nice to see maymon 0-1

[warthog-driver]

So, any player that transfers is despicable? Or are there valid reasons?
What makes Maymon any different than any other transfer?  And, of course, you are totally aware of all the details that went on in the move, correct? Otherwise, such sweeping statements would be.....despicable.

I have no problem with people making transitions. I have made a couple in my life. My point about Maymon is that he left in the middle of a season.

[Lennys Tap]

And let me also add, that your world's standards are set up for reasons that really aren't comperable to the rest of society.  So don't be all high and mighty because of it.

Good for Warthog's world. Too bad for yours. The notion that you have earned the right to call him names may work in your world. Not mine.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I have no problem with people making transitions. I have made a couple in my life. My point about Maymon is that he left in the middle of a season.

I hear where you are coming from, and believe me, if the rest of society operated under the same principles as the military and you personally, the world would be a far different and much better place.  

The posters saying that JM is only a basketball player and therefore the same standards for personal conduct and integrity don't apply are way off base and a sad reflection on us all.  The same standards should absolutely apply to every single one of us.

What may be different in this situation is that, if it went down as purported on this board, it wasn't JM's decision to leave.  Rather, he was forced to leave due to the actions of his father.  If that is truly the case, then one can only feel bad for JM, and hope that he has learned from the situation and uses it for his personal gain.  

[warthog-driver]

I guess I question whether you think that all players who transfer are selfish people who are betraying brotherhood or if your big problem is with the way that Jeronne left. For example, do you think that Dwyane Wade's decision to leave school early for the NBA was breaking ranks because he did not honor his 4-year commitment to play at MU?

Mustache, My issue with Maymon is that he bolted in the middle of a season. Do you remember how terrible you felt for the team wehen you heard that news? Was the news not shocking? Did you not grasp for understanding? Ona visceral level you knew his action was wrong.

Had he finished out the season and transferred I would have respected his decision. Unfortunately, he turned his back on team and brothers in a shocking, crass, and vulgar manner. His behavior is beneath contempt.

As for his age or father's influence being a factor? I have cited the brave 18-24 year old men and women who serve their nation with honor. I do know on a personal basis many of these great Americans are from disadvantaged backgrounds. I do know some had only a single parent. I do know some had no parent. I do know most are from the "other side of the tracks." There was no opportunity to attend college; it was never a consideration. And yet they have the maturity, discipline, and character to make the right decisions routinely. Do I respect them? Let me put it this way: I place my life in their very capable hands.

[Henry Sugar]

Taking responsibility, honoring one's word, and acting with moral courage don't apply to "the rest of society??" Good Lord but that is pathetic. There are a few Jesuits who visit this site. I believe they have some perspective on the need for integrity in thought and action. I have never heard that Character must be limited to certain segments of society.

Where is your outrage at Buzz?  He has not honored his commitment or taken responsibility for Hazel, Mbao, Roseboro, and Newbill.  He has failed to honor his commitment multiple times in this manner.  Even more egregiously, Buzz has done this as the leader of Marquette's program.  We should expect more of the leader vs a simple member of the team. 

By your own standards, why is Buzz not despicable?

Or is your contempt only reserved for the student with the crazy dad?  The same crazy dad that provides Jeronne with the greatest level of commitment, loyalty, and love.

[Henry Sugar]

The posters saying that JM is only a basketball player and therefore the same standards for personal conduct and integrity don't apply are way off base and a sad reflection on us all.  The same standards should absolutely apply to every single one of us.

You have missed the point.  My point is that warthog's constant analogies to the military are misguided.  College basketball is not the military. 

But yes, integrity should also apply to college coaches.  Too bad that's not the real world.

What may be different in this situation is that, if it went down as purported on this board, it wasn't JM's decision to leave.  Rather, he was forced to leave due to the actions of his father.  If that is truly the case, then one can only feel bad for JM, and hope that he has learned from the situation and uses it for his personal gain.  

This is my point entirely.  Jeronne was forced to choose between Marquette and his family.

[reinko]

Where is your outrage at Buzz?  He has not honored his commitment or taken responsibility for Hazel, Mbao, Roseboro, and Newbill.  He has failed to honor his commitment multiple times in this manner.  Even more egregiously, Buzz has done this as the leader of Marquette's program.  We should expect more of the leader vs a simple member of the team. 

By your own standards, why is Buzz not despicable?

Or is your contempt only reserved for the student with the crazy dad?  The same crazy dad that provides Jeronne with the greatest level of commitment, loyalty, and love.

Or perhaps when Buzz left UNO.

Just sayin'.

[warthog-driver]

Where is your outrage at Buzz? 

Or how about my outrage at world hunger? Did you ever take any rhetoric or logic classes while at Marquette? The subject is Maymon.

Your obtuseness is only exceeded by your dislike for Buzz Williams.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Where is your outrage at Buzz?  He has not honored his commitment or taken responsibility for Hazel, Mbao, Roseboro, and Newbill.  He has failed to honor his commitment multiple times in this manner.  Even more egregiously, Buzz has done this as the leader of Marquette's program.  We should expect more of the leader vs a simple member of the team. 

