Recruiting

[GOMU1104]

Read the post. Never said we don't have enough top 100 recruits on the roster. I compared the current commits of zero top 100 (based on ESPN) to what others are doing in BEAST notably Louisville, Villanova, syracuse etc., and that we need to get some to keep up with the Joneses.

Why must people pick apart/misinterpret whatever somebody says?

Instead of using one list (ESPN), why not the RSCI consensus rankings?  There...now we have a Top 100 commit. Further, consider Jamil Wilson as a part of the 2011 class.

Feel better now?

[HelixAir6]

Read the post. Never said we don't have enough top 100 recruits on the roster. I compared the current commits of zero top 100 (based on ESPN) to what others are doing in BEAST notably Louisville, Villanova, syracuse etc., and that we need to get some to keep up with the Joneses.

Why must people pick apart/misinterpret whatever somebody says?

Not to suggest that we are done recruiting for the year or we won't get another huge recruit, but this is just one year...  Buzz is trying to squeeze more talent onto a very talented roster... Last year, we had the 2nd best recruiting class in the BE according to most...  So we are currently the "Joneses" who everyone else is trying to keep up with...

chill out, a lot can happen between now and next year, let alone 4 years from now

[MarkCharles]

Read the post. Never said we don't have enough top 100 recruits on the roster. I compared the current commits of zero top 100 (based on ESPN) to what others are doing in BEAST notably Louisville, Villanova, syracuse etc., and that we need to get some to keep up with the Joneses.

Why must people pick apart/misinterpret whatever somebody says?

That is basically what you said though. To say that we need step up and sign more top100 guys to keep up with teams that have 2 or 3 implies pretty clearly that you think we need more top100 guys on the team.

If you are saying we need to sign more top100 guys simply so we can say we are "keeping up" and have as many as some other program, and not because the roster actually needs them (which you seem to be arguing in your response), is quite silly.

[AZWarrior]

You might want to go brush up on your history and learn how great the recruiting actually was under Al and Hank. 

Under Hank, I recall Doc Rivers, of course.  Kerry Trotter was highly regarded.  But I don't recall a lot of top recruits recruited by Hank.  Can you refresh my memory?

[bma725]

Under Hank, I recall Doc Rivers, of course.  Kerry Trotter was highly regarded.  But I don't recall a lot of top recruits recruited by Hank.  Can you refresh my memory?

There were quite a few...Oliver Lee, Michael Wilson, Tony Davis, Artie Green, Mandy Johnson, DJ Johnson, Lloyd Moore...and that's just off the top of my head.  Every single one of those guys was a Top 50 player, some were Top 25 if not higher. 

[bilsu]

The team Hank left Majerus was Doc Rivers, Kerry Trotter, Mandy Johnson, Dwayne Johnson and Walter Downing. Rivers turned pro and Moore never got going because of his weight. However, they were all listed in the top 30 as high school players going into their senior year by Street & Smith. That would have been a top 30 player at every position. I still think that we would have got Joe Wolf if Raymonds stayed on as head coach. Raymonds always put MU first and he saw Majerus's potential and turned the team over to him so he would not go elsewhere. Three years Majerus jumps ship and we end up with Dukiet. I would have loved to see Raymonds coach 9 more years. There is no doubt in my mind we would have won more games than Majerus and Dukiet won in those 9 years.

[Golden Avalanche]

That is basically what you said though. To say that we need step up and sign more top100 guys to keep up with teams that have 2 or 3 implies pretty clearly that you think we need more top100 guys on the team.

If you are saying we need to sign more top100 guys simply so we can say we are "keeping up" and have as many as some other program, and not because the roster actually needs them (which you seem to be arguing in your response), is quite silly.

His main point, I believe, is that the last guy showed what happens when you reach for the top and fail. He had some bad classes. He had some classes that ended up mismatched because he took whatever was left after missing top targets and in some cases the entire class left after one or two years. It can cripple you.

He's most likely a bit concerned because we have some different powers now in the conference with Lavin building big in NYC; Rutgers landing some nice talent; and Purnell in Chicago who will get DePaul to the middle of the pack before retiring. Throw in our yearly battles in the 5-8 range with Notre Dame, West Virginia, and Georgetown and it won't be long before some good programs are sitting on the wrong end of the table. He just doesn't want it to be MU.

The good news is that Buzz is much better scrambling then Crean and his Spring recruiting has shown that. That is a saving grace and one that could help us to avoid the issues we saw earlier this decade.

