Ky Madden to Arkansas

[TheRock]

How do you reconcile Crean's recruiting getting WORSE after the Final Four, and Al McGuire Center were built..and for that matter once we joined the Big East?  2004, 2006, and 2007 classes were pretty weak.

I would say 05 and 06 were pretty good.  2 NBA players...that's not bad

[ChicosBailBonds]

How do you reconcile Crean's recruiting getting WORSE after the Final Four, and Al McGuire Center were built..and for that matter once we joined the Big East?  2004, 2006, and 2007 classes were pretty weak.

I didn't realize landing 4 of the top 10 scorers of all time in Marquette history AFTER the Final Four (James, McNeil, Matthews, Hayward), including two that went to the NBA as an example of getting WORSE.  Yes, some of those classes were complete losses, no doubt.  In some cases I thought Crean had Barry Alvarez syndrome and shot too high and finished bride's maid too many times.  Whether or not the recruiting got worse, from a depth perspective certainly, from a starters \ stars perspective....not sure I agree.  Then again, when you land a Dwyane Wade, Travis Diener, Stever Novak in some of your first few classes, it's difficult to maintain.  Let's see if someone else can pull that off....let alone grab someone of the caliber of a Wade, Dienver, Novak to begin with. 

[MUBasketball]

Simple as pie?  No, but I would think if he can recruit to a losing team (14-15), no facilities, Conference USA, non-NIT program that had one Sweet 16 team in 20 years and more years of non-NCAA appearances than NCAA appearances in that same period and turn them into a Final Four program.....I'd think he can probably have an easier time in the LONG RUN at IU than MU.  Easy as pie?  No.  Easier in the long run?  Yes.  Stable conference, state that produces better basketball talent, long long history of winning, etc, etc.  Just my hunch, we'll see over the long run how it turns out.

For f@#&'s sake you make this board completely unreadable. Must you constantly give verbal blowjobs to Crean? Indiana has a board if you want to go talk ad nauseum about his accomplishments. You know he hasn't been the coach since April '08 right?

[Jay Bee]

I didn't realize landing 4 of the top 10 scorers of all time in Marquette history AFTER the Final Four (James, McNeil, Matthews, Hayward), including two that went to the NBA as an example of getting WORSE.  Yes, some of those classes were complete losses, no doubt.  

Is that McNeil guy related to O'Tule?

[NersEllenson]

I didn't realize landing 4 of the top 10 scorers of all time in Marquette history AFTER the Final Four (James, McNeil, Matthews, Hayward), including two that went to the NBA as an example of getting WORSE.  Yes, some of those classes were complete losses, no doubt.  In some cases I thought Crean had Barry Alvarez syndrome and shot too high and finished bride's maid too many times.  Whether or not the recruiting got worse, from a depth perspective certainly, from a starters \ stars perspective....not sure I agree.  Then again, when you land a Dwyane Wade, Travis Diener, Stever Novak in some of your first few classes, it's difficult to maintain.  Let's see if someone else can pull that off....let alone grab someone of the caliber of a Wade, Dienver, Novak to begin with. 

I think you pretty much made my point - prior to the Al, Big East, or Final Four Crean landed Wade, Novak and Diener.  In the 4 years following..he landed 1 GREAT class of Wes, Dom, Jerel.  Had he recruited well in  2003, 2004 - Wes, Rel and Dom wouldn't have been forced to be thrust into the starting lineup as freshman.  That said, 05-06 was by far Crean's best coaching job.  But to say that he recruited so much better after the Final Four, Al, and Big East membership - than he did when he came on board and we were in C-USA, 14-15, had the Old Gym - I just don't see it.

[TheRock]

I think you pretty much made my point - prior to the Al, Big East, or Final Four Crean landed Wade, Novak and Diener.  In the 4 years following..he landed 1 GREAT class of Wes, Dom, Jerel.  Had he recruited well in  2003, 2004 - Wes, Rel and Dom wouldn't have been forced to be thrust into the starting lineup as freshman.  That said, 05-06 was by far Crean's best coaching job.  But to say that he recruited so much better after the Final Four, Al, and Big East membership - than he did when he came on board and we were in C-USA, 14-15, had the Old Gym - I just don't see it.

You're right, he recruited bad because he didn't land one of the TOP 5 players in the NBA.  Freshman routinely start right away if they're good enough, which Wes, DJ, and Jerel were.

Stop being stupid.

[Aughnanure]

Stop being stupid.

You are all being stupid.

Crean was great for Marquette while he was here, not only breathing new life into our program but also associating us up with the most visible and famous NBA player to come out of college in the past 15-20 years, as well as lining us up with Buzz, who I think will be a better coach, recruiter, person and representative for Marquette.

