. Unrealistic expectations. What coach could deliver on those expectations this year?

My whole point is each team goes through cycles, peaks and valleys. Hell 'ole Roy had Carolina in the NIT last year. Every year there are traditionally strong programs in the NIT, IT HAPPENS. I mean....THINK!!!!! Your sense of entitlement is sickening.

willie warrior

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9472
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2011, 06:32:08 AM »
Quit being a crybaby. They lost some games. Welcome to the Big East.

The bolded/underlined part makes absolutely no sense. You don't expect them to overachieve? Yet this team which was picked bottom half of the league (and if you look at it objectively....what a concept....is accurate given the huge number of new guys) you expect to not have a down year and still expect them to compete for the title this year? That's just silly. Unrealistic expectations. What coach could deliver on those expectations this year?

My whole point is each team goes through cycles, peaks and valleys. Hell 'ole Roy had Carolina in the NIT last year. Every year there are traditionally strong programs in the NIT, IT HAPPENS. I mean....THINK!!!!! Your sense of entitlement is sickening.
Sorry--I did not do the uinderscore. By the way Pal, when you cannot argue facts, start the namecalling whichnd buy your gobbledegook. Sorry. Now I will move on.
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind.

MauraDay

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #62 on: January 28, 2011, 10:27:22 AM »
I think that the "meltdowns" are a result of unrealistic expectations, and maybe those expectations are there because of last year's over-performing team. Because last year's team over-performed to such a great extent, some of us just assumed that this year's team would do the same. This year's team just isn't good enough, imho, and, doesn't have the "magic" of last year's team to exceed expectations.


TJ

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1764
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #63 on: January 28, 2011, 01:03:34 PM »
I think that the "meltdowns" are a result of unrealistic expectations, and maybe those expectations are there because of last year's over-performing team. Because last year's team over-performed to such a great extent, some of us just assumed that this year's team would do the same. This year's team just isn't good enough, imho, and, doesn't have the "magic" of last year's team to exceed expectations.
I don't think last year's team over-performed.  I think they performed appropriately to their talent level and exceeded some unrealistically low expectations.

This year's team seems to be under-performing to their talent this point, but only because the W's aren't there to go along with how well they've played most of the time.  Hopefully they turn it around and some of these games go the other way and I can type something different at the end of the year.

Badgerhater

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 979
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #64 on: January 28, 2011, 01:32:31 PM »
With regard to significant D-1 playing time:

DJO is a sophomore
Crowder is a frosh
Otule is a frosh
Butler is a junior
Caddy is a frosh
Buycks is a sophomore
Fulce is a sophomore
Then you have our traditional frosh and sophs

In essence, while we are graduating two players at the end of the year, we have no seniors on this team in the mold of the 3 Amigos and Hayward (that is not a knock on Butler or Fulce or any of the leaders on this team)

Unfortunately, we won't get a full four years out of these guys.  That is what happens when you have to rebuild your team when left with an empty bench and use JUCOs as filler to get you by until your main recruiting classes kick in.  Most basketball teams take several steps back after a coaching change, the fact that we are a upper-middle-of-the-pack BE team during this period is a very good thing that we must not lose sight of.

I think most of us realists are seeing this season turn out as expected.  Lots of season left to play with lots of very winnable games.  Next year is when the fun really begins because MU is in an overall talent upswing, albeit talent that requires seasoning.  Get in any tournament and this team can potentially have a good ride.

Also, the 3 Amigos were once young, inexperience players too.  However, they had the benefit of having a senior on the team who was a pivotal part of a Final Four team.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 01:38:41 PM by Badgerhater »

Marquette84

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1905
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #65 on: January 28, 2011, 04:08:05 PM »
With regard to significant D-1 playing time:

DJO is a sophomore
Crowder is a frosh
Otule is a frosh
Butler is a junior
Caddy is a frosh
Buycks is a sophomore
Fulce is a sophomore
Then you have our traditional frosh and sophs

In essence, while we are graduating two players at the end of the year, we have no seniors on this team in the mold of the 3 Amigos and Hayward (that is not a knock on Butler or Fulce or any of the leaders on this team)

Unfortunately, we won't get a full four years out of these guys.  That is what happens when you have to rebuild your team when left with an empty bench and use JUCOs as filler to get you by until your main recruiting classes kick in.  Most basketball teams take several steps back after a coaching change, the fact that we are a upper-middle-of-the-pack BE team during this period is a very good thing that we must not lose sight of.

