How did Marquette Lose?

[TillysDad]

This was the question I was receiving from randoms sitting in the sports book at Bellagio yesterday wearing my MU shirt. My simple answer was coaching.  To loss an 18 pt lead, with 4 and change to go at home, away, or on a neutral court I don't care where is inexcusable.

Which also begs the question, what do we do when need to run some clock with the lead.  Dribble hand offs, off a weave, and invariably someone takes a horrible forced jump shot from 18 plus feet.  When we see this repeatedly we have to wonder can Buzz ever learn how to manage his team in close games.  Poor usage of timeouts again.  How did he not call TO with Buycks going to the hole, hell he should have done it as soon as he crossed half court. 

Deja vu to the  Vandy game.   We don't know if we are switching or fighting thru the ball screen.  2 guys covering the same man, guy  gets an uncontested layup.  The best play we have is someone running of a curl at half court and forcing a shot, if you can even call that a shot from Jimmy.  I guess at least he threw something toward the rim.
Game management is always lacking.  No "go to" sets, no inventiveness on defense, odd substitutions as usual, poor use of timeouts, lack of time and score scenarios, etc, etc...
Buzz loves the details, the stats, but does he know or see the big picture, the simple stuff, not yet I'm afraid, and he may never get there.

[willie warrior]

+1 gazillion

[BallBoy]

To blame this loss solely on coaching is only a limited view.  This was a perfect storm of things that come together to get Louisville the victory.  Knowles got ridiculously hot.  If he didn't, the coaching wouldn't have matter. 

MU players started to play carelessly.  That included missed rebounds, turnovers, and Buycks going to hole up on with little time on the clock.  No matter how much in game coaching occurs bad turnovers and bad execution will kill you.

It was coaching, Buzz should have called a couple of timeouts to stem the Louisville tide.  There were a lot of things that he could have done but he put his best players in the game and they didn't execute.  He tried to slow the game down to chew up clock and that didn't work.

It was the crowd who was silent for 90% of the game only to go crazy down the end.  This helped the pressure. 

It was Bulter who couldn't handle the ball as he was making his way to the hoop and he had to throw up a poor shot. 

[warrior_rugby15]

How did he not call TO with Buycks going to the hole, hell he should have done it as soon as he crossed half court. 

Buzz said he was going to, but once he saw Buycks get free and cross half court he wasn't because he thought Buycks was going to eat up some more clock and then get fouled.

[BallBoy]

Also I don't think I would call out the odd substitution pattern in this game as you could in other.  10 players played today.  Of which Williams (1 minutes), Blue (5 minutes) and Gardner (2 minutes) played less than 5 minutes.  Of the remaining players, only 6 played more than 20 minutes.  Fulce had 10 minutes.  Blue was having foul trouble and wasn't playing well so I can see why he had less time on the court.  Bulter, DJO, and Buycks pretty much played the entire game (39, 37, 36 respectively).  

So in essence, Buzz had a 6-7 man rotation.  Three guys shifted across the 1, 2, 3, 4 to allow for a different line-up.  When Cadougan was in Buycks, DJO, and Butler shifted from the 1,2,3 to 2,3,4.  That was for 23 minutes.  When Otule or Fulce and Crowder were in the game then the big three played the 1, 2, 3.  

[VanderBabyBlue]

Buzz tightens up in big moments which causes his team to do the same.

[ecompt]

I also think it points to the lack of depth we have. For all the talk about we could go 10 deep this season, we're really 6 or 7 deep. Jamail is nowhere near ready for the BE and it appears Devonte isn't either. That leaves Vander, who looks more and more like a freshman in every game, and EWill, who we cannot afford to wait for anymore.

[NersEllenson]

Coaches are always the easiest scapegoat to pin a tough loss on.  Buzz is not yet perfect as a coach, nor is any coach perfect for that matter.  You can complain about us not running "sets," or you can enjoy our motion offense where the ball generally moves around rapidly.  We saw plenty of "sets" in the Crean era.  Buzz's offense is much more effective and fun to watch.  We are a Top 10 offense nationally.  Hard to complain about coaching there.