There is nothing bad Crean ever did to Marquette and Buzz has done absolutely nothing but impress everyone since day 1. So what the hell are you all always fighting about?? Just shut up for once!

[NersEllenson]

You're right, he recruited bad because he didn't land one of the TOP 5 players in the NBA.  Freshman routinely start right away if they're good enough, which Wes, DJ, and Jerel were.

Stop being stupid.

You are aware he couldn't have landed D-Wade if we were in the Big East correct?  You are aware that due to D-Wade's Prop 48/partial qualifier status, our competition for his services was Bradley University?  You are aware that the debate between me and Chicos pertained to TC's recruiting before and after the Al/Final Four/Big East inclusion - and Chicos implied how much easier/better it would be for TC after those milestones..when in reality..TC's recruiting stayed almost exactly the same.  The guy did a very good job at MU - I'm not saying he didn't..just pointing out the slight fallacy of Chico's argument.

So, before you call anyone stupid - please know what the hell you are talking about. 

[PBRme]

You are all being stupid.

Crean was great for Marquette while he was here, not only breathing new life into our program but also associating us up with the most visible and famous NBA player to come out of college in the past 15-20 years, as well as lining us up with Buzz, who I think will be a better coach, recruiter, person and representative for Marquette.

There is nothing bad Crean ever did to Marquette and Buzz has done absolutely nothing but impress everyone since day 1. So what the hell are you all always fighting about?? Just shut up for once!

+1ⁿ     n=∞

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

You are aware he couldn't have landed D-Wade if we were in the Big East correct?  You are aware that due to D-Wade's Prop 48/partial qualifier status, our competition for his services was Bradley University?  You are aware that the debate between me and Chicos pertained to TC's recruiting before and after the Al/Final Four/Big East inclusion - and Chicos implied how much easier/better it would be for TC after those milestones..when in reality..TC's recruiting stayed almost exactly the same.  The guy did a very good job at MU - I'm not saying he didn't..just pointing out the slight fallacy of Chico's argument.

So, before you call anyone stupid - please know what the hell you are talking about. 

To be fair, you have to include Mbakwe and Tyshawn Taylor as part of Crean's post McGuire Center recruiting.

I think in the long run the Al and the Big East would have to be advantages for any coach. It might not be blatantly obvious after a few seasons, but over time it would have been a great asset(s) and the players Crean got to come to MU would have reflected that.

[TheRock]

To be fair, you have to include Mbakwe and Tyshawn Taylor as part of Crean's post McGuire Center recruiting.

I think in the long run the Al and the Big East would have to be advantages for any coach. It might not be blatantly obvious after a few seasons, but over time it would have been a great asset(s) and the players Crean got to come to MU would have reflected that.

Buzz seems to be taking advantage of all these things and has brought in some good recruiting classes himself.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Buzz seems to be taking advantage of all these things and has brought in some good recruiting classes himself.

Agree. Very pleased with the talent coming in.

[ChicosBailBonds]

For f@#&'s sake you make this board completely unreadable. Must you constantly give verbal blowjobs to Crean? Indiana has a board if you want to go talk ad nauseum about his accomplishments. You know he hasn't been the coach since April '08 right?

I didn't bring him up and the ignore button is your friend, try using it.  Or simply skip my posts (and all the others of those that bring him up).

Yes, I realize he isn't the coach, which begs the question why so many people (not me) keep bringing him up, but I don't see you flying off the handle toward those folks....hmmm....

[TheRock]

Tom Crean



Oh no, why on earth would I even mention his name?

He's never done anything for MU

[NersEllenson]

To be fair, you have to include Mbakwe and Tyshawn Taylor as part of Crean's post McGuire Center recruiting.

I think in the long run the Al and the Big East would have to be advantages for any coach. It might not be blatantly obvious after a few seasons, but over time it would have been a great asset(s) and the players Crean got to come to MU would have reflected that.

That is a good point - both Taylor and Mbakwe were Top 100 guys - and I don't doubt that having the Al, Big East, and our run of now 5 straight NCAA appearances makes things easier as far as recruiting - but the original point still was before/after all of that..and before we landed about an equal number of Top 100 guys:  Merritt, Novak, Diener, Wade..as after...Wes, Rel, Dom, Zar (Mason transfer), Mbawke.  Basically there were 4 years before the Final Four, and 5 after - if you average things out..we roughly signed about 1 Top 100 kid every year of TC's regime...and there wasn't a significant accelration in Top 100 recruits coming to MU after all of the aforementioned milestones.  And..I'm NOT being critical of TC..just pointing out the reality.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Tom Crean



Oh no, why on earth would I even mention his name?

