Big East presidents/ADs meeting this week - expansion?

[GGGG]

I would say a conference of G'town, Prov, St. Johns, Nova, MU, ND, Depaul, Butler, and Xavier would be a pretty solid basketball conference.  Playing everyone twice, with the conference tourny at the end of the season.  Possibly add a 10th team (Dayton, SLU, Temple, UMass, Valpo, Cleveland State, Wright State, UWM -- I picked those teams b/c they hold 10K + in their basketball arenas, with UMass at 9 1/2 ) and have an 18 game conference schedule. 

ND stays with the BE.  There is no way that the football schools kick ND out.

Dayton, Temple, SLU and UMass would be fine.  The Horizon League schools would be bad.  I mean...Valpo???

[CTWarrior]

My Worry would be the Big East football schools would add 3 or 4 (depending on Vill) and then bounce 3-4 of the basketball schools.  In that Situation Gtown, ND, Nova, and ST johns would be safe which would leave Depaul, MU, Prov, Seton Hall possible on the outside.  I think if they only bounced 2 teams we would make it, 3 or 4 I think we would be on the outs.

My fear exactly, and this isn't too far-fetched.  If we were left to pick up the pieces with DePaul, Providence and Seton Hall, we would not have the core of a big-time basketball conference.  It would be near impossible to lure Butler, Xavier, Temple, etc. to that conference core.  Such a scenario would leave us worse off than we were when in C-USA or even the old Great Midwest, where we at least had the likes of Louisville, Memphis and Cincy to give our league some legitimacy.  We'd have to go the big fish in a small pond route of Gonzaga and Butler, but that road leads to ruin a lot more than to success.

[Aughnanure]

My fear exactly, and this isn't too far-fetched.  If we were left to pick up the pieces with DePaul, Providence and Seton Hall, we would not have the core of a big-time basketball conference.  It would be near impossible to lure Butler, Xavier, Temple, etc. to that conference core.  Such a scenario would leave us worse off than we were when in C-USA or even the old Great Midwest, where we at least had the likes of Louisville, Memphis and Cincy to give our league some legitimacy.  We'd have to go the big fish in a small pond route of Gonzaga and Butler, but that road leads to ruin a lot more than to success.

Even in that worst case scenario, which is pretty terrible (not being associated with GTown, Nova and St. Johns would really hurt) - I think the schools like Xavier, Butler, etc would still want to realign as well (esp considering there will be so much overall realignment). You can say all you want about how well they are doing now, but they know they need to be in the most competitive, highest respected conference possible and the Horizon simply isnt doing it. We would probably end up of a mix of Big East leftovers and the cream of the crop from the A10, mixed with some other schools.

I would see some mix of schools such as: Marquette, DePaul, Butler, Xavier, Dayton, UMass, Seton Hall, Providence, St. Louis, Richmond, George Washington, Creighton, Wichita St., Charlotte, Southern Illinois, Duquesne, St. Joseph's

(What happens to Memphis by the way? No one seems to even want to touch them- would they be interested...it would be a better conference to join overall, as long as they dont value their football much)

[GGGG]

I would see some mix of schools such as: Marquette, DePaul, Butler, Xavier, Dayton, UMass, Seton Hall, Providence, St. Louis, Richmond, George Washington, Creighton, Wichita St., Charlotte, Southern Illinois, Duquesne, St. Joseph's

Nothing more exciting than a Saturday afternoon game against Wichita.  Maybe channel 529 on my digital tier would televise it.  Hope they don't show the crowd shots with 8,000 people in the seats.

[Aughnanure]

Nothing more exciting than a Saturday afternoon game against Wichita.  Maybe channel 529 on my digital tier would televise it.  Hope they don't show the crowd shots with 8,000 people in the seats.

Nice cheap insult. Too bad they have a very good overall athletic program, being the #1 wining baseball program the past 31 years, and a solid history of basketball success along with an arena of 10,500+

[GGGG]

Nice cheap insult. Too bad they have a very good overall athletic program, being the #1 wining baseball program the past 31 years, and a solid history of basketball success along with an arena of 10,500+

No one here cares about their baseball team nor anything else about their athletic program except for basketball.  And their "solid history" of basketball success includes a whopping *8* NCAA bids...which is better than SLU's six bids I guess...

