JUCO's Lead Way...

[NersEllenson]

There was a lot of chatter here earlier this summer - from one board member in particular - regarding how squirmish our continued recrutiment of JUCO's made him...due to image reasons, etc.

As this season moves forward are best 4 players are:  Butler, DJO, Crowder, Buycks (of course all JUCO's)

Thank you Buzz for having some connections at the JUCO level and keeping the MU program at a high level.  Due to MU being able to recruit these JUCO's we haven't had to face the drop off many projected after Tom Crean left.  It's been nice to see these kids develop as players and people.  They have all been model citizens at MU, and are performing at a high level.  The only downside is we don't get to enjoy "knowing" them for 4 years.

Here's to hoping Buzz continues to keep the JUCO pipeline open for the right kinds of kids/players.  Equal opportunity is a calling card of a Jesuit education/university.

[warthog-driver]

There was a lot of chatter here earlier this summer - from one board member in particular - regarding how squirmish our continued recrutiment of JUCO's made him...due to image reasons, etc. As this season moves forward are best 4 players are:  Butler, DJO, Crowder, Buycks (of course all JUCO's) Thank you Buzz for having some connections at the JUCO level and keeping the MU program at a high level.  Due to MU being able to recruit these JUCO's we haven't had to face the drop off many projected after Tom Crean left.  It's been nice to see these kids develop as players and people.  They have all been model citizens at MU, and are performing at a high level.  The only downside is we don't get to enjoy "knowing" them for 4 years. Here's to hoping Buzz continues to keep the JUCO pipeline open for the right kinds of kids/players.  Equal opportunity is a calling card of a Jesuit education/university.

Al had a hard pipeline to Saddleback Community College. We don't have a Natl Championship without Jucos

[4everwarriors]

Buzz sees the value of JUCOs and the experience they can bring. In the present situation, there was no choice but to go the JUCO route or play a bunch of freshmen and sophomores. Tommy Boy took care of that real well.

[Tugg Speedman]

None of the Jucos Buzz has recruited have given us any reason to be squirmish in the slightest.  Keep'em coming Buzz.

You want a squirmish thought ... imagine the 2003 rumours turned out to be true ...

* Roy Williams goes from Kansas to UNC
* Bill Self goes from Illinois to Kansas
* Crean was suppose to go from MU to Illinois
* Then Bruce Pearl was going to leave UWM to take an open MU

What would be the state of our program today?

[nyg]

Anyone got a site/link to review the top JUCO candidates for our potential two openings

[brewcity77]

Anyone got a site/link to review the top JUCO candidates for our potential two openings

It's usually really hard to find any info on top JUCOs. But after doing some digging, I did find this page:

http://rivals.yahoo.com/jucojunction/basketball/recruiting/rankings/rank-2769;_ylt=An32wQgTUuaceQbgIW2JfRVrWpB4

Last year they had Jae Crowder as the #14 JUCO prospect, and there's a few familiar names on this one, including Montarale Clark and God's Gift Achiuwa. However, they don't list us as being in on Achiuwa, nor do they mention St. John's, and from what I've read we're the two leading candidates for him. Doesn't seem to be nearly as updated as the regular Rivals board is, but it's something.

[nyg]

Thanks.  Noticed Johny Lacy on the board also. 

[GGGG]

Is Lacy still facing felony charges in Providence?  He announced his transfer *before* his arrest, which means IMO that he didn't think he was getting playing time at PC.  Honestly, I doubt he is BE material and we would only get him for two years anyway.  Unless he has vastly improved, and coaches have lost all faith in Junior to run the point...

[4everwarriors]

None of the Jucos Buzz has recruited have given us any reason to be squirmish in the slightest.  Keep'em coming Buzz.

You want a squirmish thought ... imagine the 2003 rumours turned out to be true ...

* Roy Williams goes from Kansas to UNC
* Bill Self goes from Illinois to Kansas
* Crean was suppose to go from MU to Illinois
* Then Bruce Pearl was going to leave UWM to take an open MU

What would be the state of our program today?

