The Defense Issue

[brewcity77]

Okay, as has been pointed out by Henry Sugar, Blackheart, and virtually everyone else on the board, we are having plenty of struggles on defense. Specifically 3-point defense and rebounding. I think what kills me about that is that it's not a one-or-the-other question. If we were locking down on the three, I'd understand not having the manpower inside to rebound. Alternatively, if we were focusing on our defensive rebounding, I'd understand guys getting open outside because we stuffed the paint.

So my question is what will help it? Clearly the problem seems to start in the middle. I think most of our guards are above average defensively, while most of the forwards we seem to rotate in are at least average. That would indicate the problem is in the middle, where Gardner seems below average, and Otule is very hit-or-miss. Is this a case where we might need someone accustomed to working with big men to teach them proper positioning? Or do we simply need an athletic 4 out there to take the pressure off those two guys being the only real big man we have on the floor (God's Gift comes to mind...).

Or is the problem bigger than that? We seem a step slow often on our 3-point defense rotations. We seem to focus more on not fouling than we do on actually D'ing a guy up. Does Buzz maybe need to hire a defensive assistant to help both the team and him with that part of the game?

I think that from a talent and offense perspective, Buzz's teams are probably the most impressive we've seen in a long, long time. On the defensive end, however, we definitely have our struggles, to say the least. So what's the solution?

[Dr. Blackheart]

Buzz is a Billy G. disciple...this is a great article that explains what Buzz is trying to do, at least philospically, based upon the A&M experience.  The goal:

"Gillispie, as we all know, plays a pressure man-to-man defense.  That doesn't mean he utilizes a full-court press, but it does mean that it is an in-your-chest type of defense designed to force turnovers and deny the passing lanes.

"Gillispie's defense is more traditional.  Now, defensive strategies are far more subtle than offensive strategies:  For example, some man-to-man defenses attempt to deny the wing pass, others try to get the ball out of the point guard's hands.  Smith denied the wing pass, because most post feeds come from the wing and better shooters tend to live there.  Gillispie's strategy appears to be to force the point guard to surrender the ball, and to have the wings handle more.

Coach Gillispie's man-to man with the ball in the low post.

This strategy allows easier access to the post and allows better shooters to touch the ball more in theory, but it also keeps the ball out of the hands of the primary penetrator and ball handler, increasing the likelihood of turnovers.
Gillispie likes to have his defenders force the wings toward the sidelines, making post feeds harder and allowing defenders to wedge the wings toward the corner, where traps become possible.  He also had Law pick up the point at 3/4 court most possessions, again trying to get the ball out of the primary ballhandler's hands as quickly as possible.

Gillispie's more traditional man-to-man makes it easier to guard skip-passes from the post, because help-side defenders stay closer to their man.  Spacing is critical in this setup, because help-side defense must come quickly on drives to the hoop.

Gillispie's TAMU team did not like to switch on ball screens much, they tried very hard to fight over them -- same thing Tubby taught.  I never saw TAMU in a zone one time, and neither did they ever go into a zone press.  I saw a couple of man presses, but the zone press is what you use to try to deny inbounds and force back-court turnovers.  So if you are looking for the Pitino days of constant press, you will be disappointed."

http://www.aseaofblue.com/2007/6/20/83756/8944

[willie warrior]

Gardner is not below average. he is a freshman and has good offensive skills. Otule is not hit and miss. He is a miss. He is a pretty good shoy blocker.

[chren21]

Gardner is not below average. he is a freshman and has good offensive skills. Otule is not hit and miss. He is a miss. He is a pretty good shoy blocker.

It it me or is it just a little funny that we have been asking for a big man for what seems like decades and now that we are starting one we find out he only is playing with one eye.

Nothing against him, I just find it a wee bit comical.

