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Author Topic: The Defense Issue  (Read 8696 times)

brewcity77

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The Defense Issue
« on: January 09, 2011, 02:28:52 PM »
Okay, as has been pointed out by Henry Sugar, Blackheart, and virtually everyone else on the board, we are having plenty of struggles on defense. Specifically 3-point defense and rebounding. I think what kills me about that is that it's not a one-or-the-other question. If we were locking down on the three, I'd understand not having the manpower inside to rebound. Alternatively, if we were focusing on our defensive rebounding, I'd understand guys getting open outside because we stuffed the paint.

So my question is what will help it? Clearly the problem seems to start in the middle. I think most of our guards are above average defensively, while most of the forwards we seem to rotate in are at least average. That would indicate the problem is in the middle, where Gardner seems below average, and Otule is very hit-or-miss. Is this a case where we might need someone accustomed to working with big men to teach them proper positioning? Or do we simply need an athletic 4 out there to take the pressure off those two guys being the only real big man we have on the floor (God's Gift comes to mind...).

Or is the problem bigger than that? We seem a step slow often on our 3-point defense rotations. We seem to focus more on not fouling than we do on actually D'ing a guy up. Does Buzz maybe need to hire a defensive assistant to help both the team and him with that part of the game?

I think that from a talent and offense perspective, Buzz's teams are probably the most impressive we've seen in a long, long time. On the defensive end, however, we definitely have our struggles, to say the least. So what's the solution?
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2011, 03:10:00 PM »
Buzz is a Billy G. disciple...this is a great article that explains what Buzz is trying to do, at least philospically, based upon the A&M experience.  The goal:

"Gillispie, as we all know, plays a pressure man-to-man defense.  That doesn't mean he utilizes a full-court press, but it does mean that it is an in-your-chest type of defense designed to force turnovers and deny the passing lanes.

"Gillispie's defense is more traditional.  Now, defensive strategies are far more subtle than offensive strategies:  For example, some man-to-man defenses attempt to deny the wing pass, others try to get the ball out of the point guard's hands.  Smith denied the wing pass, because most post feeds come from the wing and better shooters tend to live there.  Gillispie's strategy appears to be to force the point guard to surrender the ball, and to have the wings handle more.

Coach Gillispie's man-to man with the ball in the low post.

This strategy allows easier access to the post and allows better shooters to touch the ball more in theory, but it also keeps the ball out of the hands of the primary penetrator and ball handler, increasing the likelihood of turnovers.
Gillispie likes to have his defenders force the wings toward the sidelines, making post feeds harder and allowing defenders to wedge the wings toward the corner, where traps become possible.  He also had Law pick up the point at 3/4 court most possessions, again trying to get the ball out of the primary ballhandler's hands as quickly as possible.

Gillispie's more traditional man-to-man makes it easier to guard skip-passes from the post, because help-side defenders stay closer to their man.  Spacing is critical in this setup, because help-side defense must come quickly on drives to the hoop.

Gillispie's TAMU team did not like to switch on ball screens much, they tried very hard to fight over them -- same thing Tubby taught.  I never saw TAMU in a zone one time, and neither did they ever go into a zone press.  I saw a couple of man presses, but the zone press is what you use to try to deny inbounds and force back-court turnovers.  So if you are looking for the Pitino days of constant press, you will be disappointed."

http://www.aseaofblue.com/2007/6/20/83756/8944
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 03:12:16 PM by Dr. Blackheart »

willie warrior

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2011, 05:26:20 PM »
Gardner is not below average. he is a freshman and has good offensive skills. Otule is not hit and miss. He is a miss. He is a pretty good shoy blocker.
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chren21

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2011, 05:42:52 PM »
Gardner is not below average. he is a freshman and has good offensive skills. Otule is not hit and miss. He is a miss. He is a pretty good shoy blocker.

It it me or is it just a little funny that we have been asking for a big man for what seems like decades and now that we are starting one we find out he only is playing with one eye.

Nothing against him, I just find it a wee bit comical.

jesmu84

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2011, 12:52:03 PM »
Buzz is a Billy G. disciple...this is a great article that explains what Buzz is trying to do, at least philospically, based upon the A&M experience.  The goal:

Dr. B -

How did Billy's teams do defensively? Especially compared to Marquette.  And, if you know, does this style of defense, being where the pressure is emphasized, equate to generally poor defensive ratings?  I'm kinda un-educated when it comes to these topics, so thanks for the info.