But the real point is that the drop off from Georgetown and Syracuse down to Wichta and Creighton in terms of marquee value is a steep one.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Nice cheap insult. Too bad they have a very good overall athletic program, being the #1 wining baseball program the past 31 years, and a solid history of basketball success along with an arena of 10,500+

Plus the students use the Shocker gesture at the games....which you gotta love

[Marquette84]

Even in that worst case scenario, which is pretty terrible (not being associated with GTown, Nova and St. Johns would really hurt) - I think the schools like Xavier, Butler, etc would still want to realign as well (esp considering there will be so much overall realignment). You can say all you want about how well they are doing now, but they know they need to be in the most competitive, highest respected conference possible and the Horizon simply isnt doing it. We would probably end up of a mix of Big East leftovers and the cream of the crop from the A10, mixed with some other schools.

I would see some mix of schools such as: Marquette, DePaul, Butler, Xavier, Dayton, UMass, Seton Hall, Providence, St. Louis, Richmond, George Washington, Creighton, Wichita St., Charlotte, Southern Illinois, Duquesne, St. Joseph's

(What happens to Memphis by the way? No one seems to even want to touch them- would they be interested...it would be a better conference to join overall, as long as they dont value their football much)

And we could call it the Lake Wobegon Conference where the players are good looking and all the teams are above average.

There's a reason why those teams haven't ALREADY aligned with each other--and its not because they're waiting for the Big East teams to become available.

Certainly a conference with a core of Butler, Xavier, Gonzaga, and Memphis would be far stronger than the A10 or CUSA or Horizon as they stand today.  

Then throw in Southern Illinois, Creighton, Dayton, UMass, UAB--even Wichita.  A lot better than the Horizon or the A10.

Yet Butler stands alone atop the Horizon.  X stands as the cream of the A10.  Memphis succeeds as the king of CUSA. Gonzaga provides only lip service to sharing the limelight with St. Marys.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Plus the students use the Shocker gesture at the games....which you gotta love

my kids wear Wichita State sweatshirts for that very reason.

[muguru]

And we could call it the Lake Wobegon Conference where the players are good looking and all the teams are above average.

There's a reason why those teams haven't ALREADY aligned with each other--and its not because they're waiting for the Big East teams to become available.

Certainly a conference with a core of Butler, Xavier, Gonzaga, and Memphis would be far stronger than the A10 or CUSA or Horizon as they stand today.  

Then throw in Southern Illinois, Creighton, Dayton, UMass, UAB--even Wichita.  A lot better than the Horizon or the A10.

Yet Butler stands alone atop the Horizon.  X stands as the cream of the A10.  Memphis succeeds as the king of CUSA. Gonzaga provides only lip service to sharing the limelight with St. Marys.

Ughhhh I get so tired of seeing what people put together for a conference for MU to be in, and say "this isn't bad, or this is pretty good". NO NO NO NO!! That conference would SUCK. Any conferencewhere MU would be affiliated with any number of "mid majors" is NOT a good thing. If they leave the Big East...make no mistake about it, Marquette basketball as we know it, is dead. Period! Cords knows what he is doing however, and that being said, I don't see him joining the Big East if he felt like the conference would split after a number of years and MU would no longer be a part of it again. What would be the point?? I would think he got some assurances from the powers that be in the Big East that that would NOT happen. EVER.


Now, that being said....DePaul has NO business, NONE, ZERO, ZIP being in a conference like the Big East. They are a mid major program. They belong tied in with the Mac or a similar conference.

[Aughnanure]

And we could call it the Lake Wobegon Conference where the players are good looking and all the teams are above average.

There's a reason why those teams haven't ALREADY aligned with each other--and its not because they're waiting for the Big East teams to become available.

Certainly a conference with a core of Butler, Xavier, Gonzaga, and Memphis would be far stronger than the A10 or CUSA or Horizon as they stand today.  