I think most of us realists are seeing this season turn out as expected.  Lots of season left to play with lots of very winnable games.  Next year is when the fun really begins because MU is in an overall talent upswing, albeit talent that requires seasoning.  Get in any tournament and this team can potentially have a good ride.

Also, the 3 Amigos were once young, inexperience players too.  However, they had the benefit of having a senior on the team who was a pivotal part of a Final Four team.

If number of years of significant D1 experience matters, how is next year going to be better?

DJO will be a Junior
Crowder a soph
Otule a soph
Blue a soph
Wilson a soph (really more like a frosh+, since he played at a school that really wasn't D1-quality)
Cadougan a soph.
Jones, Gardner & Williams will still be frosh.
Plus our incoming freshmen, and perhaps an incoming JUCO or two.

We will have just one player that has more than one season of significant D1 experience.





ATL MU Warrior

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2775
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #66 on: January 29, 2011, 01:40:31 PM »
I'll further that by saying that it is realistic if the "experts" continue to underestimate us year in and year out.  There was no reason to predict MU as low as they were predicted last year, and this year was just as bad a prediction (even if our record doesn't show it yet).  MU just needs to keep being consistent and let the "experts" underestimate us and tell the world that we "overachieve".
Really?

You think losing four seniors (three of whom were 4-year starters no less) who accounted for 64% of the teams scoring the year before isn't a reason to predict a drastic drop off in performance? 

ATL MU Warrior

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2775
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #67 on: January 29, 2011, 01:46:34 PM »
Sorry--I did not do the uinderscore. By the way Pal, when you cannot argue facts, start the namecalling whichnd buy your gobbledegook. Sorry. Now I will move on.
Willie,

He is arguing facts.  You are completely unrealistic in your expectations for the program at the current time.  If you do not understand why, then I am afraid no one is going to be able to help you get there. 

Marquette84

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1905
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #68 on: January 29, 2011, 02:21:03 PM »
Really?

You think losing four seniors (three of whom were 4-year starters no less) who accounted for 64% of the teams scoring the year before isn't a reason to predict a drastic drop off in performance? 

I thought I adequately explained it above but let me repeat for you:

1.  We had returning player in Hayward who was equally as good (if not better) than Matthews was as a junior--and with similar development could be counted on to approximate Matthew's performance.

2.  We had a reserve in Butler who had demonstrated that he was among the best offensive players in NCAA--statistically speaking possibly better than McNeal.  If he merely extended his stats when receiving the additional minutes made available by the departing seniors would approximate McNeal's performance.

3.  We had a returning PG in Acker who had demonstrated a high degree of proficiency (2.5 assist to turnover ratio and 38% 3FG%) against eight teams--5 of which were arguably as tough or tougher than any competition we were likely to face the following year.

4.  We had two first team JUCO AAs coming in in DJO and Buycks, who based on the typical performance of other first team JUCO AAs moving up to D1 level, should have been counted on to provide strong minutes, scoring and team contributions.

Was I wrong on any of these assumptions?  No.

Were any of them unreasonable?  I don't think so, but you'll have to tell me why you think so.  Which ones were unreasonable?  

To address your point on what we lost--well, if we had lost 64% of our scoring, but had nobody on the bench set to move up, and no good recruits coming on board, perhaps you would have had a point.  

But as I saw it, we had a very strong core of returning players enhanced by a very strong recruiting class of replacements coming in.