6746jonesr

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2011, 12:59:34 PM »
I like the defensive philosophy that Buzz utilizes, but we do see what can happen with inexperience.  While I do believe that this year's team has more individual talent and is much deeper than last years, our defense is suffering a bit due to inexperience.  For all the bashing of our guards last year, they were seniors and played very tough defense.  And, Lazar was an animal on the defensive side, generally going against guys much bigger than himself.  As a result, we created a lot of turnovers.  While I think DJO has improved defensively from last year, I think he will continue to improve.  Crowder is a nice offensive player, but he also has some work to do on the defensive end.  Let's face it--we play in an extemely tough conference and we have a number of players who are just now learning how tough it is to play defense in the Big East.  There are going to be growing pains this year.  However, we continue to be in every game.  I think this says a lot about the talent of our players and of the coaching staff.  I think it also bodes well for the future of this team as they continue to gain experience on the defensive end.

Expectations run really high at MU, and i am all for that.  But we also need a bit of realism as well.  When Coach Crean left, we had a number of very talented players who were juniors and seniors, and virtually nothing in the freshman and sophmore classes.  Recruiting the jc players heped with this transition and also helped avaid a tremendous drop off in performance.  But I do believe that we need to be a bit patient with Buzz and the current group of players, and allow them the time  into an elite level team.  I don't think we have long to wait.  We might be a bubble team this year, but I would count this group of guys out just yet.  But next year might be a truer test for what to expect from MU in the future.  He will have a much more experienced team, with guys learning his system and their roles in that system for a couple of years.  Go MU.

tower912

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2011, 01:04:06 PM »
Careful.  That was sane, objective, and coherent. 
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Henry Sugar

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2011, 01:24:46 PM »
I like the defensive philosophy that Buzz utilizes, but we do see what can happen with inexperience.  While I do believe that this year's team has more individual talent and is much deeper than last years, our defense is suffering a bit due to inexperience.  For all the bashing of our guards last year, they were seniors and played very tough defense.  And, Lazar was an animal on the defensive side, generally going against guys much bigger than himself.  As a result, we created a lot of turnovers. 

Counterpoint - Marquette did not play very tough defense last year.  We did not create a lot of turnovers.

Last year's team - #57 defensively
#68 at forcing turnovers
#201 at defensive eFG%

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Marquette&y=2010
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rugbydrummer

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2011, 01:29:27 PM »
Careful.  That was sane, objective, and coherent. 

yeah, if you want real respect around here, you need to become a loose cannon and say controversial things, personally attack others, and name call to get people's attention.  It especially helps to feud with one other poster in particular

take it from me . . . ;)

GGGG

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2011, 01:35:07 PM »
Careful.  That was sane, objective, and coherent. 


...and inaccurate.

MarquetteDano

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2011, 01:41:37 PM »

...and inaccurate.

Got to go with the Sultan on this one.  I understand the inexperienced thing, but I am sure you can find a plethora of teams who have less experience than us than play better "D".  I give Buzz a lot of credit for a fluid offense so I have to fault him for the less than stellar defense.

One thing that I like about Buzz is he doesn't seem ridiculously stubborn like some coaches.  I see him making changes in his offensive and defensive philosophy each year.  Just need to make some tweaks to get the defense better.

GGGG

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2011, 01:44:07 PM »
I'm not even addressing the inexperience issue.  Last year's team wasn't good defensively either.

chren21

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2011, 01:46:57 PM »
One thing that I like about Buzz is he doesn't seem ridiculously stubborn like some coaches. 

yes, like sticking with the 3 man weave when its obvious it only really works when you have a dwayne wade.

Rubie Q

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2011, 01:47:29 PM »
How did Billy's teams do defensively? Especially compared to Marquette. 