Players ultimately are the one executing.  I don't think you can put Buycks lazy pass at the 5 minute mark 35 feet from the basket to Jimmy, on Buzz.  Nor do I think you can put not calling a timeout on Buzz as Buycks crossed halfcourt with 20 seconds...as Buycks just had a brain fart..it can happen to anyone..albeit it was a bad one.  Buzz can't stop Junior from throwing a terrible ill-advised pass against the Lville press that lead to 2 points.

What Buzz could have done would be to call a timeout to stem the tide - which he really didn't.  I think he genuinely wants his guys to figure it out on their own..doesn't want them to need the "life-jacket" of him calling a timeout.  Not sure I agree with that strategy..but I do think he feels making the guys figure it out on their own breeds a certain degreee of toughness.  Buzz also could have told the guys to keep attacking, as it did appear we wnet int stall mode with about 6:30 minutes..which is still too much time in a game to do so..

All in all Buzz is a very good young coach.  He's just in Year 3, and 38 years old.  He's got a lot of time to learn and a lot of upside.

[mug644]

...
What Buzz could have done would be to call a timeout to stem the tide - which he really didn't.  I think he genuinely wants his guys to figure it out on their own..doesn't want them to need the "life-jacket" of him calling a timeout.  Not sure I agree with that strategy..but I do think he feels making the guys figure it out on their own breeds a certain degreee of toughness.  Buzz also could have told the guys to keep attacking, as it did appear we wnet int stall mode with about 6:30 minutes..which is still too much time in a game to do so..

All in all Buzz is a very good young coach.  He's just in Year 3, and 38 years old.  He's got a lot of time to learn and a lot of upside.

Do you all think that "hidden" behind the strategy to not call a timeout and to let guys figure it out on their own is a hesitancy to give the opposing coach a chance to set up against you? Put differently, might buzz not want to go head to head with an experienced and strong coach like Pitino at such a critical moment. If he calls timeout, he allows Pitino to set up a defense that could well be better than any offense Buzz might set up. Could there be some inferiority complex there?

That said, last year I felt much more comfortable with not calling those timeouts, with letting the team play. Part of that was because we had a lot more experience on the floor at crunch time, and everyone knew...'get the ball to Lazar.' This year, we tend to have less experience on the floor, and there is no one go-to guy. It might be wiser to use timeouts this year, regardless of who Buzz is coaching against.

[BuzzSucksSucks]

I think it's time for you to go.  Not a big fan of your one post.  "Just ran across this tshirt"...THAT U JUST MADE.

[TJ]

To blame this loss solely on coaching is only a limited view.  This was a perfect storm of things that come together to get Louisville the victory.  Knowles got ridiculously hot.  If he didn't, the coaching wouldn't have matter. 

MU players started to play carelessly.  That included missed rebounds, turnovers, and Buycks going to hole up on with little time on the clock.  No matter how much in game coaching occurs bad turnovers and bad execution will kill you.

It was coaching, Buzz should have called a couple of timeouts to stem the Louisville tide.  There were a lot of things that he could have done but he put his best players in the game and they didn't execute.  He tried to slow the game down to chew up clock and that didn't work.

It was the crowd who was silent for 90% of the game only to go crazy down the end.  This helped the pressure. 

It was Bulter who couldn't handle the ball as he was making his way to the hoop and he had to throw up a poor shot. 

Respectfully disagree, the loss can be 95% attributed to coaching.  Going into a prevent offense for 6 minutes was the #1 reason within that.  Knowles doesn't get hot if our guys are still playing their normal game.  Even if he did, our guys don't all of a sudden get completely sloppy/careless.  DJO doesn't pass up wide open 3's in the middle of a giant run by the opposing team.

Buzz put his best players in the game, but then he tied their hands together on offense, which made them listless on defense.  That is what lost the game.

And to blame anything on Butler's last play is ridiculous.  There is absolutely no way it should have come down to a final play, but coaching caused it to happen.  To get mad at a guy for not scoring from full court in 4.5 seconds after the coach had already blown the game is wrong.