[jesmu84]

Buzz is a Billy G. disciple...this is a great article that explains what Buzz is trying to do, at least philospically, based upon the A&M experience.  The goal:

Dr. B -

How did Billy's teams do defensively? Especially compared to Marquette.  And, if you know, does this style of defense, being where the pressure is emphasized, equate to generally poor defensive ratings?  I'm kinda un-educated when it comes to these topics, so thanks for the info.

[6746jonesr]

I like the defensive philosophy that Buzz utilizes, but we do see what can happen with inexperience.  While I do believe that this year's team has more individual talent and is much deeper than last years, our defense is suffering a bit due to inexperience.  For all the bashing of our guards last year, they were seniors and played very tough defense.  And, Lazar was an animal on the defensive side, generally going against guys much bigger than himself.  As a result, we created a lot of turnovers.  While I think DJO has improved defensively from last year, I think he will continue to improve.  Crowder is a nice offensive player, but he also has some work to do on the defensive end.  Let's face it--we play in an extemely tough conference and we have a number of players who are just now learning how tough it is to play defense in the Big East.  There are going to be growing pains this year.  However, we continue to be in every game.  I think this says a lot about the talent of our players and of the coaching staff.  I think it also bodes well for the future of this team as they continue to gain experience on the defensive end.

Expectations run really high at MU, and i am all for that.  But we also need a bit of realism as well.  When Coach Crean left, we had a number of very talented players who were juniors and seniors, and virtually nothing in the freshman and sophmore classes.  Recruiting the jc players heped with this transition and also helped avaid a tremendous drop off in performance.  But I do believe that we need to be a bit patient with Buzz and the current group of players, and allow them the time  into an elite level team.  I don't think we have long to wait.  We might be a bubble team this year, but I would count this group of guys out just yet.  But next year might be a truer test for what to expect from MU in the future.  He will have a much more experienced team, with guys learning his system and their roles in that system for a couple of years.  Go MU.

[tower912]

Careful.  That was sane, objective, and coherent. 

[Henry Sugar]

I like the defensive philosophy that Buzz utilizes, but we do see what can happen with inexperience.  While I do believe that this year's team has more individual talent and is much deeper than last years, our defense is suffering a bit due to inexperience.  For all the bashing of our guards last year, they were seniors and played very tough defense.  And, Lazar was an animal on the defensive side, generally going against guys much bigger than himself.  As a result, we created a lot of turnovers. 

Counterpoint - Marquette did not play very tough defense last year.  We did not create a lot of turnovers.

Last year's team - #57 defensively
#68 at forcing turnovers
#201 at defensive eFG%

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Marquette&y=2010

[rugbydrummer]

Careful.  That was sane, objective, and coherent. 

yeah, if you want real respect around here, you need to become a loose cannon and say controversial things, personally attack others, and name call to get people's attention.  It especially helps to feud with one other poster in particular

take it from me . . .

[GGGG]

Careful.  That was sane, objective, and coherent. 

...and inaccurate.

[MarquetteDano]

...and inaccurate.

Got to go with the Sultan on this one.  I understand the inexperienced thing, but I am sure you can find a plethora of teams who have less experience than us than play better "D".  I give Buzz a lot of credit for a fluid offense so I have to fault him for the less than stellar defense.

One thing that I like about Buzz is he doesn't seem ridiculously stubborn like some coaches.  I see him making changes in his offensive and defensive philosophy each year.  Just need to make some tweaks to get the defense better.

[GGGG]

I'm not even addressing the inexperience issue.  Last year's team wasn't good defensively either.

[chren21]

One thing that I like about Buzz is he doesn't seem ridiculously stubborn like some coaches. 

yes, like sticking with the 3 man weave when its obvious it only really works when you have a dwayne wade.

[Rubie Q]

How did Billy's teams do defensively? Especially compared to Marquette. 

