JUCO's Lead Way...

[Lennys Tap]

I have to wonder if the TC excuse will be used in years 5, 7 and 9.  I sure hope so, it keeps the board running.

The "TC excuse will expire " as you call it, or reality, as any fair minded person refers to it, will expire after next year, when the second empty class Crean left us graduates.

[Golden Avalanche]

I have to wonder if the TC excuse will be used in years 5, 7 and 9.  I sure hope so, it keeps the board running.

We can totally ignore whiffs on players that way, whiffs that also take 2 to 3 years to recover because we lose that player, have to sign a new one usually two years after the original player committed.  Nah, that has nothing to do with it. 

I thought the same thing reading this thread.

I understand some JUCOs were needed to plug holes when we lost Taylor, Williams, and Christopherson (perhaps even including Mbakwe) but why is Crean to blame for the openings caused by Clark being dropped, Roseboro and Newbill not being taken, missing on flyers McMorrow and Mbao, and then losing semester transfers Maymon and Smith?

Buzz has done well with his JUCOs, but, to focus on that alone while absolving him of mistakes made on his gambles (and, in turn, blaming Crean) takes the shine out of the former.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The "TC excuse will expire " as you call it, or reality, as any fair minded person refers to it, will expire after next year, when the second empty class Crean left us graduates.

I see...interesting.  Can I hold you to that or is there an exemption clause somewhere?

I'm curious since he left 2.5 seasons ago, what we've been doing to fill the void in classes?

[ChicosBailBonds]

I understand some JUCOs were needed to plug holes when we lost Taylor, Williams, and Christopherson (perhaps even including Mbakwe) but why is Crean to blame for the openings caused by Clark being dropped, Roseboro and Newbill not being taken, missing on flyers McMorrow and Mbao, and then losing semester transfers Maymon and Smith?

Shhhh....don't bring logic into the discussion, it ruins the whole Crean hatefest they have going on.  You know what, I'll bet I could be Lenny and make a statement that the "Vast majority of his posts referencing Crean are negative"...difference is, I would be right and he would admit it also.

Of course, any sensible person without an agenda (please exclude Ners, Lenny and 3 or 4 others) absolutely cannot ignore Maymon, McMorrow, Mbao, Clark, Roseboro, Smith, Newbill, etc because they all came at Buzz's direction. 7+ players...no no no, those are Crean's fault, not Buzz.  It's almost too precious to read anymore, but these clowns actually believe it.

[Lennys Tap]

Bullshyte.  This thread was started for you to get your rocks off and try to rub some dirt in people's faces.

When someone who leads the league in staring threads to get his rocks off and rub dirt in others faces goes all whiney when the tables are turned I have to laugh. True hypocrisy.

[brewcity77]

Crean left in a douchebag fashion after leveraging offers for raises from Marquette for years. I personally don't blame him for the state we're in, and try not to think about him, but I also don't blame anyone for slinging mud in his general direction any more than I would blame them for slinging mud at a guy like Huggins (also a douchebag, though for different reasons).

While the "blame TC" should logically go away once Williams and Cadougan are seniors, he's still going to get mud slung at him from Marquette fans who simply don't like him. I don't think you can blame anyone for that.

[ChicosBailBonds]

When someone who leads the league in staring threads to get his rocks off and rub dirt in others faces goes all whiney when the tables are turned I have to laugh. True hypocrisy.

I man up and admit it.  Ners doesn't and even lies about what his intentions are.  Sorry you don't understand the difference, probably too nuanced for you. 

[NersEllenson]

but why is Crean to blame for the openings caused by Clark being dropped, Roseboro and Newbill not being taken, missing on flyers McMorrow and Mbao, and then losing semester transfers Maymon and Smith?

Where did anybody blame Crean for the above in this thread?  The answer?  No where.  So why try to make something out of nothing?  I probably could have added you to the Chicos and Marquette 84 faction..but generally you seem to not be so blatantly obvious.  

[ChicosBailBonds]

Where did anybody blame Crean for the above in this thread?  The answer?  No where.  So why try to make something out of nothing?  I probably could have added you to the Chicos and Marquette 84 faction..but generally you seem to not be so blatantly obvious.  

You can't be this dense....wait....yes you can.   MU is in this pickle because of Crean, don't you get it?  Didn't your read the memo or the very posts IN THIS THREAD?  It's not because of Buzz's misses, no...it's because of a guy that left 2.5 years ago.


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=23225.msg256820#msg256820

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=23225.msg256772#msg256772

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=23225.msg256840#msg256840

[NersEllenson]

I man up and admit it.  Ners doesn't and even lies about what his intentions are.  Sorry you don't understand the difference, probably too nuanced for you. 