UTEP 2004: 73rd in defense, 103rd in eFG% defense

Texas A&M 2005: 68th in defense, 43rd in eFG% defense

Texas A&M 2006: 8th in defense (4th in TO% on defense), 52nd in eFG% defense

Texas A&M 2007: 10th in defense, 2nd in eFG% defense

Kentucky 2008: 44th in defense, 18th in eFG% defense

Kentucky 2009: 34th in defense, 26th in eFG% defense

NotAnAlum

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2011, 01:48:42 PM »
I think a lot of this is do to inexperience at the center position.  I've said before that I think the 5 is by far the hardest position to play defensively in College Basketball.  Not only do you have to play your man, and in the BE the 5 man is typically pretty good, but you also have to pick up everybody else's man on drives and get in rebounding position.  Thats a lot do have to do and it gets much easier with experience.
Now who do we have to put at this most difficult to play position.  CO- A red shirt Soph who has only played in a handful of games, was a margin recruit out of HS; Gardner - A true freshman with almost no defensive instincts; Crowder - talented but undersized and brand new to the team.
Why is this showing up now.  Well because last year you had Lazar at the 5, undersized but a cagey player and Senior.  Before that Burke for one year as a Senior and 4 year player, before that Barro for 2 years Junior and Senior before that I think we were pretty bad.
We are paying the price for not being able to recruit a center for so long.  And because MU defense is based on tight man to man that defense is going to get beat and when it does there is no one to cover up and the player rotations to attempt to cover open up the 3.  I don't think its because Buzz doesn't coach it or can't, I think its just the guys he has to work with and their experinece level

Henry Sugar

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2011, 01:49:57 PM »
Dr. B -

How did Billy's teams do defensively? Especially compared to Marquette.  And, if you know, does this style of defense, being where the pressure is emphasized, equate to generally poor defensive ratings?  I'm kinda un-educated when it comes to these topics, so thanks for the info.

I'm not the good Dr, but here's the answer.  Gillespie's teams at Texas A&M had a very different defensive profile.

2005 - #68 defensively.  #43 on eFG% and #60 at defensive OR%.  They fouled a LOT (#313 at FTR).  eFG% was dominated by interior defense (#17), but the perimeter D was weak (#191).  This is very different defensively than MU.  

2006 - #8 defensively.  #4 at forcing turnovers.  #52 at eFG%, #102 at DR%.  Still fouled a lot (#323).  Again, eFG% was dominated by interior D (#35).

2007 - #10 defensively.  #2 at eFG%.  #37 at DR%.  #135 at forcing turnovers.  #204 at fouling.  eFG% was good interior (#6) AND perimeter (#3)

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Texas%20A%26M&y=2005
http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Texas%20A%26M&y=2006
http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Texas%20A%26M&y=2007
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Spencer Pratt

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2011, 02:24:19 PM »
I think it is very easy to get lost in statistics such as eFG% defense, DR%, ect.   While these numbers most definitely shed some insight into what the problem is, I believe it all comes back to one thing.  Our two largest interior post players (Otule and Gardner) are just not that athletic.  Yes, they have some good size and can push opponents around on the block, but after the ball hits the rim they simply cannot JUMP to get the rebound.  In the Pitt game, Otule had a nice baseline slam, but it was as if his arms were rubber and he extended them long enough to dunk the ball without getting off the floor.  Bottom line:  Otule and Gardner can't jump over a piece of paper and thus it is hard for them to rebound over smaller opponents, much less someone their size. 

drbob

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2011, 03:37:20 PM »
Why make it more complicated then it is?  We are outmuscled and out sized down low.  Both Butler and Crowder are 3's  and O'Tule can't dunk the ball in traffic half the time. When u can't get the offensive rebounds you end up out of position, thus the high percentage second and third shots.  The problem is the same   more size and athleticism  in the 4 and 5 position. How much  would Dieng ( Louisville )  and Harris ( Tennessee) improve our interior defense. Undersized teams expend more energy to compensate and it eventually makes for tired players and more lapses.  Hope Buzz continues his recruiting efforts and eventually gets that breakthru  4 or 5

Henry Sugar

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2011, 03:45:09 PM »
I do not agree with either of you that it is a matter of personnel. 

Honestly, I'd like to see someone convince me that our defensive issues are anything but a scheme/coaching issue.  There are shorter teams that play good defense.  There are inexperienced teams that play good defense. 

Kevin O'Neill could get this roster to play better defense.  Deane could too.  Sh*t.  Crean could probably get this roster to play better defense.  Crean had a top 10 defense with Barro, Burke, and Fitzgerald in the post.
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babytownfrolics

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2011, 04:10:45 PM »
I do not agree with either of you that it is a matter of personnel. 

Honestly, I'd like to see someone convince me that our defensive issues are anything but a scheme/coaching issue.  There are shorter teams that play good defense.  There are inexperienced teams that play good defense. 

Kevin O'Neill could get this roster to play better defense.  Deane could too.  Sh*t.  Crean could probably get this roster to play better defense.  Crean had a top 10 defense with Barro, Burke, and Fitzgerald in the post.