[willie warrior]

I also think it points to the lack of depth we have. For all the talk about we could go 10 deep this season, we're really 6 or 7 deep. Jamail is nowhere near ready for the BE and it appears Devonte isn't either. That leaves Vander, who looks more and more like a freshman in every game, and EWill, who we cannot afford to wait for anymore.

But wait; how can this be, we have at least 7 top 100 guys on the team.

[NersEllenson]

But wait; how can this be, we have at least 7 top 100 guys on the team.

Here's who it can be Willie:  When two of those Top 100 guys are behind your two best players - its hard for them to see court time.  Williams is behind Butler and Crowder.  Jones is behind DJO.  I don't care how you slice it, neither Williams nor Jones as a sophomore/freshman are better than Butler, Crowder, DJO.

I know I've seen you post and complain that Crowder HAS to play 35-40 minutes - so clearly you partially can understand why our "depth" of Top 100 guys aren't seeing the floor a whole lot right now.

[TJ]

Here's who it can be Willie:  When two of those Top 100 guys are behind your two best players - its hard for them to see court time.  Williams is behind Butler and Crowder.  Jones is behind DJO.  I don't care how you slice it, neither Williams nor Jones as a sophomore/freshman are better than Butler, Crowder, DJO.

I know I've seen you post and complain that Crowder HAS to play 35-40 minutes - so clearly you partially can understand why our "depth" of Top 100 guys aren't seeing the floor a whole lot right now.

If they were good enough, Buzz would find minutes for them.  It's not a case of being stuck behind a better player, they just aren't making it into the rotation right now.

[BallBoy]

Really going into the prevent offense up 15 with 6 minutes to go is the wrong thing to do? Really? With 6 minutes left your worse enemy is time.  Running all game and scoring early in the shot clock are what put MU in that position.  Every coach will tell you slow down the pace and take as much time off the clock before looking for a good shot.  They do this because you are much more likely to win.  With simple math, with 6 minutes remaining if you slow down the pace to 30 seconds for your offense and make the opponent play 20 sec pace then you limit yourself to 7.2 possessions per team.  That means the opponent has to make every shot, prevent you from making a shot, or get you to turn the ball over for every shot they miss or you make.  If you play at the same pace of 20 seconds/per team, you have 9 possessions per team.  You want to limit possessions for the opponent. This is what Buzz was supposed to do.  Had he not then you would be crucifying him for not slowing the game down. 

The problem MU had was it gave up 6 points in about 30 seconds.  It went from up 15 with 6 minutes to up 9 with 5:30 minutes left.  That is a completely different game now. It wasn't because they were listless or their hands were tied by the coach. It was because Lousiville hit good shots.  Buzz didn't tell his guys to stop playing defense.  They should expect that use 150% effort on the defensive end because they get a break on offense.

I disagree that MU became listless on defense.  Knowles was hitting corkscrew three pointers with guys in his face.  How is that bad defense or bad coaching?  It also wasn't that Louisville was taking the ball down the court and scoring within 10 seconds.  MU was holding them to what would normally be good shots for the defense.  Knowles made them.  In that stretch Louisville hit like 7 of 8 shots with an offensive rebound on the miss.  If UL misses 1 or 2 more shots, MU is shooting free throws at the other end and this game is probably 8 or 9 point MU win.

MU also had good shots on offense. Quite a few paint touches.  They missed.  How is that Buzz's fault? He tied their hands and said you can only take and miss layups?

Did MU just become sloppy for no reason?  Absolutely not because Lousiville turned up the pressure and the crowd turned up the pressure.  MU had two bad turnovers, one was a 35 ft pass over the head of Butler which took no time off the clock.  The other was a crosscourt pace from Cadougan that was interepted by UL for a layin. The players didn't execute under pressure.  That is not the coaches fault.