Chicos - The irony of all of this is I never had bad-will toward Tom Crean..but after being a member here for 1.5 years and seeing how ridiculous you are in your persecution of Buzz and defense of Tom Crean..it's made me disgusted.  Here is a post of mine....go look at my first posts as an MUScoop member numbers 1710 and 1711..I defend the crap out of Crean...but over time, seeing as to how primarily YOU and 84 always cast Buzz in a bad light...I lose all respect..as I was objective initially in my evaluation of you...but you get what you earn.  I suspect others here feel the same way..and this is largely why TC gets a bad rap around here..due to you.

Posted by me November 21, 2009
"While I've never had any personal dealings with Tom Crean, and I've read here some people who have thought he evloved into an ass - I do think it is time for people to get off the Tom Crean Hate Wagon.  Stating the obvious, but the Tom Crean era really turned the image and perception of Marquette Basketball around.  The Al MacGuire center became a reality - a much needed facility/tool needed for training and recruiting.  Crean brought Buzz Williams on staff, and left behind a great situation for Buzz.  Buzz is taking the torch and running with it, and all signs indicate he could take the program to a level not seen since Al.  I just wish more MU fans would show some gratitude to Tom Crean.  Some posters here come off as bitter, even whiney girl types.  Who cares is Tom Crean used a tanning bed or not??  Really people.  Stop dissecting the guy and be grateful for what he did for our program.  Time to get over it."

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos - The irony of all of this is I never had bad-will toward Tom Crean..but after being a member here for 1.5 years and seeing how ridiculous you are in your persecution of Buzz and defense of Tom Crean..it's made me disgusted.  Here is a post of mine....go look at my first posts as an MUScoop member numbers 1710 and 1711..I defend the crap out of Crean...but over time, seeing as to how primarily YOU and 84 always cast Buzz in a bad light...I lose all respect..as I was objective initially in my evaluation of you...but you get what you earn.  I suspect others here feel the same way..and this is largely why TC gets a bad rap around here..due to you.

Posted by me November 21, 2009
"While I've never had any personal dealings with Tom Crean, and I've read here some people who have thought he evloved into an ass - I do think it is time for people to get off the Tom Crean Hate Wagon.  Stating the obvious, but the Tom Crean era really turned the image and perception of Marquette Basketball around.  The Al MacGuire center became a reality - a much needed facility/tool needed for training and recruiting.  Crean brought Buzz Williams on staff, and left behind a great situation for Buzz.  Buzz is taking the torch and running with it, and all signs indicate he could take the program to a level not seen since Al.  I just wish more MU fans would show some gratitude to Tom Crean.  Some posters here come off as bitter, even whiney girl types.  Who cares is Tom Crean used a tanning bed or not??  Really people.  Stop dissecting the guy and be grateful for what he did for our program.  Time to get over it."

And the bigger irony, Ners, is I've said he is an ass and said it many times.  I had to work for the guy, something 99.999% of people here never had to do.  I saw it upfront and personal.  Guess what, I had to work for Bobby Knight, too....not all people are sunshine, gumdrops, unicorns and sweet tea.  Nor do I expect them to be.  Just as really nice guys can dick over people, too...see Newbill.  It comes from all sorts, Ners.  Good guys, a-holes, etc.  Welcome to reality.

I've said time and time again, I think Buzz is a very nice guy and a good coach.  For whatever reason, these words continue to get lost on you and I don't know why.

At the end of the day, I want our head coach to win games, compete, graduate players, stay out of any NCAA investigations or dust-ups, etc.  And yes, I would prefer we have a minimum number of JUCO players for many of the reasons I stated back in 2009 and MU84 posted today, it just makes good sense in terms of stability.

I don't start Tom Crean threads, I don't start Tom Crean posts within threads.  I will, however, respond when people make ridiculous statements in threads about KO, Crean, Majerus, whomever.  I offer no apologies for that.  I tip my hat to what TC did at MU, which was rebuild MU to a power program, something we hadn't had in three decades.  For hiring Buzz, for getting us into the Big East, for a Final Four, for graduating nearly every player, for not having any NCAA issues, etc.  All of those are a tip of the hat.

I am not persecuting Buzz, you just are so wrapped around his johnson that if anyone says ANYTHING about him you get so puckered up you can't help yourself. 

Point blank, are people on this board or elsewhere allowed to question Buzz's coaching, recruiting, tactics, etc?  YES OR NO?