If you believe that any of my four assumptions were off base, I think its high time for you to explain why.  Stop telling me who left the team.  Tell me why you thought the players we had weren't capable of getting the job done.  Tell me why you thought Hayward couldn't step up.  Tell me why you thought Butler's offensive performacne would regress.  Tell me why you didn't think Acker would continue to play well.  

I really want to know whether you really thought our returning and incoming players would regress and/or be busts, or whether you honestly didn't take a close look at them.

Yes, I know exactly what we lost.  

The question is whether you knew what we had returning and what we had coming on board.


Fred Garvin

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1432
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #69 on: January 29, 2011, 04:19:57 PM »
MU Nation now starts to solidify!

El Duderino

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2011, 06:44:02 PM »
i have a grip and perspective. You tyry the same. MU has not leld leads in the 2nd half against Louisville, ND, and UConn. Three of the last 4 games played. Buzz is getting paid big dollars and we are starting to fade big time. I do not expect them to overachieve. I expect them to compete for BEast titles, get into the dance and ocassionally advance deep. None of that is happening. You get some perspective!

So Marquette in your mind is a school that should be expected to make the NCAA Tournament every year?

It should be viewed as flat out unacceptable to have any seasons where things just don't go as hoped and thus MU instead ends up in the NIT?

If that is what you do believe, you have very unrealistic expectations for the Marquette basketball program because there is a very small pool of coaches and programs which do make the big dance every year.

Even many programs with a much greater tradition of success and/or a much greater home recruiting base will miss the NCAA Tournament here and there. Hell, even very storied programs like UCLA and North Carolina for example ended up in the NIT last season.

No previous MU coaches in recent history either were able to avoid years where things didn't go great and thus the result was an NIT berth or even worse. Yet, there seems to be some here who feel if Buzz doesn't lead MU to the big dance every single season, he's doing a miserable job and his job security should be strongly questioned. It's insanity.

ATL MU Warrior

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2775
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2011, 07:44:18 PM »
I thought I adequately explained it above but let me repeat for you:

1.  We had returning player in Hayward who was equally as good (if not better) than Matthews was as a junior--and with similar development could be counted on to approximate Matthew's performance.

2.  We had a reserve in Butler who had demonstrated that he was among the best offensive players in NCAA--statistically speaking possibly better than McNeal.  If he merely extended his stats when receiving the additional minutes made available by the departing seniors would approximate McNeal's performance.

3.  We had a returning PG in Acker who had demonstrated a high degree of proficiency (2.5 assist to turnover ratio and 38% 3FG%) against eight teams--5 of which were arguably as tough or tougher than any competition we were likely to face the following year.

4.  We had two first team JUCO AAs coming in in DJO and Buycks, who based on the typical performance of other first team JUCO AAs moving up to D1 level, should have been counted on to provide strong minutes, scoring and team contributions.

Was I wrong on any of these assumptions?  No.

Were any of them unreasonable?  I don't think so, but you'll have to tell me why you think so.  Which ones were unreasonable?  

To address your point on what we lost--well, if we had lost 64% of our scoring, but had nobody on the bench set to move up, and no good recruits coming on board, perhaps you would have had a point.  

But as I saw it, we had a very strong core of returning players enhanced by a very strong recruiting class of replacements coming in.

If you believe that any of my four assumptions were off base, I think its high time for you to explain why.  Stop telling me who left the team.  Tell me why you thought the players we had weren't capable of getting the job done.  Tell me why you thought Hayward couldn't step up.  Tell me why you thought Butler's offensive performacne would regress.  Tell me why you didn't think Acker would continue to play well.  

I really want to know whether you really thought our returning and incoming players would regress and/or be busts, or whether you honestly didn't take a close look at them.

Yes, I know exactly what we lost.  

The question is whether you knew what we had returning and what we had coming on board.
Do you also post under the name TJ?  I wasn't talking to you, but if you HONESTLY believe the above gibberish then by all means, please keep looking at your statistics and ignore real life where things like experience and leadership actually mean something.