Orwell,
I can tell you and everyone else in the world that Bruce was never in play for MU. Take it to the bank. Also, for everyone's information, so that these rumors flame out, the University of Illinois never offered Crean. Were not mesmerized by him at the interview. Bank it as well.

[Tugg Speedman]

Orwell,
I can tell you and everyone else in the world that Bruce was never in play for MU. Take it to the bank. Also, for everyone's information, so that these rumors flame out, the University of Illinois never offered Crean. Were not mesmerized by him at the interview. Bank it as well.

Are you sure???  I read it in Andy Katz's column and he's never wrong.  That's why he gets to play basketball with Obama.

[wildbillsb]

Al had a hard pipeline to Saddleback Community College. We don't have a Natl Championship without Jucos

Wasn't it Rick's pipeline?  RM was tight with the Irishman from Chicago (can't remember his name) who was the coach at Saddleback?

[TedBaxter]

Al had a hard pipeline to Saddleback Community College. We don't have a Natl Championship without Jucos

Al never signed a guy from Saddleback, so not much of a pipeline. 

If you mean Saddleback's coach Bill Mulligan sent multiple players to MU, you'd be correct.  Jerome Whitehead played for Mulligan at Riverside Community College and Raymonds signed Artie Green out of Mulligan coached Saddleback a few short years later.

[NersEllenson]

At the end of the day, there just isn't much high major talent in Wisconsin - maybe 2-3 players per year - and generally UW has had a slight advantage in getting those kids.  So, every program has to have its lifeline for talent.  If the JUCO route becomes Marquette's - and the caliber and quality of kids continue to be what they've been - MU should continue to try to land JUCO Players of the Year, 1st Team All-Americans, etc.

On another note - I'm sure it won't be long before someone attempts to say that Buzz can't develop high school players..as I'd seen over the summer.  The reality is that Buzz's first High School recruits are just sophomores - Cadougan and Williams.  Seems Vander and Gardner have shown enough to put to rest that complaint...and Otule has shown some flashes of having come a long way.

[radome]

Buzz has also talked about JUCOs as not having the feeling of entitlement (my summary not his exact words) that occurs with Freshmen. He indicates that the JUCOs appreciate the silver spoon treatment and he likes to have them around.

[ChicosBailBonds]

There was a lot of chatter here earlier this summer - from one board member in particular - regarding how squirmish our continued recrutiment of JUCO's made him...due to image reasons, etc.

As this season moves forward are best 4 players are:  Butler, DJO, Crowder, Buycks (of course all JUCO's)

Thank you Buzz for having some connections at the JUCO level and keeping the MU program at a high level.  Due to MU being able to recruit these JUCO's we haven't had to face the drop off many projected after Tom Crean left.  It's been nice to see these kids develop as players and people.  They have all been model citizens at MU, and are performing at a high level.  The only downside is we don't get to enjoy "knowing" them for 4 years.

Here's to hoping Buzz continues to keep the JUCO pipeline open for the right kinds of kids/players.  Equal opportunity is a calling card of a Jesuit education/university.

Ners, you know I apologized publicly here for my comments about JUCO players 6 months ago and now you bring this up?  I've held up my bargain.   For your memory cells  
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21172.0

Oh, and way back in 2009   http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15452.msg147776#msg147776

You really do want to keep playing this game, don't you....even after someone said they won't go there anymore?  Interesting.



As for the squeamish part, wrong, at least that wasn't the main reason.  My squeamish feelings come from continuing to recruit kids that have already verballed elsewhere, trying to get kids to transfer that are under scholarship elsewhere (against NCAA rules), running off players when we sign them to NLIs, etc, etc.  That's what makes me squeamish.

And yes, Crean left the classes in bad shape after year 3.  Equally so, going after complete red flags like Jerrone Maymon did the same thing, but for whatever reason that never crosses your keyboard.  

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I like our JUCOs, but I don't want a program built on them forever.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I like our JUCOs, but I don't want a program built on them forever.

+1  Which is what I said back in 2009 and 2010.  For stability reasons, we need kids here for four years, not 2 years that take half to a full season to get up to speed (Crowder being an exception).