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

Of course, any sensible person without an agenda (please exclude Ners, Lenny and 3 or 4 others) absolutely cannot ignore Maymon, McMorrow, Mbao, Clark, Roseboro, Smith, Newbill, etc because they all came at Buzz's direction. 7+ players...no no no, those are Crean's fault, not Buzz.  It's almost too precious to read anymore, but these clowns actually believe it.

I'mnot sure McMorrow should be included in this list. His situation appears to me (an admitted outsider) to be very unusual. Is there some reason Buzz would have dumped him without the medical condition?

[Lennys Tap]

I see...interesting.  Can I hold you to that or is there an exemption clause somewhere?

I'm curious since he left 2.5 seasons ago, what we've been doing to fill the void in classes?

You don't have to hold me to anything. No exemptions. What Crean did to MU to make them less competitive on the court ends next year when the last of his empty classes graduates.

Can't make any sense out of your last question.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Can't make any sense out of your last question.

Let me assist.

One assumes the current staff has been adding players to the team to fill in the gaps left by the guy who left 2.5 years ago.  Correct?  Have those guys all panned out?  Are they all here?  Are they all playing?  Do they have zero impact on MU or is everything tied to the former coach that left 1006 days ago?

[Lennys Tap]

I man up and admit it.  Ners doesn't and even lies about what his intentions are.  Sorry you don't understand the difference, probably too nuanced for you. 

So you concede that you lead the league in starting threads to get your own rocks off and rubbing people's faces in the dirt (i.e., acting like a total douche) - but because you "man up" and admit that you  do it more frequently than anyone else it mitigates your douchebaggery? Interesting.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So you concede that you lead the league in starting threads to get your own rocks off and rubbing people's faces in the dirt (i.e., acting like a total douche) - but because you "man up" and admit that you  do it more frequently than anyone else it mitigates your douchebaggery? Interesting.

I admit that I start some threads like that just as others do here.  That's what I admit.  I admit that I'm a douchebag sometimes.  I also admit that I love exposing other douchebags like yourself that are INCAPABLE of admitting Summer's Eve oozes from every cell in their body.

Now, about the guy that left 1006 days ago, I'm curious why you haven't answered that question? 

[warthog-driver]

Al never signed a guy from Saddleback, so not much of a pipeline. 

If you mean Saddleback's coach Bill Mulligan sent multiple players to MU, you'd be correct.  Jerome Whitehead played for Mulligan at Riverside Community College and Raymonds signed Artie Green out of Mulligan coached Saddleback a few short years later.

Ted...you are correct, sir. Mulligan was the connection. BM ended up at Saddleback but he sent a lot of guys Al's way. We didn't take all of them but Al usually had first dibs. The point being, MU has always had no problem taking Jucos; this did not start with Buzz. Imagine the 77 team without The Aircraft Carrier...no J, no banner.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ted...you are correct, sir. Mulligan was the connection. BM ended up at Saddleback but he sent a lot of guys Al's way. We didn't take all of them but Al usually had first dibs. The point being, MU has always had no problem taking Jucos; this did not start with Buzz. Imagine the 77 team without The Aircraft Carrier...no J, no banner.

Nor has anyone ever said it started with Buzz.  The question was whether we've ever had this many JUCOs on the team at one time and whether that was a good idea long term?  Ners implies we should keep on keeping on going after 2 year players from the JUCO ranks.

I disagree and I'm not alone.  Others believe we should.  When you have as many JUCOs as we have had, it means constant turnover.  There's a reason he Buzz went down this path to fix some roster holes, now the question is whether we continue in that direction.

[Blackhat]

It's apparent by now Buzz goes through whichever avenue he has to to get the players he needs.  Given he's got JUCO connections too I don't think he'll abandon that area.   


You can chat about how'd you like it but it'll be done his way as long as he's coach.

Personally, I like have top level JUCO's on the team.

[NersEllenson]

Nor has anyone ever said it started with Buzz.  The question was whether we've ever had this many JUCOs on the team at one time and whether that was a good idea long term?  Ners implies we should keep on keeping on going after 2 year players from the JUCO ranks.

I disagree and I'm not alone.  Others believe we should.  When you have as many JUCOs as we have had, it means constant turnover.  There's a reason he Buzz went down this path to fix some roster holes, now the question is whether we continue in that direction.

Was DJO a 2 year JUCO?  Jimmy Butler a 2-year JUCO? Did I ever say I wanted us to exclusively go after 2 year JUCOs?  Please find where I "implied" I wanted us to go after exclusively 2 year JUCOs.  Just because we have JUCO's does not mean "we have constant turnover."  Completely false premise.  We chose to keep 1 scholarship open for this spring (probably for either a transfer, high school player or JUCO - whoever looks like the best fit for what the team needs after evaluating the team play this whole year.)  Actually that is kind of beneficial..as we are able to see the teams weaknesses.