UTEP 2004: 73rd in defense, 103rd in eFG% defense

Texas A&M 2005: 68th in defense, 43rd in eFG% defense

Texas A&M 2006: 8th in defense (4th in TO% on defense), 52nd in eFG% defense

Texas A&M 2007: 10th in defense, 2nd in eFG% defense

Kentucky 2008: 44th in defense, 18th in eFG% defense

Kentucky 2009: 34th in defense, 26th in eFG% defense

[NotAnAlum]

I think a lot of this is do to inexperience at the center position.  I've said before that I think the 5 is by far the hardest position to play defensively in College Basketball.  Not only do you have to play your man, and in the BE the 5 man is typically pretty good, but you also have to pick up everybody else's man on drives and get in rebounding position.  Thats a lot do have to do and it gets much easier with experience.
Now who do we have to put at this most difficult to play position.  CO- A red shirt Soph who has only played in a handful of games, was a margin recruit out of HS; Gardner - A true freshman with almost no defensive instincts; Crowder - talented but undersized and brand new to the team.
Why is this showing up now.  Well because last year you had Lazar at the 5, undersized but a cagey player and Senior.  Before that Burke for one year as a Senior and 4 year player, before that Barro for 2 years Junior and Senior before that I think we were pretty bad.
We are paying the price for not being able to recruit a center for so long.  And because MU defense is based on tight man to man that defense is going to get beat and when it does there is no one to cover up and the player rotations to attempt to cover open up the 3.  I don't think its because Buzz doesn't coach it or can't, I think its just the guys he has to work with and their experinece level

[Henry Sugar]

Dr. B -

How did Billy's teams do defensively? Especially compared to Marquette.  And, if you know, does this style of defense, being where the pressure is emphasized, equate to generally poor defensive ratings?  I'm kinda un-educated when it comes to these topics, so thanks for the info.

I'm not the good Dr, but here's the answer.  Gillespie's teams at Texas A&M had a very different defensive profile.

2005 - #68 defensively.  #43 on eFG% and #60 at defensive OR%.  They fouled a LOT (#313 at FTR).  eFG% was dominated by interior defense (#17), but the perimeter D was weak (#191).  This is very different defensively than MU.  

2006 - #8 defensively.  #4 at forcing turnovers.  #52 at eFG%, #102 at DR%.  Still fouled a lot (#323).  Again, eFG% was dominated by interior D (#35).

2007 - #10 defensively.  #2 at eFG%.  #37 at DR%.  #135 at forcing turnovers.  #204 at fouling.  eFG% was good interior (#6) AND perimeter (#3)

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Texas%20A%26M&y=2005
http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Texas%20A%26M&y=2006
http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Texas%20A%26M&y=2007

[Spencer Pratt]

I think it is very easy to get lost in statistics such as eFG% defense, DR%, ect.   While these numbers most definitely shed some insight into what the problem is, I believe it all comes back to one thing.  Our two largest interior post players (Otule and Gardner) are just not that athletic.  Yes, they have some good size and can push opponents around on the block, but after the ball hits the rim they simply cannot JUMP to get the rebound.  In the Pitt game, Otule had a nice baseline slam, but it was as if his arms were rubber and he extended them long enough to dunk the ball without getting off the floor.  Bottom line:  Otule and Gardner can't jump over a piece of paper and thus it is hard for them to rebound over smaller opponents, much less someone their size. 

[drbob]

Why make it more complicated then it is?  We are outmuscled and out sized down low.  Both Butler and Crowder are 3's  and O'Tule can't dunk the ball in traffic half the time. When u can't get the offensive rebounds you end up out of position, thus the high percentage second and third shots.  The problem is the same   more size and athleticism  in the 4 and 5 position. How much  would Dieng ( Louisville )  and Harris ( Tennessee) improve our interior defense. Undersized teams expend more energy to compensate and it eventually makes for tired players and more lapses.  Hope Buzz continues his recruiting efforts and eventually gets that breakthru  4 or 5

[Henry Sugar]

I do not agree with either of you that it is a matter of personnel. 