So again, it wasn't 95% Buzz's fault.  Coaches put players in the right scenario and the players must execute.  MU didn't.  It was the players' fault, Buzz's fault, and Louisville's fault.  So I do include Butler because he couldn't get a handle on the ball to get off a quality shot. He didn't execute. Tyus Edney dashed the length of the floor in 4.8 seconds to score a layup against Missouri.  Butler had to go from half court and he couldn't get a handle on the ball to put up a quality shot.  Do I blame him much for that? No but it was a reason we lost and with all the other mistakes by the team it was a matter of execution.  So as I said it was the perfect storm of reasons.  To say it was 95% Buzz is someone hoping to have a scapegoat.  Hoping you don't have to give UL any credit.  Hoping that your team is good enough to compete.  If it was just that one guy there is some way he will be able to stop it.  Last I checked Buzz wears a suit not sneakers and gym shorts.

[CTWarrior]

The problem MU had was it gave up 6 points in about 30 seconds.  It went from up 15 with 6 minutes to up 9 with 5:30 minutes left. 

I watched the finish again yesterday, and MU was bad, but the failure was more due to defense than clock management.  (and it was a 7 point run in 27 seconds)
If you go back and look at it, we only let the shot clock get much under 10 seconds twice in the last 6 minutes, and on one of those two trips, Butler had a wide open 3 pointer from the wing, alebit with 1 second on the clock, but he was squared and had a great look, he just missed it. 
A couple of things stood out to me.
1.  We did not attack the offensive glass, choosing instead to get back on defense (which I think was a big mistake considering how well we had been doing on the offensive boards)
2.  We let them score 10 straight times if you don't count the time they bobbled a rebound out of bounds

I don;t blame the prevent offense, I blame the porous defense.

[🏀]

I don;t blame the prevent offense, I blame the porous defense.

Don't you think the prevent offense led to the porous defense, and the overall lack of attack?

[TJ]

Really going into the prevent offense up 15 with 6 minutes to go is the wrong thing to do? Really? With 6 minutes left your worse enemy is time.  Running all game and scoring early in the shot clock are what put MU in that position.  Every coach will tell you slow down the pace and take as much time off the clock before looking for a good shot.  They do this because you are much more likely to win.  With simple math, with 6 minutes remaining if you slow down the pace to 30 seconds for your offense and make the opponent play 20 sec pace then you limit yourself to 7.2 possessions per team.  That means the opponent has to make every shot, prevent you from making a shot, or get you to turn the ball over for every shot they miss or you make.  If you play at the same pace of 20 seconds/per team, you have 9 possessions per team.  You want to limit possessions for the opponent. This is what Buzz was supposed to do.  Had he not then you would be crucifying him for not slowing the game down. 

The problem MU had was it gave up 6 points in about 30 seconds.  It went from up 15 with 6 minutes to up 9 with 5:30 minutes left.  That is a completely different game now. It wasn't because they were listless or their hands were tied by the coach. It was because Lousiville hit good shots.  Buzz didn't tell his guys to stop playing defense.  They should expect that use 150% effort on the defensive end because they get a break on offense.

I disagree that MU became listless on defense.  Knowles was hitting corkscrew three pointers with guys in his face.  How is that bad defense or bad coaching?  It also wasn't that Louisville was taking the ball down the court and scoring within 10 seconds.  MU was holding them to what would normally be good shots for the defense.  Knowles made them.  In that stretch Louisville hit like 7 of 8 shots with an offensive rebound on the miss.  If UL misses 1 or 2 more shots, MU is shooting free throws at the other end and this game is probably 8 or 9 point MU win.

MU also had good shots on offense. Quite a few paint touches.  They missed.  How is that Buzz's fault? He tied their hands and said you can only take and miss layups?

Did MU just become sloppy for no reason?  Absolutely not because Lousiville turned up the pressure and the crowd turned up the pressure.  MU had two bad turnovers, one was a 35 ft pass over the head of Butler which took no time off the clock.  The other was a crosscourt pace from Cadougan that was interepted by UL for a layin. The players didn't execute under pressure.  That is not the coaches fault.