Then throw in Southern Illinois, Creighton, Dayton, UMass, UAB--even Wichita.  A lot better than the Horizon or the A10.

Yet Butler stands alone atop the Horizon.  X stands as the cream of the A10.  Memphis succeeds as the king of CUSA. Gonzaga provides only lip service to sharing the limelight with St. Marys.

And Guess What? We may have no other choice. And it would still be more money than Xavier and Butler are getting now.

[Aughnanure]

No one here cares about their baseball team nor anything else about their athletic program except for basketball.  And their "solid history" of basketball success includes a whopping *8* NCAA bids...which is better than SLU's six bids I guess...

But the real point is that the drop off from Georgetown and Syracuse down to Wichta and Creighton in terms of marquee value is a steep one.

It was a hypothetical situation in the case that we lose our affiliation with those schools. What is the next most logical and best option is what I tried to come up with - not justifying that it would be better in any way shape or form.

[Skatastrophy]

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/11/big-east-eyes-expansion-10-team-football-league.html

___________quote_________
According to a release, the presidents of the conference's 16 member institutions voted unanimously to approve "the process to evaluate the terms and conditions for potential expansion candidates."
...
One rumor to which there appeared to be zero credence before Tuesday and which the unanimous vote more or less quashes: That non-football-playing members such as DePaul and Marquette were in danger of being booted from the league.
_________________________

[Aughnanure]

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/11/big-east-eyes-expansion-10-team-football-league.html

___________quote_________
According to a release, the presidents of the conference's 16 member institutions voted unanimously to approve "the process to evaluate the terms and conditions for potential expansion candidates."
...
One rumor to which there appeared to be zero credence before Tuesday and which the unanimous vote more or less quashes: That non-football-playing members such as DePaul and Marquette were in danger of being booted from the league.
_________________________

I know that should make me feel better, but its pretty scary to actually see that rumor in writing (rather then someone saying they heard in a thread).

[kmwtrucks]

They may have only metioned Depaul and MU since we are the Midwest schools.  If the article was written on the east Coast it may have mentioned PROV and SETON HALL.  If MU voted against expansion I would think that would leave us on the wrong side of the island and be the 1st ones off. 

[Marquette84]

And Guess What? We may have no other choice. And it would still be more money than Xavier and Butler are getting now.

My point is that we do have another choice.

There's an assumption that the only choice is to go and raid the best one or two teams from the A10, Horizon, CUSA, MVC, etc and combine them with the Big East castoffs to have any chance of success.

What I'm saying is that the roadmap for sustained NCAA success--and national recognition--has already been established by Xavier, Gonzaga, Memphis, and Butler.

Money is not the issue--since these four teams could undoubtedly make more money for their conference if they aligned with each other.  All of them feel that sustained high-level national recognition and NCAA success is more important than a bigger TV deal.

[Tulsa Warrior]

The sky is not falling....just changing.  The basketball tradition of the Big East is too valuable to damage.  The league is building a firewall against the Big Ten and ACC.  Football is a key to that.

[Jay-Z]

Every year around Selection Sunday, all people have to say about teams like Memphis, Xavier, and Butler is that they don't play anybody and their schedules are weak.  I would much rather have people saying that Marquette plays in the toughest conference in the country and came out of in 6th place.  

I mean, Butler last year was a 5 seed in the tourney and MU was a 6.  

[Aughnanure]

My point is that we do have another choice.

There's an assumption that the only choice is to go and raid the best one or two teams from the A10, Horizon, CUSA, MVC, etc and combine them with the Big East castoffs to have any chance of success.

What I'm saying is that the roadmap for sustained NCAA success--and national recognition--has already been established by Xavier, Gonzaga, Memphis, and Butler.

Money is not the issue--since these four teams could undoubtedly make more money for their conference if they aligned with each other.  All of them feel that sustained high-level national recognition and NCAA success is more important than a bigger TV deal.

I think you are assuming/acting as though they purposely chose these routes. Do you think Memphis really wanted to be left in CUSA while 5 of us went to the Big East? Same with Xavier, who had a better resume to join over DePaul. Gonzaga literally has no other option for their conference alignment.