[OhioGoldenEagle]

PATIENCE!  Calmly waiting and banking a scholarship or 2 can be highly beneficial.  Look at what Kentucky did last year in the Spring.  There are......

1.  Prospects that wait until spring to decide so they can get a good guage on rosters of their desired colleges.
2.  Prospects that blow up in their senior seasons and catch people off guard
3.  Possible transfers (see Jamil Wilson)
4.  Junior College Players - Similar to #2, we (ie.Buzz and co.) may not know who blows up in JuCo and decides to go D1.  For example, Chris Colvin, a previous MU target that committed to Iowa State (I believe) is going JuCo (so I heard).  Might this be target for Buzz? 

We all know Buzz likes the Junior College players, and he himself came out and explained this during the Brad Galli interview.  That being said, my money is on 1 JuCo player in the spring and 1 High School player and I for 1 trust Buzz's judgment of JuCo kids.  All that said, in Buzz we trust.

PS.  Even the elite basketball schools don't land nationally ranked class for handfuls of years in succession.  Buzz has had 2 consecutively ranked classes, which is OUTSTANDING, so it's not a failure if he doesn't land a 3rd.  We've got plenty of good pieces in place, so I'm not overly worried.

[MarkCharles]

His main point, I believe, is that the last guy showed what happens when you reach for the top and fail. He had some bad classes. He had some classes that ended up mismatched because he took whatever was left after missing top targets and in some cases the entire class left after one or two years. It can cripple you.

He's most likely a bit concerned because we have some different powers now in the conference with Lavin building big in NYC; Rutgers landing some nice talent; and Purnell in Chicago who will get DePaul to the middle of the pack before retiring. Throw in our yearly battles in the 5-8 range with Notre Dame, West Virginia, and Georgetown and it won't be long before some good programs are sitting on the wrong end of the table. He just doesn't want it to be MU.

The good news is that Buzz is much better scrambling then Crean and his Spring recruiting has shown that. That is a saving grace and one that could help us to avoid the issues we saw earlier this decade.

Let him respond for himself. Besides, thats reading A LOT into his post, which was basically a list of other teams' recruits and saying we didn't have any and had to keep up.

[avid1010]

Getting concerned about our recruiting success for this year.

MU has none. Hell we need to get all 3 we are in on, just to keep up with the Joneses. In Buzz I trust does not help in this numbers game.

We need results.

You're comical.  I get a kick out of you always demanding immediate results.  So say we don't get another top 100 kid (and I think there's a good chance that happens)...what is your suggestion for dealing with those results?  Do you feel that Buzz has a structure and reputation to build before he can compete with those coaches that have already proven themselves over and over again?  I know you don't have a solution as to how MU can get better recruiting results, but I'm interested to hear what you think should be done about this lack of results.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The team Hank left Majerus was Doc Rivers, Kerry Trotter, Mandy Johnson, Dwayne Johnson and Walter Downing. Rivers turned pro and Moore never got going because of his weight. However, they were all listed in the top 30 as high school players going into their senior year by Street & Smith. That would have been a top 30 player at every position. I still think that we would have got Joe Wolf if Raymonds stayed on as head coach. Raymonds always put MU first and he saw Majerus's potential and turned the team over to him so he would not go elsewhere. Three years Majerus jumps ship and we end up with Dukiet. I would have loved to see Raymonds coach 9 more years. There is no doubt in my mind we would have won more games than Majerus and Dukiet won in those 9 years.

Interesting post.  I have no doubt that Hank would have won more games than Rick and Bob put together in those years...though didn't Rick plus Bob only coach 6 years?  I can't recall.

However, what is your opinion if Hank kept going?  Would we have still gone down the steady (albeit slow) slide that we were in?  I tend to think yes.  So hard to follow a legend, especially if you don't have the immediate success or signature wins needed to show he can do it, too.  The early flameouts after Al's runs made things worse for Hank, in my opinion. 

[willie warrior]

You're comical.  I get a kick out of you always demanding immediate results.  So say we don't get another top 100 kid (and I think there's a good chance that happens)...what is your suggestion for dealing with those results?  Do you feel that Buzz has a structure and reputation to build before he can compete with those coaches that have already proven themselves over and over again?  I know you don't have a solution as to how MU can get better recruiting results, but I'm interested to hear what you think should be done about this lack of results.

I'm not paid to recruit the players--Buzz is. What should be done is to get the players--it is that simple. Other BEast teams have done it this year, and there is no reason we cannot.

What is your solution?