Honestly, I'd like to see someone convince me that our defensive issues are anything but a scheme/coaching issue.  There are shorter teams that play good defense.  There are inexperienced teams that play good defense. 

Kevin O'Neill could get this roster to play better defense.  Deane could too.  Sh*t.  Crean could probably get this roster to play better defense.  Crean had a top 10 defense with Barro, Burke, and Fitzgerald in the post.

[babytownfrolics]

I do not agree with either of you that it is a matter of personnel. 

Honestly, I'd like to see someone convince me that our defensive issues are anything but a scheme/coaching issue.  There are shorter teams that play good defense.  There are inexperienced teams that play good defense. 

Kevin O'Neill could get this roster to play better defense.  Deane could too.  Sh*t.  Crean could probably get this roster to play better defense.  Crean had a top 10 defense with Barro, Burke, and Fitzgerald in the post.

Could it be a one or the other issue with this team?  If Buzz made this team better on defense, would there be a corresponding drop in offensive efficiency to make it a wash?

[willie warrior]

I think a lot of this is do to inexperience at the center position.  I've said before that I think the 5 is by far the hardest position to play defensively in College Basketball.  Not only do you have to play your man, and in the BE the 5 man is typically pretty good, but you also have to pick up everybody else's man on drives and get in rebounding position.  Thats a lot do have to do and it gets much easier with experience.
Now who do we have to put at this most difficult to play position.  CO- A red shirt Soph who has only played in a handful of games, was a margin recruit out of HS; Gardner - A true freshman with almost no defensive instincts; Crowder - talented but undersized and brand new to the team.
Why is this showing up now.  Well because last year you had Lazar at the 5, undersized but a cagey player and Senior.  Before that Burke for one year as a Senior and 4 year player, before that Barro for 2 years Junior and Senior before that I think we were pretty bad.
We are paying the price for not being able to recruit a center for so long.  And because MU defense is based on tight man to man that defense is going to get beat and when it does there is no one to cover up and the player rotations to attempt to cover open up the 3.  I don't think its because Buzz doesn't coach it or can't, I think its just the guys he has to work with and their experinece level

We don't need ceneters, we need more switchables

[Henry Sugar]

Could it be a one or the other issue with this team?  If Buzz made this team better on defense, would there be a corresponding drop in offensive efficiency to make it a wash?

Honestly, I don't know.  I don't think so.

Part of my big frustration is that I don't know basketball well enough to determine what could be done differently.  I just know that what is happening now isn't working.

[BuzzSucksSucks]

I have no business weighing in, but who cares.  To me, it has to be a scheme/coaching issue, because of the numbers.  Exhibit A:  On the ESPN Marquette page, it shows that, offensively, we're an elite team.  (Top 10 in assists and FG%?  That's sweet.)  Can one of the elite teams in Div I (on the offensive end) possibly be fielded by guys who aren't  great athletes?  The offensive numbers suggest that these guys are studs.   For that excuse to fly, it would imply that there are physical attributes of good defenders that aren't required on the other end of the gym.  It's not track and field.  These guys are ballplayers, and, according to the numbers, they're capable of getting it done.

[drbob]

Hey Mo   ever watch DENNIS Rodman play  great lockdown defender and rebounder, couldn't hit a barn with his shot..  I respectfully argue that having offensive skills does not equate to good defensive .  If you are 2 or 3 inches shorter and 25 lbs lighter it makes defense tougher,assuming both are athlethically gifted.  Look at Syracuse and their zone.  Good height and lenght and athleticism make it effective

[BuzzSucksSucks]

Absolutely.  I thought about mentioning that, how there are lock-down guys, defensive specialists.  Rodman's a perfect example.  But Marquette's not exactly Medfield College, either, that' was my point.  Teamwise, I just can't see how we shouldn't be able to git er done defensively.  But hey, never was much of a baller myself.  One of those long range gunners who couldn't really pass, dribble, or shoot, let alone play D.  Used to yell "help" and "switch" a lot.