My point in all of this is that I'm all for bringing in the best players, with good character, that give us the best chance at winning.  Don't care if they come via JUCO, transfer or straight out of high school.

And let's get real..3 out of the 4 JUCO's were signed to account for the transfers due to Tom Crean moving on (or Buzz's inability or lack of desire to keep Scotty, Trevor, Tyshawn, Nick Williams, etc).  Is it really a bad thing to sign a Crowder - a JUCO player of the year?  Nope.  Plus JUCO's don't have the silver spoon mentality as was posted here, and won't transfer at the first sign of adversity - Reggie Smith, Jerrone Maymon, or any other entitled kid straight out of high school.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Nor did I say it was bad to have Crowder or DJO or Butler...see, this works both ways Ners.  I've said, however, long term I don't think we want to keep going in this direction.

DB just got here and he's gone in 2.5 months.

Crowder is playing very well, he'll be gone next year.

Certainly heavy contributors, but it would be nice to get guys that are going to be here for four years, buy into the system for four year.  Stability, etc.  Even the three year guys are only here for 3 years.  There's a reason why the top programs in the country mostly use 4 year players and only go JUCO to supplement the talent.  We've gone the direction of having JUCOs dominate the talent level.  Yes, we all know why, it's been beaten to death.

The question is whether the long term good of the program is to keep running through guys that have 2 or 3 years of eligibility in the quantities we have.  I don't think that's a good idea.  Do you?

[Golden Avalanche]

I probably could have added you to the Chicos and Marquette 84 faction..but generally you seem to not be so blatantly obvious.  

Forgive me, but I have no idea what this even means. Is this a list of terrorists or something you compile for Homeland Security?

[NersEllenson]

Nor did I say it was bad to have Crowder or DJO or Butler...see, this works both ways Ners.  I've said, however, long term I don't think we want to keep going in this direction.

DB just got here and he's gone in 2.5 months.

Crowder is playing very well, he'll be gone next year.

Certainly heavy contributors, but it would be nice to get guys that are going to be here for four years, buy into the system for four year.  Stability, etc.  Even the three year guys are only here for 3 years.  There's a reason why the top programs in the country mostly use 4 year players and only go JUCO to supplement the talent.  We've gone the direction of having JUCOs dominate the talent level.  Yes, we all know why, it's been beaten to death.

The question is whether the long term good of the program is to keep running through guys that have 2 or 3 years of eligibility in the quantities we have.  I don't think that's a good idea.  Do you?

Like I said, if the JUCO's we bring in are like the ones we've brought in thus far - good kids first and foremost, and very good basketball players - I don't see it as not being a "good idea??"  Some will be here 2 years, others 3..if they contribute positively..I'm all for it.  As for stability..it is MUCH more likely that a high school signee TRANSFERS, than does a JUCO.

As for the PM you sent me...it is comical that someone here e-mailed you stating that I never went to Marquette, but am only a fan due to my Texas roots and connection to Buzz.  First, I have no connection to Buzz..other than I like the guy, and can recogniz that he clearly has "it."  And I've mentioned here before my close ties to the program form 1992-1997.  Saw you mentioned your relationship with Mike Rice...I had one too..he asked me to coach at the MU baskteball camp for 2 summers. Played a lot of pick up ball with Mike..and golf as well..and shared a fw beers he served up at Hegarty's over the summers.

[Lennys Tap]

Let me assist.

One assumes the current staff has been adding players to the team to fill in the gaps left by the guy who left 2.5 years ago.  Correct?  Have those guys all panned out?  Are they all here?  Are they all playing?  Do they have zero impact on MU or is everything tied to the former coach that left 1006 days ago?

Of course they haven't "all panned out". Is it realistic to expect a program to have 13 great players who are ecstatic with their roles, playing time, etc.? I didn't expect that of TC and don't expect it of Buzz. If you do (or did) I think your expectations are unrealistic.


I will say this. I'd rather lose guys to transfer who have some ability but who are unhappy with their role (Maymon and Smith) than sign guys who can't play (Roseboro, Berkowitz, Blackledge, etc) whether they stick around or not.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't expect that, Lenny.  All players don't pan out and anyone that believes they would is foolish. 

Which leads me back to the original question why you use an excuse that is over 1000 days old now and not call an ace and ace.  Was MU left with holes by the previous regime?  Hell yes.  Has THIS regime missed on some players?  Hell yes.   Is it beyond stupid 1000+ days later to be blaming any shortcomings this team has on a previous regime when this regime has had more than their share of misses with players?  Hell Yes.  Yet that's what you do.