[nyg]

Just want to get talented players that work and play together as a team. Some teams out there are loaded with top 50 recruits and it just doesn't workout at first.  Look at North Carolina last year with 7 McDonald All Americans.  They end up 20-17 overall and 5-11 in ACC play.  Then Kentucky, who had similar freshman recruits, makes an awesome run.  This year it is Memphis with all the recruits, so we'll see. 

For 2011 MU has Wilson and Anderson so far and if they can get Shaw or another PF/C to commit, that is a great class. 

[LovinMUbBall]

What should be done? Patience!!!!!!!! Willie, I might agree with your argument if it was next June, but right now things are fine. I don't know any exact numbers on which programs will have how many 4 or 5 star players on their team a year from now, but I'm willing to bet MU will be comparable. I agree we need another big man-however, good ones are hard to come by, and it has shown that projects typically fail or transfer. I think in due time Buzz will eventually land a highly touted big man, but in the mean time let's give O'tule and Gardner a chance to show what they got in big time action.

[tower912]

The team Hank left Majerus was Doc Rivers, Kerry Trotter, Mandy Johnson, Dwayne Johnson and Walter Downing. Rivers turned pro and Moore never got going because of his weight. However, they were all listed in the top 30 as high school players going into their senior year by Street & Smith. That would have been a top 30 player at every position. I still think that we would have got Joe Wolf if Raymonds stayed on as head coach. Raymonds always put MU first and he saw Majerus's potential and turned the team over to him so he would not go elsewhere. Three years Majerus jumps ship and we end up with Dukiet. I would have loved to see Raymonds coach 9 more years. There is no doubt in my mind we would have won more games than Majerus and Dukiet won in those 9 years.

Walter Downing started at DePaul and transferred in later.   Hank did not leave him to Majerus.

[jeffreyweee]

I'm not paid to recruit the players--Buzz is. What should be done is to get the players--it is that simple. Other BEast teams have done it this year, and there is no reason we cannot.

What is your solution?

Look at the depth of our roster and the depth of their rosters. We have more top 100 recruits or juco all americans than any other team on that list. Recruiting when you have the depth we do is extremely difficult. Just because other teams have recruited well this year doesn't mean we should be. Each school has a different situation and cannot be compared in the way you are.

So yes, there is a reason we cannot.

[mileskishnish72]

Loved the Al years at MU, but I have to admit, I was not aware at that time of HS player ratings. I know there wasn't anything on the internet - it was pre-Al Gore. What WAS out there ratings-wise in those days (and how did our recruits measure up)?

[bma725]

And the results under Al were pretty darn good too, right?  The best in program history.  Buzz is pushing right up against what the best collection of talent Al assembled was..but if you would educate those of us younger fans..can you give us the roster that featured more than 7 highly regarded (Top 100/Juco POY/1st team All Americans) players on the roster simultaneously?  My understanding is Al landed a fair amount of Top 10-25 talent..so some of the Elite, Elite talents..but not sure he landed depth of talent.

At the end of the day, this thread is ridiculous and that is the main point of my post.

I know you have a huge man crush on Buzz, but pushing up against the best collection of talent that Al had?  Sorry not even close.  Buzz is getting guys that are Top 100 and for the most part they're in the lower half of the rankings.  Al and Hank's floor was guys that would be higher ranked than anyone Buzz has pulled in.  He was getting the best point guard in the country(Meminger), the best center in the country(Chones), the best guard in the country(Butch Lee) etc.  Even Hank was still pulling in multiple McDonald's All Americans and scores of Top 50 guys.  Buzz hasn't gotten to that level.

In terms of the depth....look at a year like 1976.  Earl Tatum, Bo Ellis, Lloyd Walton, Butch Lee, Bernard Toone, Gary Rosenberger and Jim Boylan were all high school All Americans.  Jerome Whitehead was All California JUCO, which is equivalent to a NJCAA All American, as California has always been separate when it comes to JUCO ball and back then they were at a higher level than the rest of the country.  That's 8 guys right there, and was probably MU's best team ever.

Hank's best collection of talent was probably 1979.  Bernard Toone, Jim Dudley, Oliver Lee, Tony Davis, Michael Wilson, and Artie Green were high school All Americans.  Dean Marquardt was named a Top 50 recruit by at least one service.  Sam Worthen was a JUCO All American.  That team was pretty good, making the Sweet Sixteen before losing to a DePaul team that went to the Final Four.

[HoopsMalone]

PATIENCE!  Calmly waiting and banking a scholarship or 2 can be highly beneficial.  Look at what Kentucky did last year in the Spring.  There are......