Marquette84

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1905
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2011, 12:08:51 AM »
Do you also post under the name TJ?  I wasn't talking to you,

Sorry--thought you responding to my post, because I made essentially the same point.


t if you HONESTLY believe the above gibberish then by all means, please keep looking at your statistics and ignore real life where things like experience and leadership actually mean something.

Gee, there's a serious and well-thought out conter-argument.    Don't refute any of the arguments--just respond by calling it "gibberish."

The irony here is that you claim my points aren't based on the real world because I actually used REAL WORLD data!!  As if Acker, Butler and Hayward's stats from 2009 came out of fake "experience" gained in some "pretend" world that didn't actually "mean something."

And the comment on leadership is even more galling.  Apparently, you dismissed Hayward's capability to develop into a team leader or Acker ability to become a floor general. 

A year later, instead of admitting that YOU underestimated Hayward's and Acker's leadership capabilities, you're STILL trying to preserve your incorrect assessment by suggesting that they "overachieved."


TJ

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1764
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2011, 01:02:17 AM »
Really?

You think losing four seniors (three of whom were 4-year starters no less) who accounted for 64% of the teams scoring the year before isn't a reason to predict a drastic drop off in performance? 
People predicted us to be downright awful last year, and it was over the top, yes.  Lazar and Jimmy and the talent coming in should not have been predicted to be so awful, at the very least by the MU fans.  It's college sports - everybody loses players, and everyone has to rely on new faces all the time.  On top of that, Buzz brought in talented JUCO's specifically because he wanted more experience to fill into the holes, and they came out just like he expected - more ready to play than freshmen would have been.  So in summary... drop off - yes; fall off a cliff - no.

Do you really think in hindsight that the team "overachieved" that much ahead of its talent level?  22-12 (11-7), first round loss - isn't that about right for a team with an NBA 1st round pick, Jimmy, DJO, Buycks, Mo & David?

TJ

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1764
Re: Is MU Nation Melting Down?
« Reply #74 on: January 30, 2011, 01:05:47 AM »
I thought I adequately explained it above but let me repeat for you:

1.  We had returning player in Hayward who was equally as good (if not better) than Matthews was as a junior--and with similar development could be counted on to approximate Matthew's performance.

2.  We had a reserve in Butler who had demonstrated that he was among the best offensive players in NCAA--statistically speaking possibly better than McNeal.  If he merely extended his stats when receiving the additional minutes made available by the departing seniors would approximate McNeal's performance.

3.  We had a returning PG in Acker who had demonstrated a high degree of proficiency (2.5 assist to turnover ratio and 38% 3FG%) against eight teams--5 of which were arguably as tough or tougher than any competition we were likely to face the following year.

4.  We had two first team JUCO AAs coming in in DJO and Buycks, who based on the typical performance of other first team JUCO AAs moving up to D1 level, should have been counted on to provide strong minutes, scoring and team contributions.

Was I wrong on any of these assumptions?  No.

Were any of them unreasonable?  I don't think so, but you'll have to tell me why you think so.  Which ones were unreasonable?  

To address your point on what we lost--well, if we had lost 64% of our scoring, but had nobody on the bench set to move up, and no good recruits coming on board, perhaps you would have had a point.  

But as I saw it, we had a very strong core of returning players enhanced by a very strong recruiting class of replacements coming in.

If you believe that any of my four assumptions were off base, I think its high time for you to explain why.  Stop telling me who left the team.  Tell me why you thought the players we had weren't capable of getting the job done.  Tell me why you thought Hayward couldn't step up.  Tell me why you thought Butler's offensive performacne would regress.  Tell me why you didn't think Acker would continue to play well.  

I really want to know whether you really thought our returning and incoming players would regress and/or be busts, or whether you honestly didn't take a close look at them.

Yes, I know exactly what we lost.  

The question is whether you knew what we had returning and what we had coming on board.
Sorry you got yelled at for replying instead of me, but thank you for making my argument better than I did.  (Yes I've seen you make the argument before and I agreed with you then too.)

 

feedback