Could it be a one or the other issue with this team?  If Buzz made this team better on defense, would there be a corresponding drop in offensive efficiency to make it a wash?

willie warrior

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2011, 04:16:11 PM »
I think a lot of this is do to inexperience at the center position.  I've said before that I think the 5 is by far the hardest position to play defensively in College Basketball.  Not only do you have to play your man, and in the BE the 5 man is typically pretty good, but you also have to pick up everybody else's man on drives and get in rebounding position.  Thats a lot do have to do and it gets much easier with experience.
Now who do we have to put at this most difficult to play position.  CO- A red shirt Soph who has only played in a handful of games, was a margin recruit out of HS; Gardner - A true freshman with almost no defensive instincts; Crowder - talented but undersized and brand new to the team.
Why is this showing up now.  Well because last year you had Lazar at the 5, undersized but a cagey player and Senior.  Before that Burke for one year as a Senior and 4 year player, before that Barro for 2 years Junior and Senior before that I think we were pretty bad.
We are paying the price for not being able to recruit a center for so long.  And because MU defense is based on tight man to man that defense is going to get beat and when it does there is no one to cover up and the player rotations to attempt to cover open up the 3.  I don't think its because Buzz doesn't coach it or can't, I think its just the guys he has to work with and their experinece level
We don't need ceneters, we need more switchables
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Henry Sugar

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2011, 04:24:46 PM »
Could it be a one or the other issue with this team?  If Buzz made this team better on defense, would there be a corresponding drop in offensive efficiency to make it a wash?

Honestly, I don't know.  I don't think so.

Part of my big frustration is that I don't know basketball well enough to determine what could be done differently.  I just know that what is happening now isn't working.
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BuzzSucksSucks

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2011, 05:21:31 PM »
I have no business weighing in, but who cares.  To me, it has to be a scheme/coaching issue, because of the numbers.  Exhibit A:  On the ESPN Marquette page, it shows that, offensively, we're an elite team.  (Top 10 in assists and FG%?  That's sweet.)  Can one of the elite teams in Div I (on the offensive end) possibly be fielded by guys who aren't  great athletes?  The offensive numbers suggest that these guys are studs.   For that excuse to fly, it would imply that there are physical attributes of good defenders that aren't required on the other end of the gym.  It's not track and field.  These guys are ballplayers, and, according to the numbers, they're capable of getting it done.

drbob

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2011, 05:55:28 PM »
Hey Mo   ever watch DENNIS Rodman play  great lockdown defender and rebounder, couldn't hit a barn with his shot..  I respectfully argue that having offensive skills does not equate to good defensive .  If you are 2 or 3 inches shorter and 25 lbs lighter it makes defense tougher,assuming both are athlethically gifted.  Look at Syracuse and their zone.  Good height and lenght and athleticism make it effective

BuzzSucksSucks

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2011, 06:06:17 PM »
Absolutely.  I thought about mentioning that, how there are lock-down guys, defensive specialists.  Rodman's a perfect example.  But Marquette's not exactly Medfield College, either, that' was my point.  Teamwise, I just can't see how we shouldn't be able to git er done defensively.  But hey, never was much of a baller myself.  One of those long range gunners who couldn't really pass, dribble, or shoot, let alone play D.  Used to yell "help" and "switch" a lot.  :)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 06:23:21 PM by MOwarrior »

avid1010

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2011, 09:37:47 PM »
I do not agree with either of you that it is a matter of personnel. 

Honestly, I'd like to see someone convince me that our defensive issues are anything but a scheme/coaching issue.  There are shorter teams that play good defense.  There are inexperienced teams that play good defense. 

Kevin O'Neill could get this roster to play better defense.  Deane could too.  Sh*t.  Crean could probably get this roster to play better defense.  Crean had a top 10 defense with Barro, Burke, and Fitzgerald in the post.

I think the scheme has to be looked at on both sides of the ball.  If MU consistently took the ball deep into the shot clock, didn't try to break at all, and wanted to play a half court game in the 60's I would imagine they could do so tomorrow.  I really like what Buzz does offensively.  I think they pay for it a bit on defense, and hopefully he finds ways to improve their defense as he gains experience and the type of recruits he desires.  ND didn't score tonight, but I wasn't overly impressed with MU's D.  The were able to have some success taking ND's clean looks away from their two best shooters.  If they could have done that to Pitt's two best shooters that game would have been very different as well.

brewcity77

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2011, 11:38:42 PM »
After tonight, I'd just like to say "wow". I seriously felt like I was watching a different team right from the start. Five minutes in I was amazed with our defense. We were quicker on rotations, we did a great job of rotating on to the open man when they passed out of the double team. Yes, there were some mistakes made, and some open jumpers that ND missed, but that was the kind of performance we need to see.