So again, it wasn't 95% Buzz's fault.  Coaches put players in the right scenario and the players must execute.  MU didn't.  It was the players' fault, Buzz's fault, and Louisville's fault.  So I do include Butler because he couldn't get a handle on the ball to get off a quality shot. He didn't execute. Tyus Edney dashed the length of the floor in 4.8 seconds to score a layup against Missouri.  Butler had to go from half court and he couldn't get a handle on the ball to put up a quality shot.  Do I blame him much for that? No but it was a reason we lost and with all the other mistakes by the team it was a matter of execution.  So as I said it was the perfect storm of reasons.  To say it was 95% Buzz is someone hoping to have a scapegoat.  Hoping you don't have to give UL any credit.  Hoping that your team is good enough to compete.  If it was just that one guy there is some way he will be able to stop it.  Last I checked Buzz wears a suit not sneakers and gym shorts.

Why is DJO passing up the most open shot he's seen all year in the middle of the run (after the 6 points in 30 seconds) if it wasn't at Buzz's direction?  Why would you build an 18 point lead and then suddenly change everything you're doing and do something that they guys are obviously not comfortable with?  We lost the rebounding battle 9-0 during that stretch, does it have something to do with the fact that Buzz spread the floor and had 4 guys on the perimeter on offense?

I simply do not agree with the strategy or your points.  There was an obvious change in strategy/direction at around the 6 minute mark, and almost everything else that happened can in some way be attributed to that.  This is not the first time a team has had miracle runs to beat us, nor is it the first time Louisville has done it.  I bet in every case we went into a prevent offense and tried to slow down the game.  Sometimes the strategy doesn't cause a loss, but it certainly doesn't help secure a victory as much as it attempts to hold on for dear life.  It's not a good strategy, it doesn't work for MU, and we shouldn't do it.

[BallBoy]

Don't you think the prevent offense led to the porous defense, and the overall lack of attack?

No.  MU went from a 17 point lead to an 8 point lead in 55 seconds.  That doesn't sound like a prevent offense.  If they were in prevent offense it would have been over a 3 minute period instead.  If Louisville misses one of those threes MU is shooting free throws on the other end game won by 8-10.  Or if MU gets to the offensive side of the court.

[BallBoy]

I simply do not agree with the strategy or your points.  There was an obvious change in strategy/direction at around the 6 minute mark, and almost everything else that happened can in some way be attributed to that.  

See point above, MU didn't even get the ball the offensive side of the court for the next 55 seconds.  UL scores three times for a total of 9 points.  What strategy changed?  How did MU do anything differently on offense during that stretch?  What shots did DJO pass up?   MU should have slowed it down but they didn't.  Had MU taken anytime off the clock they probably would have won but they didn't.  They pushed the ball and turned it over twice.   

Your whole argument about this is moot.  UL scored 9 points without a single MU offensive half court set run.  By definition MU should have spaced out the court and ran clock.  They didn't.  Not until later but that was because UL wasn't giving them good shots.  So had MU pulled the dogs back after the first 3 pointer and controlled the ball they would have won.

[CTWarrior]

Here are our last 13 possessions

1.    Buycks turns it over with an errant pass with 10-12 seconds left on shot clock (we were clearly in prevent mode here) – up 18 at end of possession
2.   Louisville fouls DJO before it is clear whether we are going to stall or not as there are still 25 seconds left on the clock, and DJO makes both free throws.   – up 18
3.   DJO misses jumper with 25 left on the shot clock (no stall there) – up 16
4.   Cadougan turns it over against the press (can't blame the stall)- up 13
5.   Butler misses wide open 3 with 1 second left on the clock.  That was a stall, but we killed 35 seconds of clock and got a good shot.- up 11
6.   Buycks misses open 3 with 18 left on the clock.  Louisville fumbles the rebound out of bounds.  MU calls timeout. – up 8
7.   Cadougan misses a wild running one hander with 10 seconds left on the clock after a time out.  Had time to get a better shot than that.  Bad coaching, but not bad clock management. – up 8
8.   Butler misses tough shot as clock is expiring.  Bad shot due to stalling. – up 6
9.   Crowder makes lay-up with 18 seconds or so left on the shot clock.  Excellent possession. – up 5
10.   Buycks makes lay-up with 6 or 7 left on the clock.  Excellent possession. – up 4
11.   They foul Cadougan and he makes one of two.  Nothing to do with clock management here, but perhaps bad coaching that Cadougan was on the floor, but he had made 6 of 6 from the line in this game before making 1 of 2 here. – up 3
12.   Buycks insane lay-up attempt is blocked with no shot clock on and 12 seconds left in the game.  Not clock management. – up 1
13.   Butler's missed 12 footer to end the game. – down 1
The bigger problem again is that Louisville scored on 10 of the 12 possessions between our last 13 possessions, with their only failures to score coming when they dropped an offensive rebound out of bounds and when they stepped out of bounds after gathering in a long defensive rebound.  Basically we didn't stop them once in their last 12 possessions.  While Knowles was great, only one of his 3s was of the "How did he make that?" variety.  Basically, all of their points at the end of the game were open jump shots or lay ups.  We neither defended nor rebounded down the stretch, and that is what killed us more than taking the air out of the ball on offense.