[Lennys Tap]

When you are left in the lurch in year three (with no holdovers from the previous regime) jucos and/or transfers are a necessity (unless you're Kentucky). Buzz got Butler, DJO, Buycks and Crowder. TC got some stiffs from junior college and a stiff transfer (Rivers). When people criticize what we look like after a total roster turnover in three years maybe a look at a similar situation at a top 6 program 300 miles southeast would prove enlightening.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I have to wonder if the TC excuse will be used in years 5, 7 and 9.  I sure hope so, it keeps the board running.

We can totally ignore whiffs on players that way, whiffs that also take 2 to 3 years to recover because we lose that player, have to sign a new one usually two years after the original player committed.  Nah, that has nothing to do with it. 

[Marquette84]

In general, I would prefer we minimize the number of JUCO's on the team. It has nothing to do with the personality of the coach, but some valid reasons:

1.  Added recruiting time/cost/effort.  Jucos last about half as long as a four-year player, so you have to recruit twice as many of them over time.  

2.  Like it or not, there is a national perception that JUCOs reflect a compromised academic standard.  You don't see four or five JUCOs on the team at schools like Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Boston College, Villanova, Xavier, St. Louis, Bradley, Dayton, Butler, etc.

3.  It institutionalizes the common complaint that we don't have enough 3- and 4-year players on the team.  Jucos simply don't stay that long.  Bucyks or Crowder will never be a 4-year player at MU.  Given that many feel that one of our problems THIS year is lack of juniors and seniors, then it is inconsistent to turn around and claim that you support recruiting JUCOs--since those players typically won't get to a 3rd or 4th season.

Ironically, the biggest supporters of JUCOs on this board are the very same people who will turn around and rip the previous coach because we don't have any 4-year seniors.  Well, which is it?  Are 4-year players that important?  If yes, then how can you like JUCOs?

4.  The best players in college don't come from the JUCO ranks. Check the NBA mock draft board for 2011.  Check the Naismith awards lists.  You won't find many former JUCO names.

5.  It perpetuates the "inexperience" excuse for low expectations.  You can be a 24 year old senior on the team (with 4 years of HS, a year of prep, 2 years of JUCO before a junior season at MU) and someone will be making the claim that we can't expect much because "he only has one year of D1 experience."

6.  It puts questions in the heads of your current roster as to where they stand on the team.  Take the scenario of God's Gift Achiuwa.  If he comes in, he's a junior--same as Otule, and one year ahead of Gardner, all three playing the same position.  What are you to think if you're Otule and Gardner?  And what type of hurt is the team in two years hence, when both Otule and Achiuwa leave in the same season?  

And please, spare me the "we have a deep roster" argument.  Yesterday we used 8 players, only 7 of them got more than 10 minutes.  Crowder with 39 minutes, Butler 35, Otule & DJO both 29, Buycks 27.  Despite what some have called the deepest roster 1-12 that we've ever had, Buzz gives his top seven the majority of minutes.  And the top 7 isn't going to include 3 centers--two maybe, but not three.  


In my mind, the ideal strategy is to recruit players capable of starting from day one, but not needed until year 2.  The PG transition from Miller to Hutchins or Henry to Diener is ideal example.   Or if you want a non-MU example, how about Keemba Walker or Maalik Wayns--starting quality, but getting strong minutes as frosh, willing to wait one year to become the 3-year starter.

The second best would be to bring in 4-year starters--players like McNeal, Matthews, James or Blue.  And then give them sufficient time to get through the growing pains.  This is the approach Lavin is taking at St. Johns.  Eight recruits, seven frosh (six in ESPN's top 100).  O'Niell took a similar approach when he arrived at MU.  

[brewcity77]

Well, hopefully having Otule, Cadougan, and Williams all reaching their junior years next year will help get us to the point where we are primarily recruiting freshmen. I still think we could use another JUCO this year, whether it's a more experienced point guard to help ease the load on Caddy and Blue or an experienced big man to provide a running mate for Otule and Gardner so we can have two legitimate bigs in the game at the same time.