The reality is, all parties have commitments, and in all these cases, both parties agreed to move on when there were disagreements over those commitments.  All involved a written release of those commitments signed by both parties--a commitment that lasts only one year when there are good terms.  Some were bitter from the outside looking in, but in all cases, commitments were waived when both signed the release--for better or worse.  Kids and programs change their minds--same as everyday students who transfer.  It is their futures, why don't we move on?  Basketball is a game (not life and death) and a means to an ends.  In all cases, these kids are now in a program that is a better fit.  All good then as they moved on.  MU released Maymon of his commitment--he did not go AWOL.

[GGGG]

Good for Warthog's world. Too bad for yours. The notion that you have earned the right to call him names may work in your world. Not mine.

I didn't call him names.  I said he was acting "high and mighty."  Which he was.  And still is.

[Henry Sugar]

Or how about my outrage at world hunger? Did you ever take any rhetoric or logic classes while at Marquette? The subject is Maymon.

Your obtuseness is only exceeded by your dislike for Buzz Williams.

I expect you to have enough integrity and honor to have a vigorous discussion without resorting to insults or misrepresentations.  For the record, my opinions of Buzz are generally favorable and publicly available on Cracked Sidewalks. 

You are applying one standard to a kid with a crazy dad and not applying that standard to the leader of Marquette's program.  Why does your blanket outrage at Maymon not extend to Buzz? 

[MerrittsMustache]

As for his age or father's influence being a factor? I have cited the brave 18-24 year old men and women who serve their nation with honor. I do know on a personal basis many of these great Americans are from disadvantaged backgrounds. I do know some had only a single parent. I do know some had no parent. I do know most are from the "other side of the tracks." There was no opportunity to attend college; it was never a consideration. And yet they have the maturity, discipline, and character to make the right decisions routinely. Do I respect them? Let me put it this way: I place my life in their very capable hands.

I really see no connection between this Walter-Sobchak-like rant and the fact that Jeronne has an overbearing father who has seemingly called the shots for his son's entire life.

No one is questioning how much you respect soldiers. Often kids who enlist in the military do so because they need guidance and structure. Jeronne was given guidance and structure by his father...whose strengths, unlike the military do not appear to be guidance and structure. That can make things very difficult for a child/young adult. Much like soldiers do as they're told by their superiors. Jeronne did as he was told to do by his superior (in this case, his father).

Personally, I don't find Jeronne to be a diplorable character. I think he's a college sophomore who always takes his father's advice because he knows nothing different. In all honesty, I feel sorry for him and I hope he can distance himself from those people in his life who appear to be using him for their own personal gain.


EDIT: Removed part of the post that I realized was not completely applicable due to warthog's statement that leaving in the middle of the season was his main issue with Jeronne.

[GGGG]

Or how about my outrage at world hunger? Did you ever take any rhetoric or logic classes while at Marquette? The subject is Maymon.

Your obtuseness is only exceeded by your dislike for Buzz Williams.

I don't believe Sugar has ever expressed a dislike for Buzz Williams.  His point is that college basketball is a world where disloyalty is not only not frowned upon, it is celebrated when a coach does it to upgrade the team.  Yet somehow we are coming down on Maymon for "quitting," when it was clearly not his complete decision to do so.  

[warthog-driver]

I didn't call him names.  I said he was acting "high and mighty."  Which he was.  And still is.

As a Colonel I am expected to lead by example. We have a code by which we live. I hold myself accountable and so do my men. It is not about fame, fortune, or glory. It is about doing the right thing at all times. That is not high and mighty. It is being decent. It is about honor.

[warthog-driver]

 Yet somehow we are coming down on Maymon for "quitting," when it was clearly not his complete decision to do so.  

But it was his decision. Jeronne Maymon made the decision to leave his team in the middle of a season. Tim Maymon was an influence but at the end of the day it was Jeronne's decision. And it was a decision sorely lacking in honor.

[Henry Sugar]

The reality is, all parties have commitments, and in all these cases, both parties agreed to move on when there were disagreements over those commitments.  All involved a written release of those commitments signed by both parties--a commitment that lasts only one year when there are good terms.  Some were bitter from the outside looking in, but in all cases, commitments were waived when both signed the release--for better or worse.  Kids and programs change their minds--same as everyday students who transfer.  It is their futures, why don't we move on?  Basketball is a game (not life and death) and a means to an ends.  In all cases, these kids are now in a program that is a better fit.  All good then as they moved on.  MU released Maymon of his commitment--he did not go AWOL.

I know that.  I'm 100% fine with commitments being broken in college basketball.  It happens all the time by coaches as well as players.  Coaches leave.  Players are "encouraged" to find a better fit.  Sometimes players decide to transfer on their own.  It's a part of the Game.

Maymon has been vilified by many parties because he was in a bad position and trusted his father.  Warthog says similarly aged men and women act with more courage all the time in the military.  I respond that college basketball is not the military.