He's never done anything for MU

You make this board #$^&#$ unreadable

-sincerely, MU Basketball

[Pakuni]

I didn't bring him up and the ignore button is your friend, try using it.  Or simply skip my posts (and all the others of those that bring him up).

Yes, I realize he isn't the coach, which begs the question why so many people (not me) keep bringing him up, but I don't see you flying off the handle toward those folks....hmmm....

Mom! He started it!

Clearly you're blameless for the incessant bickering about Tom Crean around here.

[MarkCharles]

+1ⁿ     n=∞

I totally agree that aughnanure summed up the ridiculousness and pettiness of the Tom Crean bashing very well. But, 1 to the infinite power still only equals 1.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

That is a good point - both Taylor and Mbakwe were Top 100 guys - and I don't doubt that having the Al, Big East, and our run of now 5 straight NCAA appearances makes things easier as far as recruiting - but the original point still was before/after all of that..and before we landed about an equal number of Top 100 guys:  Merritt, Novak, Diener, Wade..as after...Wes, Rel, Dom, Zar (Mason transfer), Mbawke.  Basically there were 4 years before the Final Four, and 5 after - if you average things out..we roughly signed about 1 Top 100 kid every year of TC's regime...and there wasn't a significant accelration in Top 100 recruits coming to MU after all of the aforementioned milestones.  And..I'm NOT being critical of TC..just pointing out the reality.

Well, I'm not a recruiting expert, but, I will say this: Not all top 100 guys are equal, so I'm not sure it's as simple as saying the statement highlighted above. I understand from a macro level, but I don't think that's a good enough strategy here.

If we really want to examine the pre/post McGuire center bump, we'd have to look at RSCI rankings. Also, we have to take into account that once the money was there for the Al, that it could be used as a selling point. As early as March of 2002, we knew the facility would be built, so Crean could sell it to incoming recruits at that point.

So, I guess Crean recruited 00,01 and probably most of the 02 kids without the Al.

That's 3 seasons. He recruited 03,04,05,06,07 and 08 with the incoming guys knowing the Al was going to be built, or already built.

I don't know where this puts us exactly, I'm just trying to lay out the facts as we know them.


*As I re-read my post, my gut says that maybe our sample sizes just aren't big enough to draw any real conclusions, but I also know that message boards are not designed for that kind of chatter. I'm supposed to make a bold statement about this coach or that coach, and then you and I can argue about it for months, ruining several threads in the process.

[TheRock]

*As I re-read my post, my gut says that maybe our sample sizes just aren't big enough to draw any real conclusions, but I also know that message boards are not designed for that kind of chatter. I'm supposed to make a bold statement about this coach or that coach, and then you and I can argue about it for months, ruining several threads in the process.

Why the hell can't you just take a stand.  I hate you for not picking Buzz over TC.  How could you be so shortsighted?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Mom! He started it!

Clearly you're blameless for the incessant bickering about Tom Crean around here.

Not blameless, I just love it when someone goes on the attack and skips over the first 3, 6, 23 posters that say it and then choose one.  It somewhat degrades their attack a smidge.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Why the hell can't you just take a stand.  I hate you for not picking Buzz over TC.  How could you be so shortsighted?

Fine. I like Deane the best.

Now everybody can hate me.

[Mobot]

I totally agree that aughnanure summed up the ridiculousness and pettiness of the Tom Crean bashing very well. But, 1 to the infinite power still only equals 1.

It does not equal 1, it is undefined.

[willie warrior]

How the hell do many of these posts morph into a Tom Crean-Buzz feud?

Stick with the topic, people.

[bma725]

That is a good point - both Taylor and Mbakwe were Top 100 guys - and I don't doubt that having the Al, Big East, and our run of now 5 straight NCAA appearances makes things easier as far as recruiting - but the original point still was before/after all of that..and before we landed about an equal number of Top 100 guys:  Merritt, Novak, Diener, Wade..as after...Wes, Rel, Dom, Zar (Mason transfer), Mbawke.  Basically there were 4 years before the Final Four, and 5 after - if you average things out..we roughly signed about 1 Top 100 kid every year of TC's regime...and there wasn't a significant accelration in Top 100 recruits coming to MU after all of the aforementioned milestones.  And..I'm NOT being critical of TC..just pointing out the reality.

Wade and Zar were not consensus Top 100 recruits.  Both got some mentions, but not enough to make the consensus rankings.  If you're going to include guys like them that didn't make consensus rankings then you need to include guys like Odartey Blankson, Ron Howard, Karon Bradley, and Brandon Bell who also made at least one Top 100 list but not enough to be a consensus Top 100 player.