[TJ]

See point above, MU didn't even get the ball the offensive side of the court for the next 55 seconds.  UL scores three times for a total of 9 points.  What strategy changed?  How did MU do anything differently on offense during that stretch?  What shots did DJO pass up?   MU should have slowed it down but they didn't.  Had MU taken anytime off the clock they probably would have won but they didn't.  They pushed the ball and turned it over twice.   

Your whole argument about this is moot.  UL scored 9 points without a single MU offensive half court set run.  By definition MU should have spaced out the court and ran clock.  They didn't.  Not until later but that was because UL wasn't giving them good shots.  So had MU pulled the dogs back after the first 3 pointer and controlled the ball they would have won.

Look, you have a lot of good points, and I'm not going to try to convince you of anything.  My opinion is based on feeling and memory so it wouldn't be worth it to try anyway.  I feel like the players played differently and more poorly because Buzz had given them orders to change their strategy (which clearly happened).  My opinion is that not doing so would have allowed the players to play the way that they had up to that point, meaning that they would have taken better care of the ball and attacked the basket better, leading hopefully to more points.  I don't think UL was that much better on D that they could stop us from getting good shots, I think for at least 3 possessions MU wasn't trying to get good shots.  I think MU players were forcing things and playing out of character, which led to the turnovers against the press and being out of position on defense and rebounding.  There is no way to prove any of that, I admit.

CTWarrior did a great job with the recap, thank you for doing it.

To answer one of your specific questions about DJO: At one point MU broke the press with a pass to a wide open DJO at the 3 point line who passed up the shot to eat clock.  There was no one within 15 feet of him.  I can't remember which possession, somewhere between 5 and 8 I think.  It was the clearest indication to me that Buzz had changed the players mindset - even if he doesn't take the shot, DJO would definitely drive in that situation.  In my opinion, the Louisville press is effective at forcing turnovers, but can lead to easy fast break points if it's broken.  If we choose to not attack we brake the press, then we take away the biggest disadvantage of the press and allow them the possibility of turnovers without the danger of easy points, thereby making their strategy more effective for them.

[TJ]

Also, by not attacking the basket, we took away our own biggest strength for the game - getting fouled and foul shooting.  They had multiple post players with 4 fouls and we just stopped attacking.  We scored a ton of points from the line and we stopped trying to get there for multiple possessions down the stretch.  It was a combination of the refs suddenly swallowing their whistles and MU no longer driving and forcing contact like they had been doing so well all game long.

[brewcity77]

Don't you think the prevent offense led to the porous defense, and the overall lack of attack?

No comment on the quote, but man, your sig is nauseating. Not the Packers, I couldn't care less about the content, but that constant spin makes me want to hurl like there's a minute left in the UL game all over again. Are there maybe some GB gifs that don't feature the same too-quick camera trucking?

[🏀]

No comment on the quote, but man, your sig is nauseating. Not the Packers, I couldn't care less about the content, but that constant spin makes me want to hurl like there's a minute left in the UL game all over again. Are there maybe some GB gifs that don't feature the same too-quick camera trucking?

Fine, fine.