You may be right, and maybe we should focus on dominating the lower Midwest and plains, but I think that would be an even greater risk long-term.

[GGGG]

The sky is not falling....just changing.  The basketball tradition of the Big East is too valuable to damage.  The league is building a firewall against the Big Ten and ACC.  Football is a key to that.

That's not quite what they are doing.  The B10 can still make a better offer than the BE will ever be able to provide, so if the B10 wants Rutgers...well, they will likely get Rutgers.

But it does open new markets and make the football side of things more lucrative.  I think it would be a mistake to "promote" Nova to FBS, but I guess that invitation is out there.  I would go TCU, Houston and Central Florida.  Big markets with decent programs.  This is a good thing for the BE.

Let me also add, that adding two more teams means that each team has nine conference games, and only has to find three non-conference opponents a year...versus the five they have to find now.

[ChicosBailBonds]

They may have only metioned Depaul and MU since we are the Midwest schools.  If the article was written on the east Coast it may have mentioned PROV and SETON HALL.  If MU voted against expansion I would think that would leave us on the wrong side of the island and be the 1st ones off. 

Seton Hall maybe, PROV never.  They started the conference and basically will always have a seat at the table if they wish.

[Marquette84]

I think you are assuming/acting as though they purposely chose these routes. Do you think Memphis really wanted to be left in CUSA while 5 of us went to the Big East? Same with Xavier, who had a better resume to join over DePaul. Gonzaga literally has no other option for their conference alignment.

You may be right, and maybe we should focus on dominating the lower Midwest and plains, but I think that would be an even greater risk long-term.

I think you are assuming/acting as if they had no choice after they were left behind.

Was there some rule in Big East expansion that forbade Xavier or Memphis or Butler from subsequently joining a conference together?

If strengthening a league for TV reasons was worthwhile, wouldn't you think at a bare minimum, Butler and Xavier would align themselves in the same conference?  Indianapolis and Cincinnati are almost as close to one another as Chicago and Milwaukee. 



 

[Aughnanure]

I think you are assuming/acting as if they had no choice after they were left behind.

Was there some rule in Big East expansion that forbade Xavier or Memphis or Butler from subsequently joining a conference together?

If strengthening a league for TV reasons was worthwhile, wouldn't you think at a bare minimum, Butler and Xavier would align themselves in the same conference?  Indianapolis and Cincinnati are almost as close to one another as Chicago and Milwaukee. 

Again, you act like those two teams have had that type of recognition for years. Butler has never been more prominent, or powerful, and Xavier has finally their perception above a simple consistent mid-major just recently. Also, you assume that there are no constraints holding these schools from moving around as easily in 2005. Shifting around in 2005 after that realignment is not the same as the type of major shift coming in the next 2-5 years. I mean this as that the field will be more open as ever because so many teams will be left out, so many new alliances and teams can come together that could not before.

Look, I understand what you mean that forming the basketball-only power conference is not necessarily the best option. I guess I just see this as such a seismic shift that schools, especially basketball, will have much more freedom and greater abilities to join wherever and with whomever they want. In this situation, why would you want to join with a bunch of terrible, weaker and les stable athletic schools just for the motivation that you could dominate the league?

[chapman]

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/25634463

Blog article by Dennis Dodd.  Suggests TCU is a good fit and also looks at UCF.   Most interesting part is he suggests that they would likely not be invited as basketball members.

[MUBurrow]

I think we should be careful about badmouthing DePaul's place in the BE. We need them more than everyone seems to think.  That Chicago market (and relatively untouched college sports market there) I think is going to keep BE officials salivating.  Don't let the current state of the program fool you, there has been too much harping on DePaul's crappiness and Butler & Xavier's greatness based on recent results.  When it comes to staying power and the things conferences look for, DePaul's chicago location is it. Yes they have problems with their facility, etc, but the opportunity remains there. We need that midwestern tie to keep the milwaukee market relevant to the BE and need to stay DePaul's rival and running partner.