Warthog says integrity and commitments are not exclusive to the military.  I agree, and point out areas where Buzz has not honored commitments.  I then want to know why the same outrage is not applied to Buzz using this standard.

Hey, maybe I do understand logic.

[MerrittsMustache]

But it was his decision. Jeronne Maymon made the decision to leave his team in the middle of a season. Tim Maymon was an influence but at the end of the day it was Jeronne's decision. And it was a decision sorely lacking in honor.

If some of what is rumored about Jeronne's departure is true, it really was not his decision.


Whatever the case, I'm ready to chalk this one up as an "agree to disagree" situation.

[reinko]

But it was his decision. Jeronne Maymon made the decision to leave his team in the middle of a season. Tim Maymon was an influence but at the end of the day it was Jeronne's decision. And it was a decision sorely lacking in honor.

But we don't know that, and probably never will.

Equally as plausible.  Timmy blows up at the coaching staff time and time again. Buzz, TMay, and JMay agree that MU is not a good fit.  Buzz gives JMay his release, JMay goes to TN.

[StillAWarrior]

Did you ever take any rhetoric or logic classes while at Marquette? The subject is Maymon.

Your obtuseness is only exceeded by your dislike for Buzz Williams.

If the subject of discussion is solely Maymon, how did we ever start talking about the admirable young soldiers in whom you have rightly placed your trust?  Could it be that you brought them into the discussion to make a point about honor, commitment and integrity?  If you can bring these soldiers into a discussion where "the subject is Maymon" , I don't see why Sultan can't use Buzz to also make a point about honor, commitment and integrity.  Just because you don't want to answer the question doesn't mean that Sultan is being obtuse.

[GGGG]

As a Colonel I am expected to lead by example. We have a code by which we live. I hold myself accountable and so do my men. It is not about fame, fortune, or glory. It is about doing the right thing at all times. That is not high and mighty.

When you believe that you live by standards ethically superior to others, and publically state as such, you are acting high and mighty.  Almost by the very definition of the phrase.

[StillAWarrior]

As a Colonel I am expected to lead by example. We have a code by which we live. I hold myself accountable and so do my men. It is not about fame, fortune, or glory. It is about doing the right thing at all times. That is not high and mighty. It is being decent. It is about honor.

I think this post illustrates what is at the heart of Sultan's point (although I can't speak for him).  You obviously have contempt for Maymon's actions (and I'm not saying that you shouldn't), and in connection with stating your contempt you say that he cannot be excused because of his age because others his age are acting honorably and with integrity and are honoring their commitments in service of our County.  And you bring in your own experiences as an Officer in the military to further make a point about honor, integrity, leadership and accountability.  All of that makes sense and I think make an effective argument that Maymon doesn't deserve a "pass" because he's only 18 or so.

Yet you refuse to engage when someone raises the question:  "is our coach being held to the same standard to which we want to hold our players?"  It's a reasonable question, and in the grand scheme of things, this board is the most logical place place for many of us to discuss it.

[Lennys Tap]

I didn't call him names.  I said he was acting "high and mighty."  Which he was.  And still is.

Wrong. You said "dont BE all high and mighty" not "don't ACT all high and mighty". I know you like to get Clintonesque when qualifying just how personal your insults are, but I think most of us know what the definition of is (or be) is.

So, in summary, you did call him names and you're still acting like an a-hole.

[GGGG]

Fine Lennys...I called him a name.  I'm sure he can handle it.

[warthog-driver]

Yet you refuse to engage when someone raises the question:  "is our coach being held to the same standard to which we want to hold our players?"  It's a reasonable question, and in the grand scheme of things, this board is the most logical place place for many of us to discuss it.

When I give my word to someone it is my bond. As a Squadron and Group Commander my men needed to know they could stake their lives on my word. It is imperative for good order, discipline, and mission effectiveness. If Buzz Williams made a commitment to a player, manager, student, or any other member of the Marquette community he is compelled morally to honor that commitment. I have no insight into what commitments he made to the players in question - and neither do you.

[Da 'Lanche]

Not sure how "honorable" it is to beat up on an 18-19 year old man-kid when nobody here knows him personally....knows his true motives, influences or intentions....knows exactly what went down that led to his transfer....know how much was attributable to JMay, his dad, the coaching staff, the program or messages from God Almighty blurting through his head.    Labelling him a quitter, traitor...whatever without knowing if he truly wanted to stay and how the pragmatics of the situation played out is pure speculation.

Frankly, I hope he slays it at Tennessee.   One, I generally root for people to succeed...especially with difficult nuances surrounding their situation.  Two, it shows MU is recruiting well from a pure basketball skills level.  Three, I just remain interested...even if perversely to play the "what if they had stayed game."  That is why I hope Christopherson keeps lighting up the scoreboard for ISU.    I also follow Mbakwe and take an interest in what he is doing.

Whatever...the dude committed to MU for a reason and left for a reason.  I'm not privy to either but am not going to root against him just because he chose to transfer.   I agree leaving your teammates in a lurch during the season is waaaaaayyyyy bad form...but I don't know how that came about and I doubt anyone ever will.