I'll be honest, I don't get how this is the same team we saw 2 days ago. Yes, Notre Dame lacked an inside presence, and isn't as quick as Pitt, but they're still a solid team that should have been a lot tougher. We were tenacious on the defensive end and frankly, I think we would have beaten pretty much any team in the country with that defensive effort. Blowing the doors off a highly ranked Notre Dame team? Very impressive.

Not everything is solved with one game, I fully realize that. Maybe this team simply needed time to figure it out. But I don't think that's it. I hope this isn't an aberration. But man-oh-man was that something else. Well done, boys.
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chren21

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2011, 11:44:10 PM »
I agree, very pleased with tonight other than the open 3's they missed early...  That set the tone along with following that up with lockdown D on ND's shooters after that.  Let's see if we can win on the road at UL.  I will try and temper my enthusiasm until then.

brewcity77

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2011, 11:48:15 PM »
I agree, very pleased with tonight other than the open 3's they missed early...  That set the tone along with following that up with lockdown D on ND's shooters after that.  Let's see if we can win on the road at UL.  I will try and temper my enthusiasm until then.

Agreed, and honestly, even if ND was hitting some of those open shots, we still would have won handily. Maybe not by 22, but still by double-digits. Their misses helped, but a number of times they got those open three attempts with 3-6 seconds left on the shot clock. It sucks to give up an open shot that late, but it's nice to see solid defense for 30 seconds rather than a team nailing an open 3 with 15-20 seconds left on the clock.
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2011, 12:27:25 AM »
I will finally chime in here on my interpretation of what Buzz likes to do on D--feeding off Billy the Kid.  I think of it this way:  He is like the Lovie Smith of Hoops--a Tampa Two analogy.  Zone the receivers in boxes/areas, play for turnovers, pressure the passer, constrict the running game, double team the ball once received looking for a turnover. Defense is an efficiency play to feed the offense with turnovers.  It is not a stop defense, IMO.
.
First and foremost, Buzz pressures the point guard 3/4ths. He wants to use up 10 seconds of the shot clock getting the ball up to delay the offensive flow, and he wants the ball out of the playmaker's hands as soon as the PG passes mid-court. (Think Cubbie, Reggie, Junior and Dwight).  

Second, he wants the shooters to receive the ball on the wing as they typically cannot create for themselves and are very trappable. When we trap, that leaves the cross-court wing open as the help side defender slides toward the middle to stop a drive if the wing reverses it back to the PG. Where MU gets burned is with a quick reversal to the open wing...even tonight...for a wide open look...but hopefully rushed. We have been slow to rotate in these instances.

Third, we typically back the post, but the help side defender stays closer to the post to try to deny or double in the paint.  MU's bigs are space eaters as their goal is simply to protect the paint. In the Revealed video, you saw Buzz reaming Junior on being slow to the rotation down low to set blocking positioning just out of the paint to constrict a wing driver.  In the Vandy game, the 'Dores flashed the post at the end and DW and Jae went to double the ball, leaving Otule to double guard the paint. MU is still not good at any of this as a team--it seems like it is a communication thing which will come. I thought they were very good tonight, however.

Switches: MU will fight over a pick but will not generally switch.  When you see Otule out on the perimeter with the picker, his goal is to stop the penetration of the dribbler and retreat.  MU gets beat often on switches on backpicks--aka how the Princeton offense is so successful with their back door cuts (dribbler drives to the pick, defense doubles and picker slides to the hoop unguarded).  

The reason he wants switchables, which A&M had, is they are athletic, strong but have disruptive wingspans (hard to throw over). He needs good footspeed (recovery on rotations) as well in our wing defenders. He has wingspan today on the roster, but Wilson or Anderson are more protypical.

Buzz's D seems to me a bit scattered at times in terms of what he wants to scheme--perimeter, interior, in-bounding, match-up, slow rotations. And then he throws in a 3-2 zone to limit the perimeter, but we get burned inside.

The ND game I thought was a great scheme--they knew that to stop ND, you stopped their only playmaker--Psycho B.  Make the frosh Atkins beat you on the road.  With Scott out, MU could control/limit the paint.

But, Buzz makes the big $$ and I am a keyboard PG so what do I know. Others feel free to add your 2 cents. The team is really starting to come together but we do have a long ways to go on Team D yet. Sorry for the opus.  
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 12:34:50 AM by Dr. Blackheart »

Henry Sugar

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Re: The Defense Issue
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2011, 09:02:16 AM »
Dr, that's a really interesting perspective, which I appreciate.
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