+1   I would definitely prefer Shaw and Hood to just sign.  1/2 would be great enough for me.  But, it might not be a bad idea to snag 6'8"+ JUCO guy in the spring who can come in and give us something like what Marcus Jackson gave us.  Those players don't grow on trees either admittedly.  

But we do need a good role player on the inside so seeing who does well in JUCO this year might not be a bad idea.

[bma725]

Loved the Al years at MU, but I have to admit, I was not aware at that time of HS player ratings. I know there wasn't anything on the internet - it was pre-Al Gore. What WAS out there ratings-wise in those days (and how did our recruits measure up)?

It was all done in magazines or periodicals.  Street and Smith's, Parade, and Converse had All American teams.  McDonald's started their All American teams in 1977, but back then it was different.  They would name 40 or 50 guys to the All American team and then pick 12 or so to play as a team against local all stars from some city.  That's why guys like Oliver Lee and Michael Wilson were "McDonald's All Americans" when they were in high school, but aren't recognized as such today.  They made the Top 50, but didn't get picked to play in the game.

[avid1010]

I'm not paid to recruit the players--Buzz is. What should be done is to get the players--it is that simple. Other BEast teams have done it this year, and there is no reason we cannot.

What is your solution?

I'm not the one sitting on a high horse demanding results.  I'm the one supporting Buzz and feeling like he's a great fit for MU, and I don't feel there's another coach available to us that would serve us any better.   Therefore I don't believe I need to offer a solution as I don't see a fixable problem.

My problem with your mentality is that you over-simplify everything while demanding results.  If you have a solution I'd like to hear it.  Simply stating that Buzz should do better, isn't going to help Buzz do better.  So if we don't land another top 100 recruit, you clearly won't be satisfied with the work Buzz has done.  My question is what do you think MU should do about that?  It appears to me that you have no answer, so you just blame Buzz, but come short of offering any solution to dealing with the problem, which you seem to think is Buzz.  While we're at it, should UW fire Bo Ryan for not landing solid recruits, or should a coach be judged based on wins/loses rather than top 100 recruits

[Marqevans]

Even I am going to disagree with Willie here. My concern was over a lack of quality bigs, which is something pretty much every MU fan is concerned about to some degree (many here just don't see it as as big of a problem as I do, which is fair)

But to say we don't have enough top100 recruits is kind of crazy considering the makeup of next year's roster, and is holding MU to a standard of recruiting that the program isn't ready to be held to yet.

Isn't the problem with quality bigs that they are here 1 or 2 years then they jump top to the pros.   I can tell you the pain was awful back in the 70's when Jim Chones jumped to the pros and then Maurice Lucas jumped after only two years on the varsity. 

[bilsu]

Interesting post.  I have no doubt that Hank would have won more games than Rick and Bob put together in those years...though didn't Rick plus Bob only coach 6 years?  I can't recall.

However, what is your opinion if Hank kept going?  Would we have still gone down the steady (albeit slow) slide that we were in?  I tend to think yes.  So hard to follow a legend, especially if you don't have the immediate success or signature wins needed to show he can do it, too.  The early flameouts after Al's runs made things worse for Hank, in my opinion. 

Majerus was three years and Dukiet was probably the same which would be six, but it seemed like 9 years of suffering. Yes, MU declined the first couple of years under Raymonds. Whitehead being tossed out of the Miami of Ohio game was a hugh blow. Then he lost Scooter McCray who was his main recruiting target. Still I believe there was only one time he did not win 20 games and that was the year Dean Marquardt was seriously injured in a car accident and MU only won 18 games. From that point on his recruiting and MU was on an uptick. Look at Raymonds career winning percentage. It was not as good as McGuire's, but far exceeds anyone who came after him.

[texaswarrior74]

'
Isn't the problem with quality bigs that they are here 1 or 2 years then they jump top to the pros.   I can tell you the pain was awful back in the 70's when Jim Chones jumped to the pros and then Maurice Lucas jumped after only two years on the varsity. 

In fact it makes a good trivia question since we actually lost three big men in a row....Chones, Larry McNeil and Lucas...had they all stuck around we would have had the biggest most talented baseline in the country at that time.with Chones at 6'11", McNeil at 6'9" and Lucas at 6'8". That team would have won a National Championship.....

And yes it was painful.....especially when McNeil left and we had to move George "Sugar" Frazier to the post at times....6'3" but with a wingspan and leaping ability of someone 6'8".

[bilsu]

The next year you would have had Lucas, McNeal & Ellis. That year we lost in the NCAA championship game team without McNeal