Two schollies left, and at this point of the recruiting cycle, it often seems the best players available are JUCO transfers. But I hope that in two years, when we will likely have seniors like Otule and Cadougan and juniors like Blue, Wilson, and Gardner, the need for using JUCOs to provide experience and balance the classes will decline. Nothing wrong with going for them, but I agree with what Chicos said in one of his links that I would prefer four-year players when it is possible.

[NersEllenson]

Basically, once again...anything that contibutes to the success of the Marquette Basketball program under Buzz Williams isn't the right way of doing things for Chicos and Marquette84.

This thread was started to highlight the contributions our JUCO players are making on the court, how they are performing off the court, and how they are representing Marquette University - after a summer in which a select few here continued to complain about recruiting JUCO's.

Why the complaints?  One simple reason - because they are helping Marquette be successful under Buzz Williams - which some continue to have a ridiculous agenda against even though they are allegedly MU fans.

[NersEllenson]

As for the squeamish part, wrong, at least that wasn't the main reason.  My squeamish feelings come from continuing to recruit kids that have already verballed elsewhere, trying to get kids to transfer that are under scholarship elsewhere (against NCAA rules), running off players when we sign them to NLIs, etc, etc.  That's what makes me squeamish.

So in other words things like: 1) Trying to get Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor to break their NLI's with MU and go to IU?  2) Oversigning, such as the Damien Saunders scenario and Jamil Wilson scenario?

I get it.  Standard Double Standards for you.  Rumors you "hear from people in the know," are true as it pertains to MU recruiting under Buzz, but if your boy Tommy C does the same at IU - of course it is different and your sources tell you as much.

This thread wasn't started to devolve into this..but again to highlight the great contributions our JUCO players are making..but once again you can't help yourself from yourself.  Trying to protect your agenda and having a double standard invariably leads to putting your foot in your mouth..over and over..and over again.  Give it up.  It's 2011.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Basically, once again...anything that contibutes to the success of the Marquette Basketball program under Buzz Williams isn't the right way of doing things for Chicos and Marquette84.

This thread was started to highlight the contributions our JUCO players are making on the court, how they are performing off the court, and how they are representing Marquette University - after a summer in which a select few here continued to complain about recruiting JUCO's.

Why the complaints?  One simple reason - because they are helping Marquette be successful under Buzz Williams - which some continue to have a ridiculous agenda against even though they are allegedly MU fans.

Bullshyte.  This thread was started for you to get your rocks off and try to rub some dirt in people's faces.

What's worse, you've ignored the threads and posts of the very people you are attacking who have praised these JUCOs, because it doesn't fit into your little attack sequence.

At the end of the day, MU needs 4 year players for all the obvious reasons.  It's terrific that the JUCOs led the way yesterday. It's not a long term viable strategy.

On a side note, it's ironic as hell that you start this thread considering your affliction toward players that led our team the last two years to the NCAA tournament considering they were players brought in by someone you despise.  The double standards by you continue daily, keep them coming.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So in other words things like: 1) Trying to get Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor to break their NLI's with MU and go to IU?  2) Oversigning, such as the Damien Saunders scenario and Jamil Wilson scenario?

I get it.  Standard Double Standards for you.  Rumors you "hear from people in the know," are true as it pertains to MU recruiting under Buzz, but if your boy Tommy C does the same at IU - of course it is different and your sources tell you as much.

This thread wasn't started to devolve into this..but again to highlight the great contributions our JUCO players are making..but once again you can't help yourself from yourself.  Trying to protect your agenda and have a double standard invariably leads to putting your foot in your mouth..over and over..and over again.  Give it up.  It's 2011.

This is exactly why you started this thread or you wouldn't have put all the other comments in there.  You know EXACTLY why you started it.  Give it up.  It's 2011

Better get your facts straight Ners, because you're wrong again on several fronts.  Buzz didn't want Nick Williams so there was no NLI to break. He was released immediately because Williams said he was going with Crean.  No need to break the NLI on that one, it was going to happen and MUTUALLY AGREED UPON.   On some of the others, you are correct, but at least get your facts straight.  I realize the Metroplex is a bit more on appearances and lacking in facts down there, try to get some.